Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ The Doomslayer vs The Demon Hunter

(+) Yeah! (+)

The Doomslayer has challenged Valla the Demon Hunter to a fight! Location of the fight: Groznyj Grad - A military fortress in Russia with various buildings, warehouses, and hangars. All vehicles and soldiers have been removed. Attackers will start at the entrance, with defenders starting inside the main building.. Which side will win?

Guidelines

- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of a pre-selected plan of battle.
- "Broken" refers to a lot of things, including insta-death, auto-effects, a variety of status effects (e.g., Imp, Silence, Stop, *not* Poison), and revival. Unless stated otherwise, nobody has them, though do use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting

- Bold your votes (using bold HTML tags).
- You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
- Leaders cannot vote for their own teams (and players from the same pool may not vote as well), but they are free to argue their case.
- If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
- This match will end in 24 hours.
- The following conventions are in use for match topics: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/570224-mercs/75290480/878106427

The Doomslayer is as he appears in Doom 2016, equipped with all single player weapons and equipment, fully upgraded alongside his maxed out Praetor Suit, as well as the In-Flight Mobility, Equipment Power and Rich Get Richer runes, fully mastered. He may perform Glory Kills on opponents, which will not make him invulnerable, but will award health and ammo.

~VS~

Valla the Demon Hunter is as she appears in Diablo 3: Reaper of Souls, wielding dual Lianna's Wings crossbows. She has the skills Evasive Fire, Elemental Arrow, Shadow Power, Vault, Vengeance and Multishot, as well as the passives Steady Aim, Single Out, Hot Pursuit and Perfectionist.

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A demon hunter meets the premier slayer of demons, in a bitter battle to the death...FIGHT!
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Quick bulletpoint rundown of each fighter, for those who haven't played their games:

Doomslayer:

-Not Doomguy. Doom 2016 was a reboot.
-Still super fast just like Doomguy was though. Example here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot657NZVfxE" data-time="&start=25
-Has an arsenal of guns like an assault rifle that spams homing missiles, a triple-barrelled chaingun and a gauss gun, as well as, of course, the BFG9000.
-Survived a temple complex being caved in on him without his suit's paint even getting scratched. Suit can also survive massive energy discharges - you power it up by unleashing a 12k megawatt discharge for instance.
-Killed a monster the size of a (very large) building with a magical sword and shield and no fancy hi-tech armor.
-All of hell craps itself in fear of him.

Valla:

-Killed the sum of all evils in a 1v1. Also killed the archangel of death.
-Very slippery and swift. Can leap long distances.
-Can absolutely spam bolts from her magical crossbows. We're talking like dozens of them in a single second.
-Has a sort of devil trigger called Vengeance, that turns her into a demon armed with two rocket launchers and four side guns, and makes her do increased damage. No healing or damage resistance off it though. Lasts 20 seconds and has a 90 second cooldown (both tick down at the same time, so 70 seconds of practical CD). You can see a demonstration of it and how many bolts she can shoot here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ902W4nWS8" data-time="
-Has a limited ability to heal from her attacks, for about 5 to 15 seconds. She can reuse it after some time has passed, though it drains her ability to be acrobatic and mobile.
-Is outside fate, the angels of the High Heavens owe her their lives.

If anyone has any questions, please ask - I'm playing Diablo 3 right now and Doom's my mainstay, so I know both of these characters pretty well.
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Doomslayer

Demon Hunter has no counterplay for the BFG9000 aside from a damage race but I think not Doomguy wins that.
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Doomslayer kind of seems like a lower-tech, higher-chaos Master Chief

Demon Hunter is great but goddamn I did not know how to argue her and she really doesn't sell herself well
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that being said I definitely do think Demon Hunter should be a 6/week
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Johnbobb posted...

Doomslayer kind of seems like a lower-tech, higher-chaos Master Chief

Demon Hunter is great but goddamn I did not know how to argue her and she really doesn't sell herself well

*higher tech chief

The Doom 2016 lore is generally very impressive. They have a supercomputer that runs hotter than the sun, for instance, as well as extremely efficient systems running on hell energy, and his chaingun's firing system puts the projectile gases that make it fire under enough pressure to snap anything weaker than an IRL superalloy. This said, the reason why the Slayer is so ludicrously tough is his hi-tech suit is also magically enchanted out the wazoo by a reformed demon, so you're not far off.

(Oh! Something I forgot. Doomguy has his own way to self-heal if needed, Siphon Grenades. They stun enemies caught in their radius and drain their vitality to fuel him, enhanced by the Equipment Power rune. May not be super useful vs Valla since she's so speedy, but it's an option if he can see an opening.)
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

They have a supercomputer that runs hotter than the sun

pfft my nightlight runs hotter than the sun
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NFUN posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

They have a supercomputer that runs hotter than the sun

pfft my nightlight runs hotter than the sun

that's a pretty comfy nightlight then
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not really
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Bump so more people can see the match
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Doomslayer stomps. Rip and Tear.
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1. initially I read "Doomguy 2016 was a robot" and was like that's p neat
2. where are the sentries ;_;
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What's Demon Hunter got for defensive? Because I see Doom Slayer pretty easily facetanking and getting a hit in, and from what I can gather, that shit's fatal. If it's just 'dodgy' I don't see a point where DS doesn't rip and tear.
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Gatarix posted...

1. initially I read "Doomguy 2016 was a robot" and was like that's p neat
2. where are the sentries ;_;

It hurt my soul to not include them but I was unsure if I should give her an Elective Mode loadout or not (since the M4 writeup didn't do it)

Lord knows my own DH killed Malthael in like 15 seconds mostly because of the Sentries, but Vengeance is, like, too important

Without Vengeance the DH is a 5/week to me. Not enough truly ludicrous firepower to be able to hang with Master Chief and Samus, but adding four cannons and two rocket launchers plus a 40% damage boost goes a really long way with that.

