Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Sonic vs Lloyd Irving

(+) Yeah! (+)

Sonic the Hedgehog has challenged Lloyd Irving to a fight! Location of the fight: Warring City Lumina Cloth - The Root Town of Omega Server, Lumina Cloth is basically a giant, lofty bridge between the territories of Icolo and the Arena, which has a smaller pathway encompassing the structure. The Chaos Gate is gone, no one is around, and access to the @home and Arena are forbidden. Everything else is fair game. Attackers will start at the entryway, with defenders starting behind the arena. Which side will win?

Guidelines

- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of a pre-selected plan of battle.
- "Broken" refers to a lot of things, including insta-death, auto-effects, a variety of status effects (e.g., Imp, Silence, Stop, *not* Poison), and revival. Unless stated otherwise, nobody has them, though do use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting

- Bold your votes (using bold HTML tags).
- You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
- Leaders cannot vote for their own teams (and players from the same pool may not vote as well), but they are free to argue their case.
- If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
- This match will end in 24 hours.
- The following conventions are in use for match topics: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/570224-mercs/75290480/878106427

Sonic the Hedgehog is as he appears across the Sonic series, with full access to all his showings seen therein except for Super Sonic feats, as he cannot achieve that super mode or any other. He is equipped with the Custom Shoes from Sonic 2006 and the Red, Blue and Green gems from that game, as well as the Caliburn from Sonic and the Black Knight (with all corresponding skills and special moves, including Soul Surge), and one of each Wisp from both versions of Sonic Colors, with the exception of the Blue Cube Wisp and the White Wisp, which he may activate at any time.

~VS~

Lloyd Irving is as he appears in Tales of Symphonia. He is equipped with the Material Blade, has all of his EX Skills, and has access to all of his techniques, including Falcon Crest.

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Two swords equals double the attack power, but is that enough to defeat power combined with overwhelming speed? FIGHT!
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I have it on good authority that lloyd doesnt even need swords
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Sonic
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Oh I almost forgot

@Lopen
@Johnbobb

Tagging experts to sell the chars while we're at it
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sonic is like 1000 mph and also has a sword so

i can argue more when actually at a computer
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i mean even without any of this:

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Caliburn from Sonic and the Black Knight (with all corresponding skills and special moves, including Soul Surge), and one of each Wisp from both versions of Sonic Colors, with the exception of the Blue Cube Wisp and the White Wisp, which he may activate at any time.

it's still sonic but i have no idea what any of that does.
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Short of it: Sonic has a sword and a super attack with it he can build up while fighting, he can take a bunch of wacky short-duration forms, and he can create tornados, slow time for himself and speed himself up a lot. I'll leave the longform explanations to Johnbobb since he's the Sonic guru and compared to him I'm just a casual. The Slow effect is probably the most noticeably valuable one here, since it allows Sonic to make better use of the blade and his speed, but they're all quite nifty I think.
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Is it basically the speed force?
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lloyd solos
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lloyd

...so the guy who casually breaks the sound barrier and penetrates through solid rock or solid metal with ease now also has a time slow and a separate speed boost.

man, his respect was always unusually shit but okay.
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Sonic
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IfGodCouldDie posted...

Is it basically the speed force?

In terms of practical effects? Kinda. Lorewise? Hell no, it's not nearly as busted. This ain't 'lol he turns into super sonic' type stuff, even if it's quite useful.

Wanglicious posted...

...so the guy who casually breaks the sound barrier and penetrates through solid rock or solid metal with ease now also has a time slow and a separate speed boost.

man, his respect was always unusually shit but okay.

Yeah, this writeup is sort of an attempt at giving him a bit more of a toolkit. It wasn't made under delusions of making Sonic be worth what I think he should be (which is like, 5/week) but merely to keep him from being a terrible purchase even against Low Tier mercs.
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Is Tales of Symphonia a good game? I tried it once but couldnt make it furthan than half an hour in.
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Logience posted...

Is Tales of Symphonia a good game? I tried it once but couldnt make it furthan than half an hour in.

It's good but dated. If you can get past the clunk you'll be pleased with it. If you can't but want to try a better designed Tales game, I suggest either Tales of the Abyss or Tales of Berseria, depending on how far forward you wanna jump - one's the immediate successor to ToS and the other is the latest offering of the Tales franchise.
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alright so new Sonic stuff breakdown:

Caliburn: really good sword, inspired by Excalibur. Cuts through rock with ease, and notably doesn't slow down Sonic while in use. Cuts through heavily armored knights in a single swing.

Soul Surge: allows Sonic to instantly accelerate to his top speed OR like Kanz said, giving him brief time slows as he does sword homing attacks.

