Current Events > Why are they trying to nail the lootboxes as gambling?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Its an entire different thing.

When you try to nail lootboxes as gambling then the defendants can say the items cant be cashed out. Like skins and emotes. They remain in the game and locked into accounts.

The real problem is people not knowing what they are getting. People dont know the chances. In gambling, on a roulette table or a deck of cards in poker, you know the chances.

People would spend and spend, buying the lootboxes hoping to get their desired items but the chances for the specific item could be 2%. And if these numbers are displayed in the lootbox shops, im sure a lot of people would be put off and wont buy them.

Whats worse is that we dont even know if the lootboxs drop base on chance. It could be rules like X item only drops after 2000 boxes have been sold.

This is the real problem. People dont know the chances, or if they even use probability. People dont really know what they are buying. Its more like a lottery without an announced draw.
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Cuz fuck em that's why
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Well EA are going to get away with this again. We need new law/legislation in place just for these lootboxes. The chances of the contents have to be displayed. And there needs to be a system which the government can use to know that the companies are using the actual chances instead of lying.
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It doesn't fit the US definition of gambling, sure

But it absolutely uses the same methodology as gambling
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DarthAragorn posted...

It doesn't fit the US definition of gambling, sure

But it absolutely uses the same methodology as gambling

How is it any different from, say, Magic or Yugioh booster packs?

I will agree that they should be straight forward in regards to the chances of getting something desirable.
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It's a predatory practice that children are really affected by because they don't understand the concept of money. There's also the fact this practice also often means the game is designed to be harder unless you spend money as well. Tho really you probably be saving your card on your child's account.

Frankly I don't have an issue with it as by nature of gaming companies they will look for ways to make money and lootboxes make a lot of money. But I also would just prefer regular microtransactions where you buy what you want instead of getting a chance to get what you want.
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Well booster packs at least you know the cards are being printed. And they are physical objects, tangible. We should leave those for another day to discuss tho. They are just as bad imo.

But with lootboxes, I could be sitting behind a monitor and see all these boxes being purchased and not push the button for the rare item to drop until I feel like it. And you cant prove a thing.
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GATTJT posted...

How is it any different from, say, Magic or Yugioh booster packs?

"One Rare card in every pack"

Not so for lootboxes.
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people hate them so much they're willing to twist definitions just to get them banned
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GATTJT posted...

DarthAragorn posted...

It doesn't fit the US definition of gambling, sure

But it absolutely uses the same methodology as gambling

How is it any different from, say, Magic or Yugioh booster packs?

I will agree that they should be straight forward in regards to the chances of getting something desirable.

Drafting in Magic at the very least is pretty huge and there are ways to buy specific cards you want.
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It is gambling in the dictionary sense. Should it be viewed the same as things like casinos and sports betting? I don't know.
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The other practice lootboxes are often associated with is, is the fact you usually buy in-game currency to buy the lootboxes. So $5 might buy you 1 lootbox, but now you also have some spare currency left over which means you would have to spend more money to clear yourself back to 0. Plus harder to understand how much a lootbox cost when you aren't looking at the exact currency either.

Then it's also a way around gambling laws as you aren't directly spending money to buy a chance for an item. You are buying the currency which lets you do that.
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electricbugs2 posted...

GATTJT posted...

How is it any different from, say, Magic or Yugioh booster packs?

"One Rare card in every pack"

Not so for lootboxes.

they don't actually guarantee that, though. only the total number of cards.
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GATTJT posted...

How is it any different from, say, Magic or Yugioh booster packs?

Because there's a 2nd hand market where you can buy them directly, eliminating the random chance percentages.

Because it's nowhere near as prevalent in so many games where you're 2 clicks from buying a lootbox and has easy accessibility to younger kids.

Because it doesn't carry the same psychological rush you get when you open a bunch of lootboxes in succession like you were playing the slot machine in a casino which encourages buying more lootboxes that are far easier to purchase and more accessible to buy compared to running back to a store to buy another booster pack.

Why are you defending lootboxes?
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Medussa posted...

electricbugs2 posted...

GATTJT posted...

How is it any different from, say, Magic or Yugioh booster packs?

"One Rare card in every pack"

Not so for lootboxes.

they don't actually guarantee that, though. only the total number of cards.

It probably helps that cards are resellable. Hell, I've pulled Magic cards worth over $100. Theres some sort of tangible value to the cards when theres absolutely none to digital accessories.
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Cobra1010 posted...

Why are they trying to nail the lootboxes as gambling?

Because that's what they are. At the very least they're simulated gambling using all the tricks real casinos and the like use and cost real money. So close enough.
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It's not gambling. It doesn't fit any of the criteria. That's not to say it's good or bad, but anyone arguing, 'well, it uses the same methodology' or 'it may have the same psychological effects' is guilty of stretching the definition to fit their agenda. You are not playing a game of chance, you know what you could possibly get, you can't 'lose' your money, you don't actually own anything after that, and there is no way to make money or profit from it. It's no different than Kinder Surprises or those quarter toy machines.

