Current Events > Do you believe a bad '3rd base' blackjack player negatively affects you overall?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Spend a few hours at a Blackjack table, and you're bound to encounter someone griping about someone else's play. "I had to get off that table over there. He kept taking her damn bust card and was splitting 10s"

It's no secret that following basic strategy will improve your chances of winning---but can someone who isn't following basic strategy cause you to lose over the long term?

I say no, it doesn't overall affect your winnings or losses.

While it does make you cringe when you see someone hitting a 15 against a dealer's 6 up, and it does make people pay attention---I don't believe it affects me because I don't know the predetermined order of the cards to say it will or won't until the cards have been dealt.

I have an 18. The bad player could have a 15 and hit on a dealer's 6. Bad player draws a 6, gets 21. Dealer now flips her card over and has 6+8 = 14.. draws a 3 totaling to 17 and stands. If the bad player didn't take a hit, the dealer would have gotten the six, totaling 20, thus causing my 18 to lose.

Or it could be as simple as bad player takes a low card, so dealer takes the bust card.

And of course, people can play completely correctly and still cause the table to lose. Someone doubles on 11 like they're supposed to, takes a 10 to get 21, but now dealer gets a 5 to total 20 and everyone loses except the person who doubled.

What are your thoughts?
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i enjoy being the guy who irks the super serious players with my lack of accepted strategy
i don't know if i'm really having the effect you're describing, but i enjoy that it has a bothersome effect on them mentally
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Over the long term, yes it affects your probability of winning. Optimal blackjack play assumes others at the table are playing optimally as well I think
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Kazi1212 posted...

Over the long term, yes it affects your probability of winning. Optimal blackjack play assumes others at the table are playing optimally as well I think

I would have to disagree. Basic strategy is just based off of probability of an outcome given a certain hand you may have. For example, doubling on Soft 18 has a higher chance of profit than doubling on a soft 14 because there are more cards in the deck that will help/keep even a soft 18 hand than hurt.
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The Trent posted...

i enjoy being the guy who irks the super serious players with my lack of accepted strategy
i don't know if i'm really having the effect you're describing, but i enjoy that it has a bothersome effect on them mentally

Describe your lack of accepted strategy. And do you feel you're successful at it?

@The_Trent
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Even with 100% optimal strategy, unless you're counting cards (or outright cheating), you are going to lose money long-term at Blackjack... unless, of course, you're the dealer.

If you want to actually have a shot at winning in a for-money card game, you need to be looking at Poker, not Blackjack. The real against-other-players Poker, I mean, not video poker or the Poker-like games against the dealer.
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Capn Circus posted...

The Trent posted...

i enjoy being the guy who irks the super serious players with my lack of accepted strategy
i don't know if i'm really having the effect you're describing, but i enjoy that it has a bothersome effect on them mentally

Describe your lack of accepted strategy. And do you feel you're successful at it?

@The_Trent

not particularly, but i'm looking at it as a game as opposed to a way to make some money
as for describing it, it's probably best summed up by a picture of cartman dressed up like a street whore saying "i do what i want"
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Just because it worked in that situation does not mean it makes it the most probable outcome.

Its better to play by the book for everyone at the table.
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sktgamer_13dude posted...

Just because it worked in that situation does not mean it makes it the most probable outcome.

Its better to play by the book for everyone at the table.

Why do you believe it's better? No one knows what the next card will be. Any decision, good or bad, will affect the outcome of the table.
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Because the odds are in your favor if you play it by the book.

Also because hitting 12+ against a 5/6 is beyond stupid and those people deserve to be hated, unless theyre just completely uneducated about the game. They get one pass in that instance.
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sktgamer_13dude posted...

Because the odds are in your favor if you play it by the book.

Also because hitting 12+ against a 5/6 is beyond stupid and those people deserve to be hated, unless theyre just completely uneducated about the game. They get one pass in that instance.

Yes, I understand that. You give yourself the best statistical chances at winning if you play by the book.

What I'm saying is someone else not playing by the book doesn't affect my personal winnings in the long run.

Ex: Bad player hits his 16 on dealer 6, gets a 10 and busts. Dealer ends up drawing a 6, and gets 22.

The dealer would have busted regardless. The table won and only the bad player lost by not standing.
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What if the dealer would have busted if a player wasn't in the hand in the first place? That's why I only play games with 2 other players since 3 is my lucky number.

Capn Circus posted...

sktgamer_13dude posted...

Because the odds are in your favor if you play it by the book.

Also because hitting 12+ against a 5/6 is beyond stupid and those people deserve to be hated, unless theyre just completely uneducated about the game. They get one pass in that instance.

Yes, I understand that. You give yourself the best statistical chances at winning if you play by the book.

What I'm saying is someone else not playing by the book doesn't affect my personal winnings in the long run.

Ex: Bad player hits his 16 on dealer 6, gets a 10 and busts. Dealer ends up drawing a 6, and gets 22.

The dealer would have busted regardless. The table won and only the bad player lost by not standing.

