Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ 2B vs Dante

(+) Yeah! (+)

2B has challenged Dante to a fight! Location of the fight: Fuyuki Bridge - A long bridge connecting Shinto and Miyama City. All areas of the bridge, and the river below, are accessible, though the surroundings of the bridge have a powerful bounded field in place, preventing escape. Attackers will start on the Miyama end, with defenders starting by the Shinto exit.. Which side will win?

Guidelines

- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of a pre-selected plan of battle.
- "Broken" refers to a lot of things, including insta-death, auto-effects, a variety of status effects (e.g., Imp, Silence, Stop, *not* Poison), and revival. Unless stated otherwise, nobody has them, though do use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting

- Bold your votes (using bold HTML tags).
- You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
- Leaders cannot vote for their own teams (and players from the same pool may not vote as well), but they are free to argue their case.
- If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
- This match will end in 24 hours.
- The following conventions are in use for match topics: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/570224-mercs/75290480/878106427

2B is as she appears in NieR: Automata, equipped with the Virtuous Contract, Treaty, Dignity and Grief weapons. She is equipped with all of the System chips, Shock Wave, Continuous Combo, Overclock, Bullet Detonation, Evasive System and Offensive Heal, all of which are maxed out, with the exception of Offensive Heal which is at +6. She is accompanied by Pod 042, which has been fully upgraded with Pods A, B, and C and has access to all Pod programs. Self-Destruction is not enabled.

~VS~

Dante Sparda is as he appears across the Devil May Cry series, with full access to all of his weapons, styles and abilities, including his canon regen, except for special DTs (such as Majin Devil Trigger, Sparda DT, etc.), Kalina Ann and Yamato. Quicksilver and Doppelganger (as well as any other duplication/timehax abilities) will function as they do in the gameplay, as will his Devil Trigger.

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This cannot continue. The demon hunter must be slain! FIGHT!
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I just started Nier Automata so I'm hesitant to really look too much up at the moment, but I'm definitely curious
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dante solos
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The terrain here favours 2B immensely. Not only does Fuyuki bridge provide her with an immense advantage due to range, all three of her pods can do immense work with lock-on cluster missiles that explode into mines, lock-on laser beams that ricochet off of whatever they touch up to six times each and a gattling cannon from her pod.

Along with this she can also utilize pod programs to even things up from range, from creating a gigantic AoE of slow that brings enemies to an absolute crawl, throwing bombs from afar and creating large areas of gravity. Along with in melee, creating a shield that gives her invulnerability to melee (or ranged, but not quite a good idea considering another ability mentioned later), creating decoys that effectively taunt opponents and mirage, one that turns her invisible (and invincible) for a short time to attack everyone in a wide AoE.

And if Dante attempts to retaliate with ranged attacks? He has to deal with this not only actively speeding 2B akin to Witch-Time on dodge, for both melee and ranged attacks and if she hits any of her projectiles with her own or with melee, they explode and deal damage to Dante as well.

Along with this, as seen in the battle itself 2B has the ability to steal weaponry utilizing her Pod as well. Even if that is their opponent's arm. Through this if at any point Dante is disarmed, her Pods should be able to reclaim his weaponry for her usage, which as seen in the game itself, 2B is proficient in spears, all sorts of swords, fists/bracers and gigantic robotic arms, controlled telekinetically by an unexplained magic that can have her weapons acting even autonomously for a few moments.

All of which, on top of that, heals her. Each and every single strike, ranged hit or otherwise will convert damage dealt into her own. Which considering her durability, to be able to be struck by gigantic robotic apartment buildings like an Engel, see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Uqu2Icx3Bg" data-time="&start=0

And of course, if you skipped to the end and just want to see some good old gameplay, here's some Donguri perfecting the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNp2zhbQ6ig" data-time="
Might want to skip a few of the scenes on this one if you want to avoid spoilers!

so from what little I've played, I noticed that if you're on easy, you get things like Auto-Dodge. I assume she'll have those as well

because an automatic melee teleporty dodge that she doesn't have to think about while fighting seems pretty useful against Dante
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Johnbobb posted...

because an automatic melee teleporty dodge that she doesn't have to think about while fighting seems pretty useful against Dante

Mercs as far as I know typically goes under the assumption that the game (and the merc) is played to the best of their ability, unless bold says otherwise. Under this assumption she should be able to dodge as if she had auto-dodge on, or better.