The reality is that it is a shitty tactic, but it reeks of bitter and shortsighted gamers trying to get back at companies like EA, especially since it just showed up as a problem after Battlefront II. I've argued before that it's shortsighted because we've worked a long time to establish that games can self-police and that they can be made for people of all ages. To invite the government back in because we didn't get our own way is just letting the genie out of the bottle.

People argue that 'whales' are responsible, which I don't see any evidence of. They argue that kids with their parent's credit cards are to blame, but again, that is the responsibility of the parent, not the government. I just don't see why this is suddenly a problem. I think they are scummy, and that's why I don't buy them.

Dash_Harber posted...

It doesn't fit any of the criteria.

It fits most of the criteria.

Dash_Harber posted...

You are not playing a game of chance

Yes. You are.

Dash_Harber posted...

you know what you could possibly get

As you do when gambling.

Dash_Harber posted...

but it reeks of bitter and shortsighted gamers trying to get back at companies like EA,

...no.

Dash_Harber posted...

especially since it just showed up as a problem after Battlefront II

That just finally got it wide attention and news headlines because Disney.

Dash_Harber posted...

I've argued before that it's shortsighted because we've worked a long time to establish that games can self-police

This has only been getting worse! Clearly they can't.
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Sir Will posted...

It fits most of the criteria.

No, it doesn't. Is there any possibility of loss? No. You are purchasing something.

Is there any chance to gain money or property? No. What you get is only for use within the game, you don't actually own anything, and you can't make any money off of it without going into the black market.

Is there any actual 'game' involved? Nope.

It doesn't fit anything. The only thing it fits is an element of randomization, but that is hardly exclusive to gambling. If you are arguing that it is a gamble in the sense that it's random and you might not get what you want, that's equivocation. The term 'gamble' is used in our venacular for a number of situations, even those not involved in games of chance.

For example, "I gambled on a fart and shit my pants" does not mean that you need to contact the local gaming authority and make sure that you are licensed for that.

You guys never actually discuss anything, though. Any time I bring this up you just plug your ears and go, "nope" to everything I say without even making an argument.

Sir Will posted...

That just finally got it wide attention and news headlines because Disney.

So you are saying that there was a secret, underground government war on lootboxes before the Battlefront II controversy that we all just don't know about?

Dash_Harber posted...

So you are saying that there was a secret, underground government war on lootboxes before the Battlefront II controversy that we all just don't know about?

Wow you're dense.
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Sir Will posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

So you are saying that there was a secret, underground government war on lootboxes before the Battlefront II controversy that we all just don't know about?

Wow you're dense.

Or, possibly, your sarcasm detector is on the fritz.

They're nearly identical to slots though...
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pres_madagascar posted...

They're nearly identical to slots though...

the difference being that lootboxes give you something, even garbage, every time. slots don't have to give you anything
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powerman1426 posted...

Cuz fuck em that's why

prince_leo posted...

pres_madagascar posted...

They're nearly identical to slots though...

the difference being that lootboxes give you something, even garbage, every time. slots don't have to give you anything

And that slots give you a chance to win money or win back your money.

prince_leo posted...

pres_madagascar posted...

They're nearly identical to slots though...

the difference being that lootboxes give you something, even garbage, every time. slots don't have to give you anything

So if they always pay out a penny, that makes them ok and not gambling?
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I don't see why the government should get involved. Let the idiots spend all their money, they earned it.
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It is the biggest cancer the gaming industry has ever seen.

It LITERALLY has the potential to cause a crash
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@Dash_Harber posted...

It's not gambling. It doesn't fit any of the criteria.

http://www.tascl.org/uploads/4/9/3/3/49339445/drummond_sauer_nhb_2018_loot_boxes.pdf
https://platinumparagon.wordpress.com/2017/11/16/the-psychology-of-loot-boxes-and-microtransactions/
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Sad_Face posted...

@Dash_Harber posted...

It's not gambling. It doesn't fit any of the criteria.

http://www.tascl.org/uploads/4/9/3/3/49339445/drummond_sauer_nhb_2018_loot_boxes.pdf
https://platinumparagon.wordpress.com/2017/11/16/the-psychology-of-loot-boxes-and-microtransactions/

But it's still not gambling, even if it scratches some of the same itches. Like, coffee and alcohol can both be addictive and people can behave similarly when deprived of both, that doesn't mean they should be regulated the same. It doesn't fit the criteria. If it fits something else, that's fine, but we shouldn't be stretching existing institutions to try and deal with new ones.

My other problem with this is that you have to use a credit card to buy lootboxes, but you also need to be an adult, which makes the 'think of the children!' argument sort of fall flat.