Here's the latter being used

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz8E2YOB2ok" data-time="
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Sonic the Hedgehog
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I wouldn't take Lloyd here without giving Sonic 8000 powerups to overcompensate for Mercs being Mercs
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Sonic 06 stuff:

Green Gem - Tornado attack around Sonic
Red Gem - Slows time around him. Ya know, because he wasn't fast enough already. It just hit me that this is what Kanz was referring to, not the brief time-slowing of the Soul Surge, but there's that too.
Blue Gem - just makes him even fucking faster geez
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DeathChicken posted...

I wouldn't take Lloyd here without giving Sonic 8000 powerups to overcompensate for Mercs being Mercs

Did you mean to say you would take Lloyd without the extra stuff Sonic gets, DC, or that you'd vote in favor of Sonic even if it was 'base Sonic' anyway?
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Wisps:

Cyan Laser - turns Sonic into a literal light-speed laser. It's short but it's lightspeed and he's basically invincible while using it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnLwRkTLEu0" data-time="

Green Hover - He turns into a hover craft. Allows him to fly for a limited time. Can't do a whole lot else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUb5cW7ypIw" data-time="

Orange Rocket - Turns into a rocketship and flies directly up. Not super fast but basically has the force of a bulldozer and also makes him temporarily invincible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tG6WTZLoLk" data-time="

Pink Spikes - Basically what regular Sonic does, but also he's covered in sharp spikes and can roll on walls and ceilings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAciMtrJmQ8" data-time="

Purple Frenzy - This one's hard to explain, just watch the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2B-ipEgTzE" data-time="

Red Burst - Turns him into a sort of fireball thing. He can fly through the air by setting off small explosions around him to launch him about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDLHfjhYQ3w" data-time="

Yellow Drill - Turns him into a drill, woah, crazy. Can basically tunnel through pretty much anything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QdJrxRiE8w" data-time="

Violet Void - Oh hey, Tails literally explains this one better than I could

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJQ8Inm1mtc" data-time="&start=68
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Two Swords>0 swords
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Sonic
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He has a sword y'know

If you think Lloyd wins whatever, but like, read the writeups so I don't have to discount votes because of blatant bias voting

or at least make it a little bit harder to tell you didn't anyway, c'mon son
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Eddv posted...

Two Swords>0 swords

oh come on
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I honestly don't see how there's any way Lloyd can win here. I mean I understand people have a deflated value of Sonic for whatever reason. But this is LLOYD.
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WOAH LOOK IT IS A SWORD WOW
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GANON1025 posted...

I honestly don't see how there's any way Lloyd can win here. I mean I understand people have a deflated value of Sonic for whatever reason. But this is LLOYD.

I can see ways Lloyd wins because he's beaten enemies outside his weight class before and the material blade gives him access to some weird fuckery

But I'd like to see some discussion on how he does it because that way we get a more entertaining match at the least
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Mercs' respect for the character that can create gale force winds by running is one of the most puzzling things about it
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Haven't gotten any idea on what Lloyd can do from this, does he have anything to counter Sonic's speed even a little?
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Sonic though I'd like to see actual arguments from the Lloyd voters other than Sonic disrespect
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Eddv posted...

Two Swords>1 swords

I mean its basic math.
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You heard it hear first Eddv would lose to two infants
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

DeathChicken posted...

I wouldn't take Lloyd here without giving Sonic 8000 powerups to overcompensate for Mercs being Mercs

Did you mean to say you would take Lloyd without the extra stuff Sonic gets, DC, or that you'd vote in favor of Sonic even if it was 'base Sonic' anyway?

The second. And I like Lloyd, but I think a fight with base Sonic goes "Sonic dashes, Lloyd gets smashed faster than he could react. gg"

Like, you can stop Sonic with melee, but I think it would take someone with at least BotW Link's bullet time reflexes
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I agree, with the caveat that I think Lloyd is actually tanky enough that he could feasibly work out a counterstrike, possibly. Like to me this fight isn't a 10-0 shutout in favor of Sonic, even with powerups - I can see ways Lloyd can win, particularly by hitting Sonic when he's committed to an attack and can't dodge. Of course, Caliburn goes a long, long way towards fixing that since suddenly Sonic has either reach advantage or parity with Lloyd.
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Lloyd Irving

Just a bad match-up for Sonic. On strength and durability Lloyd has a decisive edge, and while obviously Sonic is fast, the big thing is Lloyd's attack speed and reflexes are very high-- he's not going to keep up with Sonic on a pure speed basis, but landing some counter hits will be doable-- the speed shown in stuff from the Sword Rain line shows he's able to swing his sword pretty damn fast. This is further augmented by the Counter Compound EX-Skill which allows him to attack more quickly after blocking. Over limit, when he reaches it, allows him to completely no sell Sonic's attacks which will make counterhitting Sonic during one of his attacks very easily. Also it doesn't come up very often but I think Lloyd's Ultimate Attack is very well suited to thrashing Sonic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt-2ji5mnuc#t=1m06s

Instant AOE around him with knock-up into a combo for massive damage. Against a guy like Sonic who needs to get in and doesn't have a lot of burst damage potential, countering with this will come up at some point.