I feel like Dante wouldn't have any trouble against even the opening machine boss and she gets wrecked so
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pjbasis posted...

I feel like Dante wouldn't have any trouble against even the opening machine boss and she gets wrecked so

Dante gets wrecked by Vergil at the start of his game. He then evolves and grows stronger than him across the course of the game itself.

Considering progression, chips, weapons and otherwise are completely locked to you in the prologue, might it also be assumed that 2B evolves over her campaign as well? Especially considering you fight the same models of Engels again with zero issues later.

https://nierautomata.wiki.fextralife.com/Support+Chips

2B does not have all these chips. Only the ones listed in her profile. You can look around and confirm what chips she gets if you need to.
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I dunno man, once upon a time I recorded myself playing Madness Returns for a match and people decreed my teleport spamming as "Not something Alice would do"
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2B looks significantly less impressive in her cutscenes than she does in gameplay, while Dante has the best of both worlds.

I don't think 2B comes close to winning this anyway. The YorHa androids are skilled and somewhat durable, but Dante is absolutely faster and they don't have the sheer damage output to break through his crazy regeneration. I don't think most of their gimmicks amount to much here either - most of the Pod programs aren't going to do much and the auto-dodge stuff is preettty gameplay-y.
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KamikazePotato posted...

2B looks significantly less impressive in her cutscenes than she does in gameplay, while Dante has the best of both worlds.

I don't think 2B comes close to winning this anyway. The YorHa androids are skilled and somewhat durable, but Dante is absolutely faster and they don't have the sheer damage output to break through his crazy regeneration. I don't think most of their gimmicks amount to much here either - most of the Pod programs aren't going to do much and the auto-dodge stuff is preettty gameplay-y.

She doesn't have autododge, but she does have the timehacks of overclock - I made sure to give her those specifically. Doesn't 2B kill apartment-building sized enemies too? That's something Dante hasn't ever done outside of special powerups.

(Note that I haven't played automata so I legit don't know. More context is appreciated here!)
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2B kills apartment-building sized enemies with significant help from flight units (basically really small Gundams they can pilot) and 9S' hacking and ingenuity. She might be able to take on some of the DMC bosses but it would be a lot harder for her than it is for Dante.

Also it's a shame that 9S' hacking doesn't work in a world where you're fighting 99% robots, because he totally deserves to be here over 2B. I'm tempted to say add him as a Mercs character and say his hacking works on living beings too (somehow) because man that would be fun to see.
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Alany posted...

pjbasis posted...

I feel like Dante wouldn't have any trouble against even the opening machine boss and she gets wrecked so

Dante gets wrecked by Vergil at the start of his game. He then evolves and grows stronger than him across the course of the game itself.

Considering progression, chips, weapons and otherwise are completely locked to you in the prologue, might it also be assumed that 2B evolves over her campaign as well? Especially considering you fight the same models of Engels again with zero issues later.

Sure but Virgil is far more impressive than Engels. So even beating them later Dante still wins.

I know its not her final boss or anything either, but Dante is depicted having zero problems with any boss in the game besides that. 2B has lot more struggles.
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dante SOLOS
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Doesn't 2B kill apartment-building sized enemies too?

Going by novelizations, screen plays and other tertiary content, Yorha typically expects a 20,000 to 1 K/D ratio for androids. One of the stage play moments has a single android destroy 100k Robots in one shot from a gun, to give an example of how strange the scale is from game to lore.

For a more direct feat, A2 an outdated model tanks a self destruction that levels Mt. Kaala, a real world mountain, something low yield nuclear weapons have issues with.