Dash_Harber posted...

But it's still not gambling

READ THE GODDAMN PAPER
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Sad_Face posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

But it's still not gambling

READ THE GODDAMN PAPER

And if I don't agree with them ... ?

Dash_Harber posted...

And if I don't agree with them ... ?

You're free to have your own opinion and disagree with them if you want, but do not spout ignorant lines like "it's not gambling". There's no excuse for you to not be informed as to why various governments across the world are investigating lootboxes and are treating lootboxes seriously, to the point where they are threatening to penalize big name AAA companies for violations, if you plan on taking a stance on this issue and are vocal about it.
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Sad_Face posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

And if I don't agree with them ... ?

You're free to have your own opinion and disagree with them if you want, but do not spout ignorant lines like "it's not gambling". There's no excuse for you to not be informed as to why various governments across the world are investigating lootboxes and are treating lootboxes seriously, to the point where they are threatening to penalize big name AAA companies for violations, if you plan on taking a stance on this issue and are vocal about it.

"You are free to disagree, but don't you dare disagree."

Dash_Harber posted...

"You are free to disagree, but don't you dare disagree."

There's a way to get your opinions across without making incorrect claims. A person can believe in the flat earth theory but they still have to acknowledge that the formulas and laws for classical mechanics is predicated on the Earth being round.
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Sad_Face posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

"You are free to disagree, but don't you dare disagree."

There's a way to get your opinions across without making incorrect claims. A person can believe in the flat earth theory but they still have to acknowledge that the formulas and laws for classical mechanics is predicated on the Earth being round.

And that's what I did before you quoted everything with 'no' beside it. I said, "it's not gambling because ... ".

However, you've been unabashedly rude and obnoxious this whole time, so we'll just have to agree to disagree at this point.

Dash_Harber posted...

And that's what I did before you quoted everything with 'no' beside it. I said, "it's not gambling because ... ".

You said flat out stated that lootboxes don't fit gambling criteria and I linked you an academic paper point out how it fits the criteria. Don't try to hide behind the "Sad's being obnoxious so I won't bother" excuse when you didn't bother read the paper in the first place. There's a difference in saying "I don't believe in X" and trying to make claims as if they're true. You're doing the latter.
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Dash_Harber posted...

No, it doesn't. Is there any possibility of loss? No. You are purchasing something.

If I purchase something worth $1 for $10 I'm still losing money.

If I instead have a chance to get $1 or $2, now I'm also gambling in addition to losing money.

Dash_Harber posted...

Is there any chance to gain money or property? No. What you get is only for use within the game, you don't actually own anything, and you can't make any money off of it without going into the black market.

Illegal gambling is still gambling and there are a ton of criminal charges and law that deal exclusively with unregulated, unlicensed, illegal gambling.

Dash_Harber posted...

Is there any actual 'game' involved? Nope.

There's more game than there is in something like roulette or slots.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

If I purchase something worth $1 for $10 I'm still losing money.

If I instead have a chance to get $1 or $2, now I'm also gambling in addition to losing money.

Except, again, what you are buying is effectively worthless. You can't 'win' anything. You simply buy a randomized piece of content. You can't 'lose' and you can't 'win'. Spending your money on shitty worthless weapon skins, while stupid and exploitative, is not gambling. It's no different than the guys that shelled out mint for horse armor in oblivion.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Illegal gambling is still gambling and there are a ton of criminal charges and law that deal exclusively with unregulated, unlicensed, illegal gambling.

Of course, but that isn't what we are talking about. The black market absolutely should still be illegal, but it's against policy no regardless of how the debate turns out.

Tyranthraxus posted...

There's more game than there is in something like roulette or slots.

Not in the lootbox feature

do some of yall work for ea or do you just like drinking corporate jizz?
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Dash_Harber posted...

Except, again, what you are buying is effectively worthless. You can't 'win' anything. You simply buy a randomized piece of content. You can't 'lose' and you can't 'win'. Spending your money on shitty worthless weapon skins, while stupid and exploitative, is not gambling. It's no different than the guys that shelled out mint for horse armor in oblivion.

Guys who bought horse armor in Oblivion got horse armor with 100% frequency, so it's not gambling. Stupid, maybe, but not gambling.

Dash_Harber posted...

Of course, but that isn't what we are talking about. The black market absolutely should still be illegal, but it's against policy no regardless of how the debate turns out.

But right now selling accounts isn't regulated or illegal. It's just against the tos and companies always turn a blind eye to it anyway because someone willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a tricked out account is going to be a huge in game spender.

Of course without it being gambling, you can't get to this point.

Dash_Harber posted...

Not in the lootbox feature

There's a lot more to these games than the loot boxes. When you're paying slots, that's all there is. There's nothing else. If you're paying a game like poker, which isn't purely random, imagine if you could just pay the dealer a few extra chips to toss a card in your current hand for a new one.

