Board 8 > *high fives ~70% of gamefaqs*

(+) Yeah! (+)

Peace___Frog posted...

I too love the pseudo-philosophical nature in ps1 era jrpg's. That doesn't make them good

Why "pseudo"?
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Im not exactly sure what philosophical concepts are genuinely explored in FFVII

Maybe the nature of individualism when you are built to be a clone but thats not exactly applicable to the real world
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They're pseudo because they're designed to make simpletons think that they're far more complex than they are. They do the equivalent of shouting the names of soccer players at the bar to try to impress nearby patrons with "knowledge" about the game.
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This is rich coming from someone who probably hasn't played anything from the past few years.

And take it from me. I have beaten over 1000 (close to 1100 now) games in the past 3 decades and probably most of the well acclaimed games to have been released.
Gaming has never been better. It is an absolute privilege to be a gamer in this day and age.

Leave it to Vlado's logic where being poor automatically makes games of this generation bad.

As much as I hate every other aspect of the game, FFXs gameplay is easily the best in the franchise. FFXII and FFXIII are personal opinions, but I loved their gameplay. FFVII is just menus and an ATB gauge, combined with a generic overworld map for random battles. Theres a reason the remake is switching to the use of action RPG elements.
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Vlado posted...

It explores fundamental philosophical considerations of humanity while still retaining essential rudimentary elements which are important for the medium. It is certainly no coincidence that such stories in games have only ever been crafted in Japan.

Tons of games do this, both Western and Japanese. Also this isn't a explanation of what makes it good because exploring 'fundamental philosophical considerations' can be doone poorly as well. Give examples and details, not this vague, wordy explanation of the goal of the story
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Peace___Frog posted...

They're pseudo because they're designed to make simpletons think that they're far more complex than they are. They do the equivalent of shouting the names of soccer players at the bar to try to impress nearby patrons with "knowledge" about the game.

Except the stories of Final Fantasy VII and Xenogears are very complex, coherent and well thought-out. They are anything but random or simple.

Axl_Rose_85 posted...

Gaming has never been better.

*waits for evidence*
*of course, no evidence to such a laughable claim ever comes*

Meanwhile, there are all the top games lists where games from the era I mentioned dominate.

How do you counter the fact that most Japanese developers (save for several big ones) have focused heavily on mobile, because that's the dominating platform in Japan? Are you going to explain how mobile games are better than Final Fantasy VII and the likes?

lol @ your cheeky attempt to rival Ertyu, though.

Espeon posted...

FFXs gameplay is easily the best in the franchise

Nah. It works well enough, but it's far from great. FFX-2 easily beats it, for instance.

MZero11 posted...

Tons of games do this, both Western and Japanese. Also this isn't a explanation of what makes it good because exploring 'fundamental philosophical considerations' can be doone poorly as well. Give examples and details, not this vague, wordy explanation of the goal of the story

Let's hear the Western games that even start to approach the complexity of Final Fantasy VII or Xenogears. Not even Deus Ex (by far the best story in a non-Japanese game, though I'm reserving a small possibility for Planescape: Torment whenever I get to it) reaches that level.
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Games are actually too cheap in a lot of cases, thus the need to sell DLC and season passes. So no, I reject the fact that games are too expensive.
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Shaduln posted...

Games are actually too cheap in a lot of cases, thus the need to sell DLC and season passes.

What "need"? There is no "need." If you try to make an argument about budgets of Western AAA titles, it is a simple fact that they are overblown WAY beyond proportion.

By selling DLC and season passes, Western "AAA" developers simply sucker as many people out of money as they can.
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Vlado posted...

Let's hear the Western games that even start to approach the complexity of Final Fantasy VII or Xenogears.

Gone Home
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Im surprised Vlado is holding FFVIIs story above FFT
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"Complex" is the last thing I'd call FFVII's story
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Man, FFVII is my favorite game but Vlado's ridiculous felatio of it is making me rethink that position.

Jakyl25 posted...

Im surprised Vlado is holding FFVIIs story above FFT

FFT is my second favorite FF and if the plot didn't derail so badly in the final chapters it would probably be #1.
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I would say FFIX does some philosophical stuff decently for a video game

Lunar: SSSC is a decent summation of the debate between free will vs determinism, and it actually takes a hard stand which is rare
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Vlado posted...

Let's hear the Western games that even start to approach the complexity of Final Fantasy VII or Xenogears. Not even Deus Ex (by far the best story in a non-Japanese game, though I'm reserving a small possibility for Planescape: Torment whenever I get to it) reaches that level.

1. You completely ignored the main point of that post
2. Complex =/= good
3. I don't even like Western games much, that wasn't the point
4. You still haven't explained what makes it good
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Vlado posted...

It is certainly no coincidence that such stories in games have only ever been crafted in Japan.

i don't get why it's no coincidence. why would the japanese be the best at telling stories by default?
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LapisLazuli posted...

I don't really get why you people find this fun.

It's like a JRPG
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Vlado posted...

What "need"?

Need as in if they don't get money then they won't exist

See: all the Japanese companies making mobile games instead of RPGs because they don't get money
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

Vlado posted...

It is certainly no coincidence that such stories in games have only ever been crafted in Japan.

i don't get why it's no coincidence. why would the japanese be the best at telling stories by default?

their skull shape lends itself to a large story lobe in the brain
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Jakyl25 posted...