Lore for Nier:Automata is weird. The post-game boss in the game itself was even going to destroy the entire planet.

Without her frame?

Dante Solos
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KamikazePotato posted...

2B looks significantly less impressive in her cutscenes than she does in gameplay, while Dante has the best of both worlds.

I don't think 2B comes close to winning this anyway. The YorHa androids are skilled and somewhat durable, but Dante is absolutely faster and they don't have the sheer damage output to break through his crazy regeneration. I don't think most of their gimmicks amount to much here either - most of the Pod programs aren't going to do much and the auto-dodge stuff is preettty gameplay-y.

Bringing this back up, on a related note, would it make any difference if 2B had her chip that gives her 80% damage reduction KP? Or would you treat that as ignorable gameplay even if baked into the writeup?
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The only thing I'd argue that has a legit good showing is the laser pod program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWeOs7wpu70#t=4m35s

Like, total immolation of a target that big is the only thing that shows me the kinda durability that Automata enemies seem to possess, unless you directly compare Emil gameplay lasers to his NieR cutscene lasers.

My issue with this fight is more 2B's recklessness. She gets beat up a LOT in Automata despite her massive upsides in potential defensive combat, and even if she can analyze Dante's regen with pod support, I don't think she'd be able to get her own regen up quickly enough to stop Dante from eventually killing her. I do think it's an actual FIGHT, at the very least, before Dante solos.
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Honestly, I'm not convinced Dante takes it that cleanly. Like Dante is super cocky and reckless too, and unlike 2B, he doesn't heal from the damage he dishes out. If she gets any kind of upper hand she can punish him harshly - and Evasive System and Overclock give her a much less limited version of Quicksilver that will force Dante to abandon most of his toolset. Using guns when your opponent gets bullettime off you shooting them is a terrible idea and it means 2B's pod can maul him while she fights him up close.
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Another showing of the laser, for reference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSgCzUBCx64" data-time="&start=960

Within her dodge time, 2B can have all three pods deliver a volley of these straight into someone. Regeneration or not, it's going to hurt.

... oh shit it's that good? God C-Route is such a blur to me outside of the tower.

Yeah 2B solos. Dante doing something stupid to open is almost a guarantee, causes Tubes to close the distance, laser and passive homing missiles are gonna screw with Dante's style.

Honestly 2B might be the single best one-on-one duelist. I forget all the scenes where she gets screwed are all her getting ganged up on or EMP AoE's.
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Kamekguy posted...

Yeah 2B solos.

Give some recognition to the Pod at least!

One thing I will respect him for is his ability to play Danmaku though, the homing and reflecting laser bullets are frankly rather crazy, as is the cluster missiles (into mines) the pod can deliver, it gives her a ludicrous amount of versatility.

That's even outside of the massive pod laser itself. Which is probably magical, but Yoko Taro's sparse on the details there.

Those lasers seem pretty irrelevant in this match in particular. Definition of telegraphed death beams. Dante isn't going to facetank them because they look like death beams so I don't see a chance of them hitting him.
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Kamekguy posted...

Honestly 2B might be the single best one-on-one duelist.

9S is stronger, and A2 is stronger than both of them
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Lopen posted...

Those lasers seem pretty irrelevant in this match in particular. Definition of telegraphed death beams. Dante isn't going to facetank them because they look like death beams so I don't see a chance of them hitting him.

2B does have timehax of her own, and much more spammable than Dante's. I think that's the idea for how they become relevant? Fight until he runs out of DT gauge for Quicksilver, then beam him to the face while he's busy fending off 2B's melee?
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Depends on how much speed up it actually gives her.

"Timehax" doesn't automatically make something unable to be dodged. A slow ass death beam in like a 2x time slow for example is still kinda slow. It also doesn't mean Dante needs to use Quicksilver to keep up well enough to not just get exploded depending on what the slow actually is.

Keep in mind Dante fights Geryon who gives him Quicksilver without him being able to use it and is able to at least not be blown up while the horse is time slowing, even if mustering offense is difficult.
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KamikazePotato posted...