Kamekguy posted...

What's Demon Hunter got for defensive? Because I see Doom Slayer pretty easily facetanking and getting a hit in, and from what I can gather, that shit's fatal. If it's just 'dodgy' I don't see a point where DS doesn't rip and tear.

The main thing is Shadow Power. It grants her heavy lifesteal on hit (and applies to every single hit of her Vengeance sideguns and rockets), though it only lasts for 5 seconds per cast. It has no cooldown, but it drains her ability to use Vault (an ability that lets her flippydoo 35 yards at a time) by game mechanics and she has about two casts from full resources (three in practice because she regens the resource she uses to cast it over the duration of her casts). I'd say that besides being dodgy, Valla's main source of durability is draintanking. She doesn't have notable durability feats but she's probably a fair bit above the human baseline and draintanking amplifies that. Whether it's enough to beat the Slayer, that I don't know.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

I was unsure if I should give her an Elective Mode loadout or not (since the M4 writeup didn't do it)

Just personally, I turned on Elective Mode as soon as I learned it was a thing, and never looked back (enough that I forgot about it until your post)

I kind of like Lopen's idea that the ability slots are just gameplay mechanics and canon DH has them all. But if you are going with ability slots they should absolutely be elective.
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Gatarix posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

I was unsure if I should give her an Elective Mode loadout or not (since the M4 writeup didn't do it)

Just personally, I turned on Elective Mode as soon as I learned it was a thing, and never looked back (enough that I forgot about it until your post)

I kind of like Lopen's idea that the ability slots are just gameplay mechanics and canon DH has them all. But if you are going with ability slots they should absolutely be elective.

Yeah I agree

The one canon cutscene we have of Valla going to work even has her using multiple Primary moves. This one IIRC?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qis_X2jiXCU" data-time="

I'll probably give her elective options whenever I get around to remaking her build so she's more competitive. If Neku Sakuraba can get free-pick pin choice, so can Valla.

EDIT: the main reason I don't like giving Valla every single trick is because a lot are just chaff. Like realistically speaking, who's using bolas over Hungering Arrow or Evasive Fire? It's not gonna get argued. Might as well simplify the toolset for voters' sake while letting her keep around the stuff that really matters.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

EDIT: the main reason I don't like giving Valla every single trick is because a lot are just chaff. Like realistically speaking, who's using bolas over Hungering Arrow or Evasive Fire? It's not gonna get argued. Might as well simplify the toolset for voters' sake while letting her keep around the stuff that really matters.

It matters most defensively, because you could have Smokescreen + Shadow Power + Vault without sacrificing offensive options. Caltrops too if facing a melee enemy.

I don't think chaff is a huge issue. Like <random FF7 character> has a huge range of materia, and 90% of it will never get argued because it's redundant or strictly inferior to something else, but that's okay. It doesn't clutter up the writeup to say "all green materia" or "all Demon Hunter skills."
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Point (though I don't respect Smokescreen at all if it doesn't get gameplay mechanics explicitly or rune upgrades. It's literally just a smokebomb, any serious enemies can deal with that just fine). I'll think about it. I DO know that no matter what, DH shouldn't get more than six runes because those are big gamechangers, but I can't lie and say it wouldn't be nice to see Rain of Vengeance argued if it isn't a turbogimp like it is in D3. It's definitely something to consider.
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Doomslayer


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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Point (though I don't respect Smokescreen at all if it doesn't get gameplay mechanics explicitly or rune upgrades. It's literally just a smokebomb, any serious enemies can deal with that just fine).

Invisibility + breaking CC is decent. I don't think she's literally untargetable (that part is game mechanics) but I do think she's literally invisible for the duration.
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Aight, so after thinking about this for a while, here's my thoughts on this match:

-I fucked up by not giving Valla Elective Mode setups. I even played D3 to completion before I put this match up (from scratch) as a DH and I was too conservative and hesitant to refit her writeup to make use of my newfound knowledge of her. I think this match gets much more competitive if at minimum she has Sentries instead of elemental arrow to set up a nasty ambush with.
-I don't think the BFG is too great here. It has damage-on-approach which is nice, but it's not an instakill or anything. Valla is much too mobile to get tagged by it I think.
-What I really can't see her dealing with is the chaingun though. It shoots 15 millimeter tungsten rounds at an absolutely silly rate and I don't think she can draintank through such a concentrated barrage of fire. Since its trajectory can be rapidly adjusted, I think it suppresses her pretty hard, too - Valla is fast but not faster than bullets going at literally Mach 5 speeds (seriously I cannot sing the praises of the triple chaingun hard enough. In physics terms it's a good four or five times more destructive than our modern miniguns and that's before you take into account what material it's made of, and in gameplay it's just stupid good at controlling whole rooms of mobs. The only reason it isn't everybody's main weapon 100% of the time in Doom 2016 is that the Gauss Cannon is so overtuned it twoshots every single monster in Siege Mode).

Even taking into account I am ragingly biased in favor of all things DOOMy, I really do think The Doomslayer has this. His feats are just better, his durability is much, much better, he's not slow enough to be kited by Valla and his toolkit is very flexible and powerful. I honestly feel like he would stomp Chief into the dirt and beat Samus too (though it'd be probably the toughest gunner-on-gunner fight he can have within his upkeep bracket), so I just have to vote accordingly here and make a note that everyone should take anything I say that doesn't sound factual (like the 'bullets go at mach 5' thing above) with a grain of salt since I can't help but stan for him. Tough match for Valla, really.
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Doomguy
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