Im surprised Vlado is holding FFVIIs story above FFT

They're close enough you could cite either. FFT dropped the ball a bit with the whole mysticism in the second half of the game. Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together does a better job keeping the story purely political.

MZero11 posted...

Vlado posted...

Let's hear the Western games that even start to approach the complexity of Final Fantasy VII or Xenogears. Not even Deus Ex (by far the best story in a non-Japanese game, though I'm reserving a small possibility for Planescape: Torment whenever I get to it) reaches that level.

1. You completely ignored the main point of that post
2. Complex =/= good
3. I don't even like Western games much, that wasn't the point
4. You still haven't explained what makes it good

1. No.
2. Complex + well-written (like with FFVII) >> simple + well-written. Of course FFVII is not as complex as Xenogears or Xenosaga, but quite complex by game standards.
3. OK? You said Western games did this, I wondered which ones.
4. Yes, I did. I won't be making a full plot analysis here, there are already enough written by smart enough fans, read one of those. It'll likely not be that far from my own views.

TheRock1525 posted...

Man, FFVII is my favorite game but Vlado's ridiculous felatio of it is making me rethink that position.

Glad to know I hold such power over my haters. :)

Mr Lasastryke posted...

Vlado posted...

It is certainly no coincidence that such stories in games have only ever been crafted in Japan.

i don't get why it's no coincidence. why would the japanese be the best at telling stories by default?

You can start here: https://www.insidejapantours.com/japanese-culture/
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Vlado posted...

They're close enough you could cite either. FFT dropped the ball a bit with the whole mysticism in the second half of the game. Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together does a better job keeping the story purely political.

FFVII is steeped in mysticism though, or is it cool because its consistent with it?
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It's better executed for sure. Though, even with its flaws, I'd say FFT is almost on the same level as FFVII. If Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together had as strong characters as Ramza and Delita, it would've been up there, too. Though the true branching paths give that game a whole new dimension of quality.
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Vlado posted...

2. Complex + well-written (like with FFVII) >> simple + well-written.

uh yeah, i can't take your stances on storytelling seriously when this is one of your points. some of the simplest stories in history are some of the best ones.
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Keep in mind that we are talking about games. If you can tell me a game with a simple story that's also an amazing story, that'd be nice to see where you're coming from.
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i'm not much of a game expert so i'll leave that to other people. but why do you use different standards for games than other storytelling media?
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Because games have been around for a much shorter period. It's not an easy medium to tell a story through - there's a lot of other things you need to do so that your game is a game and not a slideshow like some SJW-acclaimed "games" are.
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i mean, nobody is arguing that video games aren't different from other media. a game is different from a novel, which is different from a movie, which is different from an instruction manual, etc. etc. i just don't see why you would go "complex stories are always better than simple stories, yet this ONLY applies to games."
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Vlado posted...

Another explanation is Japan's shift towards mobile gaming.

Another one is the fact that small teams create better products, you can't expect something amazing from the current AAA titles with 1000s of people involved.

I can understand the desire for smaller teams. Smaller teams are free to take bigger risks and be more creative.

But why then would you shit on mobile gaming, which is the platform that has lots and lots and lots of small teams on it right now?
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

i mean, nobody is arguing that video games aren't different from other media. a game is different from a novel, which is different from a movie, which is different from an instruction manual, etc. etc. i just don't see why you would go "complex stories are always better than simple stories, yet this ONLY applies to games."

I mean, we've been talking in the context of games the whole topic, so...

metroid composite posted...

But why then would you shit on mobile gaming, which is the platform that has lots and lots and lots of small teams on it right now?

I didn't. But it's a fact it's a different beast from PC/console gaming, and unable to match by definition simply because of the controls.
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Vlado posted...

I mean, we've been talking in the context of games the whole topic, so...

uh, how is this a response to the post of mine you quoted? my question wasn't "why are you discussing storytelling in the context of games," my question was "why do you value complexity in storytelling so much in games, but not in other storytelling media?"
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You also put words into my mouth "this applies ONLY to games," I didn't say that. We're discussing games, and yes, great stories in games are hard to find, unlike in books, which is why I'm more lenient towards games.

If you want to continue the conversation, please tell me a game with a simple story that's also an amazing story, as that'd be help me see where you're coming from.
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Vlado posted...

If you want to continue the conversation, please tell me a game with a simple story that's also an amazing story, as that'd be help me see where you're coming from.

as i said i'm not a game expert but if you insist... kana: little sister, maybe? i never beat that game but going by what i did play, i thought the story was quite good.
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Vlado posted...

Keep in mind that we are talking about games. If you can tell me a game with a simple story that's also an amazing story, that'd be nice to see where you're coming from.

Undertale dood

Also Gorogoa

These stories are pure emotion and philosophy too, unlike your precious political Japanese stories. I know you hate non-political games, but that's why you're missing out on so much good stuff.
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f0olmor0n posted...

Undertale dood

It's a stretch to call it "simple." Furthermore, it's a good story, but hardly amazing.

f0olmor0n posted...

Gorogoa

Haven't played it, but the description sounds relatively interesting.

f0olmor0n posted...

These stories are pure emotion and philosophy too, unlike your precious political Japanese stories. I know you hate non-political games, but that's why you're missing out on so much good stuff.

I don't hate non-political games. It just so happens that most of the best games contain political nuances in their plot. But in Xenogears (the game with the BEST story in gaming) or Xenosaga, for example, politics are secondary at best.
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