Kamekguy posted...

Honestly 2B might be the single best one-on-one duelist.

9S is stronger, and A2 is stronger than both of them

Well yes, but I dunno how you'd perfectly quantify A2's taunt without it being pure gameplay and 9S is an absolute god best boy
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Lopen posted...

Depends on how much speed up it actually gives her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajx5NhIiB44" data-time="
This is overclock. Lasts for 6 seconds when she dodges a hit. Automatically comes into play whenever a projectile comes near her

Along with this, she has AoE slows which can be seen here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBeR_MPX5VE" data-time="&start=302

Honestly my big thing with death laser is that Pod is a separate entity from 2B who's capable of unleashing it whilst 2B is doing another thing. It's not "2B stops to charge her death laser in the slow time", it's "gattling gun fire stops for a hot second while 2B is already in the slowed time and locking swords with Dante while laser charges and is fired."

It's the constant pressure that the pod provides that really leans me toward her, more than the time slow that comes from dodging. Neutralizing Dante's projectile game and then hitting back with her own that he has no answer for AND that she doesn't have to dedicate focus on... I'd need to see what Dante would do to get out of that, as that seems like an inevitability to me, and a potential game ender in a lot of situations.
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Dante Stomps.

Dante is faster, way more durable, and much better armed. With access to all his weapons and styles, Dante has more than enough versatility and abilities to easily counter anything 2B throws at him, all while keeping it Stylish. 2B isn't a slouch by any means, but she's got nothing that's gonna overpower or stop Dante.
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Video is actually pretty useful. Gives you a decent idea of what the actual time slow is. Especially with youtube's 2x speed feature. I'd estimate it's somewhere between 2.5x-3x. You watch it in 2x and you see the robots are only moving a bit slower than they normally do. Would guess it's somewhere over half their normal speed (keep in mind they're kinda slow to begin with). 4x would be an overshoot I think.

I also don't think 3x speed death beams are in the realm of stuff that can hit Dante honestly (assuming they even get full benefits from the time slow-- if they're firing from external pods this isn't a given). Not if he's trying to dodge them, and they look very imposing enough that I feel like he would.

Honestly the big thing I'm feeling might tip this is I don't think Dante's going to quicksilver right away and instead just try and dodge normally as it's not really a goto technique of his historically and she's going to be time slowing frequently so he knows he can't just use it all the time. Now sure he'll takes some hits as a result but he can survive these. I think the moment he does flip the switch to Quicksilver he can really make it count and wreck 2B really hard due to the surprise factor.
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Popcorn_Fairy posted...

Dante has more than enough versatility and abilities to easily counter anything 2B throws at him, all while keeping it Stylish

How would he counter constant bullet pressure, AoE slows and artillery grade pinpoint lasers from the pod, while 2B is up in front attacking then?

Lopen posted...

(assuming they even get full benefits from the time slow-- if they're firing from external pods this isn't a given).

They do, just to confirm.

Lopen posted...

I think the moment he does flip the switch to Quicksilver he can really make it count and wreck 2B really hard due to the surprise factor.

The Pod also has analysis abilities, from everything to magic to robotics. It should be able to warn 2B to keep on her toes or provide counters should the situation call for it.

She could also utilize the wire program to effectively grappling hook out of harm's way, since it's exceptionally quick.

Ehh, I don't know if that's the case. Like at best Quicksilver equalizes the matchup, IMO, but 2B actually has a failsafe in the Shield program against those kinds of tricks. It kinda reminds me a lot of Vergil's DMC3 shields, except they're on someone who can no-sell Quicksilver - so Dante is gonna find it hard to milk that surprise factor for much. I think I'm gonna give 2B the lean here. It's close, but the more I look at her the more her toolkit expands in silly ways, whereas Dante is nerfed to melee only and there's only so many meaningful options there (you have the gauntlets, you have rebellion, you have force edge, agni and rudra and I think that's it? I forget if DMC2 had any interesting melee weapons). That's comparable to the Virtuous weapons but without the durability tricks or range spam.
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Also keep in mind a full bar of quicksilver is around 15 seconds, which is over double 6, and I don't see 2B being able to dodge any attacks whatsoever while he has quicksilver and she doesn't especially if it starts in a surprise situation. So I mean even assuming he's aggressive with the quicksilver that could make a fairly decisive flip in how the fight goes just because of the longer duration, especially if he flips it towards the end of one of her uses.
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Lopen posted...