That would be the most fucked game in the casino and no one would play it.
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people have no willpower

and some parents are dumb and don't monitor what their kids are doing online
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thronedfire2 posted...

people have no willpower

and some parents are dumb and don't monitor what their kids are doing online

Kids is smoke and mirrors to disguise the fact that most of the victims are adults.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

Guys who bought horse armor in Oblivion got horse armor with 100% frequency, so it's not gambling. Stupid, maybe, but not gambling.

And people who buy lootboxes know 100% that they are getting some content. Since it all has the exact same value (i.e. nothing) it's no different. It's a scam to get you to buy more, but it's not gambling.

Tyranthraxus posted...

But right now selling accounts isn't regulated or illegal. It's just against the tos and companies always turn a blind eye to it anyway because someone willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a tricked out account is going to be a huge in game spender.

Of course without it being gambling, you can't get to this point.

I don't think that games need the government to regulate what is 'fair' and who spends real money. Being against the TOS is all it really needs.

Tyranthraxus posted...

There's a lot more to these games than the loot boxes. When you're paying slots, that's all there is. There's nothing else. If you're paying a game like poker, which isn't purely random, imagine if you could just pay the dealer a few extra chips to toss a card in your current hand for a new one.

That would be the most fucked game in the casino and no one would play it.

So it's the same as slots because it's different than slots? Again, having a degree of randomness doesn't instantly mean gambling. You need the chance to win or lose money or property. It's the same as quarter toy machines, or Kinder Surprises, or playing cards.

thronedfire2 posted...

people have no willpower

and some parents are dumb and don't monitor what their kids are doing online

I still don't believe that it's all kids keeping the industry alive. That seems ridiculous without anything backing it up, and, again, that's the parent's responsibility.

It IS gambling
Plain and simple
Only you're not even gambling for real money, so it's stupid in addition to being a vice (which... is stupid i guess)

not to mention the only reason it exists is to toke your dopamine response nice so you return to playing the game over and over and over again
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Dash_Harber posted...

I still don't believe that it's all kids keeping the industry alive.

kids and people like that CEman who spent 4000 bucks on that FE mobile game
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Dash_Harber posted...

And people who buy lootboxes know 100% that they are getting some content. Since it all has the exact same value (i.e. nothing) it's no different. It's a scam to get you to buy more, but it's not gambling.

And if you don't know what you're going to get what's that called?

Dash_Harber posted...

I don't think that games need the government to regulate what is 'fair' and who spends real money. Being against the TOS is all it really needs.

You're wrong. These things cause actual harm like any other addiction and they should be treated as such.

Dash_Harber posted...

So it's the same as slots because it's different than slots? Again, having a degree of randomness doesn't instantly mean gambling. You need the chance to win or lose money or property. It's the same as quarter toy machines, or Kinder Surprises, or playing cards.

I made the argument that they're the same as slots. You did.

When you buy kinder surprise you're buying chocolate. The toy is included free.

Crane games / gumball machine toys are absolutely gambling and those are absolutely targeted towards kids.

Cards has already been discussed at length. You can just buy the cards you want. Some games, like anything made by fantasy flight games don't even have random cards. The contents of the pack are known before you buy it.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

thronedfire2 posted...

people have no willpower

and some parents are dumb and don't monitor what their kids are doing online

Kids is smoke and mirrors to disguise the fact that most of the victims are adults.

http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2570-how-young-gamers-can-quietly-ruin-their-parents-finances.html

I know its cracked but theres plenty of source links in the article

and obviously most "victims" are adults, but kids buying shit with a parents CC does happen. its not just loot boxes and skins though
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Tyranthraxus posted...

And if you don't know what you're going to get what's that called?

Yes, a gamble, however, you are using equivocation here; the gambling we are talking about is a game of chance where money is wagered on the chance for more valuable money or property. The other means, "any chance". Again, if I said, "I gambled on a fart and shit my pants", that doesn't mean it's a literal game of chance.

Tyranthraxus posted...

You're wrong. These things cause actual harm like any other addiction and they should be treated as such.

Okay, here's my problem with that;
- Even if it is harmful, banning lootboxes is the same as banning gambling, or alcohol, or anything else that can be addictive. It doesn't work.
- Children shouldn't be able to do it, anyway, so the 'think of the children!' argument holds no water.

Tyranthraxus posted...

I made the argument that they're the same as slots. You did.

I actually didn't. There must be some miscommunication there, because I have been saying they are nothing alike this whole time.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Cards has already been discussed at length. You can just buy the cards you want. Some games, like anything made by fantasy flight games don't even have random cards. The contents of the pack are known before you buy it.

And the content of the lootboxes is known to you before you buy the lootbox. How is that different?