Not to mention Lloyd has some techs with wide sweeping arcs that are basically designed to tag guys that need to charge in at him. The tempest line in particular basically has Sonic's spin dash with swords.

Also he can use Guardian to block things that he can't see well-- combined with the increased counterhit speed getting an opening should be reasonable.
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I'm heavily inclined to favor Sonic here, but I don't know what Lloyd's capabilities are, so I'll hold off on voting.

Edit: Oh, ninja'd. I'm still not sure after that.

Actually that entire video is a good visual of Lloyd's techs. It's only like a minute so it's a good way to see if you're convinced. I'll relink without the time tag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt-2ji5mnuc" data-time="

The sword rain set of techs and the tempest set of techs I see as being pretty good counters/evidence for Lloyd's attack speed on being able to hit Sonic. Also Falcon Crest which I talked about earlier.
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On the one hand, Sonic just completely outclasses Lloyd. And that's before noting all the silly little game-specific things Sonic is assumed to have here.

On the other hand, Lloyd has two swords while Sonic only has one. By my math, that should mean Lloyd has twice as much power. This really is a tough one.
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To give Lloyd some credit, I do recall him slaying some giant-ass dragons and 1v1'ing Angel Kratos with the same toolset he's got here. I do earnestly thing that Lloyd's combo game and the natural strength advantage he gets with the Exphere puts him on a higher general strength level.

Does Lloyd have any significant reaction time feats? I know he is a master-level Red Light Green Light player, but my questions are mostly "can Lloyd finish Sonic in one combo" and "is it realistic for Lloyd to hit that combo"? I'm leaning toward a full Demon Fa--Double Demon Fan--SwordRai-TEMPES--SONIC THRRR--SUPER SONIC THRRRRUST, etc. combo being enough to finish Sonic, as his durability toward stuff like Mephiles' heart shot or getting two emeralds knocked out of him by Knuckles shows he's not all that great at taking force outside of the spindash form, but I feel if Lloyd doesn't have the capability to time it right, Sonic's gonna actually get serious if he gets legitimately injured, or if he's TOO too fast, won't need to.
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I don't really think Sword Rain is necessarily a good speed showing that's particularly impressive against Sonic. He's not actually swinging his sword, there, he's jabbing with it. That means he's gotta be more precise than he would with a normal swing. Sword Rain is basically him trying to fence against Sonic which just seems like a horrible idea and would leave him open.
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Sword rain is mostly just evidence that he can attack really fast. I don't see it being relevant in the match either. I think the Tempest and Tiger Blade lines (which are quick in their own right) are what's likely to be used for counter attacks.
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Also like, Lloyd has several EX-Skills which are exclusively designed to make countering easier. I mentioned the Counter thing, but he also has another which allows him to counter while being knocked into the air (R. Arts) and another which allows him to fully link techs off counters (C. Guard).

He also has a kinda superior air game as he has some other EX-Skills that allow guarding in the air (Aerial Guard) and doing most of his airborne techs while jumping (Sky Attack), along with the ability to chain off of those into a normal combo upon landing (Jump Combo).

But yeah outspeeding him or out maneuvering him is basically a trap by design unless you're fighting with ranged attacks. It's basically the message you're given from his techs and fighting style. Like yes I am high on Lloyd respect and probably middling (though not one of the Sonic disrespect guys) on Sonic respect, but this is just styles advantage to Lloyd I think.
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sanic i think
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lloyd irving
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Sonic
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Sonic is just so much faster that I don't think any of Lloyd's attacking or countering abilities are going to help him at all. Even if Lloyd can take hits from Sonic he has a sword too.
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Lloyd. Sonic's offensive power has never impressed me, sword or otherwise.
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What is Lloyd's durability like, anyways?

MetalmindStats posted...

What is Lloyd's durability like, anyways?

Gets shot in the back by a mega buster-like cannon at short range once and survives (and is capable of moving after on his own of course). Looks like this:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/aselia/images/0/07/Forcystus_Model.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20141022024248

I think that's his most notable durability feat? He also survives Kratos thrashing the party twice, but that's not really a cutscene showing so who knows how it played out.
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