and I don't see 2B being able to dodge any attacks whatsoever while he has quicksilver

Why so? There's multiple methods of movement away from Dante here. One of them is utilizing the wire program to hook herself to something or someone at extreme speeds, another is utilizing the rocket program to use the pod as a literal rocket transport. She can also simply use the pod as harassment, explosives and mines often make walking and attacking a lot harder.

Given Dante has a very specific method of activating this ability as well, 2B might decide in that moment of activation to retreat and heal, along with abuse her long range advantage from a higher up place as well.

Yeah I dunno

Dante seems like he's going to win this one, to me. The 2B votes feel like wishful thinking more than anything. Like to me it feels you have to make Dante play like an idiot to lose this one. If he plays a smooth game, careful precision strikes, he's not flipping the time slow much-- the big thing is that 2B's self heal is entirely based on damage dealing whereas Dante just heals passively, and that I'm convinced that a Dante who isn't intentionally facetanking hits or tripping the time slow excessively isn't going to get hit all that much-- he may very well start the fight this way but... well... one of the people I trust to be informed and unbiased in this match in particular, KP, is skeptical of 2B's ability to burst Dante down, so I see this one going a good while and Dante eventually learning how to exploit 2B's gimmicks.

I think if 2B's trump cards were less dependent on the enemy's action or inability to avoid her stuff this one would be more debatable, but it's like... Dante is always healing, Dante can always flip slow time whenever he refills his gauge rather than needing to dodge an attack to do it, Dante just looks more impressive when the gimmicks aren't in play, etc etc.
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uh

Lopen

'careful precision strikes'

'Dante'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGv5w3kCVHc" data-time="&start=99

This guy????
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When his opponent establishes they should be respected, yeah. Watch his drawn out sword fights with Vergil. In a 1v1 environment where his opponent is capable he's not going to be treating them like random puppets from stage 1.
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Alany posted...

How would he counter constant bullet pressure, AoE slows and artillery grade pinpoint lasers from the pod, while 2B is up in front attacking then?

Dante is way faster. Dealing with bullets and lasers wouldn't be a big deal. If he wasn't already fast enough to deal with it, he could honestly tank bullets. He's taken far, far worse and walked away without a scratch. I also don't see any reason why he doesn't just take out the Pod first. Any slows can equalized by Quicksilver. 2B herself? Royal Guard and Trickster make him damn near untouchable. And if 2B does hit him? She doesn't have the kind of power to actually kill him. Dante pretty much shrugs off everything like it's nothing with his insane durability and regeneration. He's faster, stronger, and more durable. 2B is just another Tuesday for him.
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Like basically to exploit Dante's carefree attitude you have to

1. Carry yourself in a way that leaves Dante to believe you're not a particular threat
2. Be able to wreck Dante suddenly enough that he isn't able to "get serious"

A big problem with this write-up allowing his canon regen is 2 becomes a lot lot less viable for much of anyone, much less someone who you've got people who have played the game saying it's unlikely. 2B just seems a bit out of her depth here.
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Lopen posted...

When his opponent establishes they should be respected, yeah. Watch his drawn out sword fights with Vergil. In a 1v1 environment where his opponent is capable he's not going to be treating them like random puppets from stage 1.

Vergil isn't a good example though. Dante has personal beef there. Watch how he handles Nero.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_gSJe60g20" data-time="

Dante still has a personal stake here and he still fucks around way more than he did vs Vergil because there is no mega rivalry. Vergil is an unique exception, not the rule for how he fights. Dante is a cocky jackass and that's just how he does his thing, really.
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Nero at that point of the game is not a legitimate challenge for him. 2B would wreck that Nero.