The dealer would have busted regardless, but the probability he wouldve is less because the bad player hit on a dealer 6, at least thats how Im understanding it. By not hitting, the dealer would have potentially more cards to dodge that would bust him
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Again, it doesnt affect your outcome then.

But if you know what odds are, your odds are better if you play as close to the book as possible.

Just because you can continue to list scenarios where it worked out doesnt mean that youre right. Theres (obviously, since odds) more scenarios where it fucks you up. It also affects later hands since youre taking those cards away.

Its ok to make some playful hits now and then, but theres some things you just dont do. Hitting 12+ (assuming no ace) against 5/6 is stupid. Thats a fact.
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Anyone who actually thinks the addition of a suboptimal/rogue player is hurting their individual chance to win (and they're NOT counting cards) simply has no idea how probability works.
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Frostshock posted...

Anyone who actually thinks the addition of a suboptimal/rogue player is hurting their individual chance to win (and they're NOT counting cards) simply has no idea how probability works.

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the trent. when did you get back?
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Frostshock posted...

Anyone who actually thinks the addition of a suboptimal/rogue player is hurting their individual chance to win (and they're NOT counting cards) simply has no idea how probability works.

I dont care if you dont play every single hand by the book. There are some things you just dont do though. Splitting 10s is bad. Hitting 12+ on 5/6 is bad. Dont do those. Takes away cards from the deck too.
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sktgamer_13dude posted...

Takes away cards from the deck too.

If you weren't counting those cards, then this does absolutely nothing.
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sktgamer_13dude posted...

Again, it doesnt affect your outcome then.

But if you know what odds are, your odds are better if you play as close to the book as possible.

Just because you can continue to list scenarios where it worked out doesnt mean that youre right. Theres (obviously, since odds) more scenarios where it fucks you up. It also affects later hands since youre taking those cards away.

Its ok to make some playful hits now and then, but theres some things you just dont do. Hitting 12+ (assuming no ace) against 5/6 is stupid. Thats a fact.

I agree. The premise of my topic was other players playing incorrectly affecting my outcome, which I don't believe it does.
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Capn Circus posted...

sktgamer_13dude posted...

Again, it doesnt affect your outcome then.

But if you know what odds are, your odds are better if you play as close to the book as possible.

Just because you can continue to list scenarios where it worked out doesnt mean that youre right. Theres (obviously, since odds) more scenarios where it fucks you up. It also affects later hands since youre taking those cards away.

Its ok to make some playful hits now and then, but theres some things you just dont do. Hitting 12+ (assuming no ace) against 5/6 is stupid. Thats a fact.

I agree. The premise of my topic was other players playing incorrectly affecting my outcome, which I don't believe it does.

I meant it doesnt affect your outcome in that specific scenario.

What if someone with 15 hit, got a 10, and then that dealer flips his 6 to 16 and gets a 5. Wow, game over.

Hitting in completely wrong times takes cards away from the deck that a) could help you later on and b) affect that very hand.
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sktgamer_13dude posted...

Capn Circus posted...

sktgamer_13dude posted...

Again, it doesnt affect your outcome then.

But if you know what odds are, your odds are better if you play as close to the book as possible.

Just because you can continue to list scenarios where it worked out doesnt mean that youre right. Theres (obviously, since odds) more scenarios where it fucks you up. It also affects later hands since youre taking those cards away.

Its ok to make some playful hits now and then, but theres some things you just dont do. Hitting 12+ (assuming no ace) against 5/6 is stupid. Thats a fact.

I agree. The premise of my topic was other players playing incorrectly affecting my outcome, which I don't believe it does.

I meant it doesnt affect your outcome in that specific scenario.

What if someone with 15 hit, got a 10, and then that dealer flips his 6 to 16 and gets a 5. Wow, game over.

Hitting in completely wrong times takes cards away from the deck that a) could help you later on and b) affect that very hand.

Yeah, that can happen also. Every players move affects the outcome of the game. But I don't believe bad players affect the outcome negatively for me in the long term (which is what I said in my OP)

And yes, the cards taken away could help me specifically, or they couldn't.

It's hard to determine which cards would help who when you have 5 players at a table
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can you define some of these basic strategies

mistalightbulb posted...

can you define some of these basic strategies

-When the dealer has a 3, 4, 5, or 6 up---it's considered a bust card. You shouldn't hit if you have a 13+, unless you have a 12 and they have a 2 or 3 up.

- Always double if you have an 11. Always double if you have a 10 unless dealer is showing face card/10 or Ace.

Do a Google search for "Blackjack Basic Strategy" for more in-depth information.
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Capn Circus is correct.

The dealer's choices aren't impacted by what your fellow table players do.