Vergil's not the only one. Dante doesn't fool around with much of any of the big bads. Arkham and Mundus are not treated as jokes either. Even the Savior isn't, really. Nero is not a big bad. Nero's just a punk kid that needs to learn some respect.
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I guess the main thing is, why would Dante treat 2B seriously if he doesn't treat someone who has Yamato and is manifesting an image of Vergil's DT (or something close to it anyway) like a serious enemy? He knows that sword is the realest of deals after all - the back half of DMC4 centers around getting it so he can kick Savior's ass and bail Nero out. Do you feel like he can just sniff out her power level is much higher than Nero's, for lack of a better word? Cause I legit feel like 2B gets a heavy first strike off against him right now due to him screwing around.
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Popcorn_Fairy posted...

Dante is way faster

Most feats put dante at moving (or at least reacting) at bullet speed levels. The issue there is that lasers by definition don't move at the speed of bullets. They move at the speed of light. In this case these lasers are also artillery grade weaponry, as seen in the above videos, 2B's pods are capable of firing out a trio volley of these.

Popcorn_Fairy posted...

He's taken far, far worse and walked away without a scratch.

Dante pretty much shrugs off everything like it's nothing with his insane durability and regeneration.

Like what? As for durability, he's not actually had that many feats. The largest examples we see are with sword wounds, as for explosives and otherwise the best we have is him surviving an explosion made by a motorcycle, not exactly a strong competition. The next one?

https://streamable.com/fdnzu
Effectively god-mode Dante empowered by Sparda's sword and power getting knocked out of his devil trigger, impaled and rained on by meteors. Which clearly has an effect on him.

His regeneration has also 'run out' when fighting opponents on his level. To give an example, Vergil fought him to such a point where a character neither of them took seriously could punk them completely without issue, that being Jester.

Popcorn_Fairy posted...

I also don't see any reason why he doesn't just take out the Pod first.

Small object effectively immune to projectiles behind an angry woman with a sword. Unless you think she's such a trivial opponent that he can just ignore her completely without issue, then he's going to have to deal with her first.

Well he already met Nero earlier in the game when he was a punk kid, and to him the only thing that has changed is he has that sword now.

Realistically, the issue is that it's kind of a catch-22

If 2B is a threat to win this match, Dante will at some point take her seriously due to her actions in the match.
If 2B is not a threat to win this match, Dante wins regardless.

So really it's not something to be exploited in any situation. I feel like you need a teamfighting situation or a very specific opponent for that personality "flaw" to realistically matter. It's just a straw to grasp at otherwise.
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Lopen posted...

If 2B is a threat to win this match, Dante will at some point take her seriously due to her actions in the match.

And what actions would those be, then? Something like catching him in a slow, while on dodge-time herself and then pounding him with artillery grade lasers?

Or just being good at sword? Because one of these kills or seriously maims him, the other does not.

I don't think those lasers can hit him under any circumstance. The lasers are very scary looking. They don't profile as the type of attack he's going to facetank for fun. Even under time slow they're just not fast enough given the estimated time slow and speed of the base lasers. At best they're providing a distraction for him to need to avoid, which yeah, has some value, but yeah, just overall wear and tear in the match, not putting her away easily, Dante's not going to treat her as a total joke once she starts getting a fair share of hits in with her sword.
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Lopen posted...

speed of the base lasers

speed of lasers

Lopen, what is the speed of a laser? There's some clear charge time in that video but as you can see, the pod can fire at any point. In-game you can charge and hold the lasers to fire at any point.

Is Dante going to be dodging three of these lasers, while under attack from 2B, all at once, when lasers shoot at the speed of light after the charge up? Is there some miraculous feat I'm missing of Dante's here? What gives you the impression he can do this?

Alany posted...

when lasers shoot at the speed of light

Hint if you can see the laser moving from point to point it's not moving at light speed. It's not even moving at bullet speed. It's moving at the speed of a brisk Sunday drive or so.
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