Your probability overall is the same whether the dealer gives your table player a card first or hits himself first. Sure, from your perspective you can see that you would have won if he didn't, but the cards are just as likely to be in the opposite order.
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Pancake posted...

the trent. when did you get back?

eh?
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eh?

i mean, my bad if you never really left, but i hadn't seen you around in some time.
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yes i hate it when some dope sits down and starts playing with his gut versus the book. its the same reason why you aren't supposed to buy in until the shoe finishes. I only play blackjack with my group of friends. we find an open table and get to work. if luck isn't on our side then it is what it is. But I refuse to lose money thanks to some asshole who wanted to "have some fun" and blow through $500.
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EvalAngell posted...

yes i hate it when some dope sits down and starts playing with his gut versus the book. its the same reason why you aren't supposed to buy in until the shoe finishes. I only play blackjack with my group of friends. we find an open table and get to work. if luck isn't on our side then it is what it is. But I refuse to lose money thanks to some asshole who wanted to "have some fun" and blow through $500.

lol @ you for thinking any of that matters
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It doesn't matter. Gamblers and their weird personal rules and superstitions.
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Sativa_Rose posted...

EvalAngell posted...

yes i hate it when some dope sits down and starts playing with his gut versus the book. its the same reason why you aren't supposed to buy in until the shoe finishes. I only play blackjack with my group of friends. we find an open table and get to work. if luck isn't on our side then it is what it is. But I refuse to lose money thanks to some asshole who wanted to "have some fun" and blow through $500.

I'm a losing player and don't understand how the game works.

oh you don't say?
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EvalAngell posted...

Sativa_Rose posted...

EvalAngell posted...

yes i hate it when some dope sits down and starts playing with his gut versus the book. its the same reason why you aren't supposed to buy in until the shoe finishes. I only play blackjack with my group of friends. we find an open table and get to work. if luck isn't on our side then it is what it is. But I refuse to lose money thanks to some asshole who wanted to "have some fun" and blow through $500.

I'm a losing player and don't understand how the game works.

oh you don't say?

There's only one way to not be a losing player, and it is not impacted by the decisions of other players.
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OK man. That's why almost every dealer flat out warns you when you're about to do something against the book right? lol.
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sktgamer_13dude posted...

Because the odds are in your favor if you play it by the book.

Also because hitting 12+ against a 5/6 is beyond stupid and those people deserve to be hated, unless theyre just completely uneducated about the game. They get one pass in that instance.

Im almost positive the book says you hit a 12 against a 5/6.

Edit- according to the book I bought you do but it looks like most online sources say not to I'm gonna say I was probably wrong.
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EvalAngell posted...

OK man. That's why almost every dealer flat out warns you when you should and should not take card right? lol.

Your decision. That's completely different from you being affected by a different player's decision.
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I've seen people leave the table because someone didn't play by the book. It's usually the drunk ones or the newer players that drive them off.
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i'm saying that a dealer will warn you or any other player when you're about to make a bad decision. They'll go "it's your money" but they know the game inside and out and are trying to help you win. Because ideally it puts money in their pocket (tips).
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EvalAngell posted...

i'm saying that a dealer will warn you or any other player when you're about to make a bad decision. They'll go "it's your money" but they know the game inside and out and are trying to help you win. Because ideally it puts money in their pocket (tips).

I know, but that's a completely different discussion than whether or not another player's decision affects your own winrate. It doesn't.
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The amount of gambling fallacies on show in this thread is quite remarkable. Gain a real understanding of how stats work, and not this reverse engineered "if player x done this then player y could have had that" nonsense.

The smarter move would also simply be to not gamble as all games, including blackjack, are weighted in the house favour to some degree (though blackjack is one of the more even ones overall in the math).

ArchiePeck posted...

The amount of gambling fallacies on show in this thread is quite remarkable. Gain a real understanding of how stats work, and not this reverse engineered "if player x done this then player y could have had that" nonsense.

The smarter move would also simply be to not gamble as all games, including blackjack, are weighted in the house favour to some degree (though blackjack is one of the more even ones overall in the math).

With perfect play black jack and caps are around 50.5/49.5 and it can be fun. If you're a degenerate it's probably best to avoid but if you can just go to have fun and walk away when you need to i don't see a problem.
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Why is it bad to split 10s? >_>
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spanky1 posted...

Why is it bad to split 10s? >_>

20 is the second best possible hand, why would you split it for two shitty hands?
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Because you could get dat ace. >_>
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spanky1 posted...

Because you could get dat ace. >_>

nah fam it works the other way around. you wanna chase paint, not aces.
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Pancake posted...

eh?

i mean, my bad if you never really left, but i hadn't seen you around in some time.

i posted here like 10+ years ago and then i stopped for a long time in preference for other boards
now this is pretty much the only active board on the site
do you seriously remember me posting from way back when?
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EvalAngell posted...

yes i hate it when some dope sits down and starts playing with his gut versus the book. its the same reason why you aren't supposed to buy in until the shoe finishes. I only play blackjack with my group of friends. we find an open table and get to work. if luck isn't on our side then it is what it is. But I refuse to lose money thanks to some asshole who wanted to "have some fun" and blow through $500.

this is exactly the kind of guy i enjoy playing with
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The Trent posted...

this is exactly the kind of guy i enjoy playing with

i'd never play with a dickhead like you though so womp womp \_()_/

also I get that you probably enjoy trolling people at low limit $5 tables but if you did play rogue in the high rollers room there's a good chance you'd get knocked out.
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you must gamble professionally, i'm pretty impressed
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