Board 8 > The Show EP 7 - Bowser Shocks, Tifa Rolls on, + Your 2nd Chance at $250 w/ Nick

(+) Yeah! (+)

At home, with the exception of last week, when I was in a hotel room.
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thanks for the shoutout guys! if anyone wants to participate in the picsmith topic, please stop by:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77219774

seriously just post pictures you want made into match pics and i'll do what i can
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Hmmm...Yeah, it's getting late now, so I'll listen tomorrow.
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Great discussion so far this week, I love it!

To answer the question: I listen to podcasts while I work out, or when I'm driving. Otherwise if I have something to take care of at work where I can turn my brain off for a while, I'll listen to a podcast through one earbud while I knock it out.


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As for my guess at the NN rankings this year I'd say

Link
Mario
Samus & Snake
Cloud & Crono
[Zelda]
Sephiroth & Mega Man
Sonic
[Pikachu slightly behind]
[Bowser/Tifa just off the mark]

But with no sizable gaps between any of the tiers (except the Link one, of course) which should keep things interesting. And will hopefully enable a Salty Runback!


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I wouldn't put Bowser on that pedestal - the Kirby match is FRADULENT compared to his other results. Ganondorf has basically always been stronger than him (Vivi/Bowser would be a coinflip, I think). Luigi too. Power ranking of non-N9ers goes:

Zelda
Pikachu
Tifa/MMX/Ganondorf
Luigi
Vivi/Bowser
Yoshi/Auron

With relatively small margins, but yeah.
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Oh right, forgot Kirby. Don't know where to put him. Probably around Luigi's level if the Hierarchy isn't involved? Would Kirby beat Tifa?
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ZenOfThunder posted...

where do people listen to the Show? I only get to listen when I'm driving so I can't really comment as I listen live

I don't drive, but I listen to podcasts while walking. It takes me at least 30 minutes to walk anywhere from my house, so I can get a lot in in a day.
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I usually listen to them at home while grinding in a video game or something
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Just finished MMX3 and I still don't see anything about "pacifist ideology"...!
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Agree that Bowser/Kirby was not the surprise Ngamer said it was

Like it's a pretty close match and Bowser has great historic strength. I understand Kirby as a slight favourite but that's it
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Ngamer64 posted...

Samus & Snake
Cloud & Crono

cloud will smash any of these

ZenOfThunder posted...

where do people listen to the Show? I only get to listen when I'm driving so I can't really comment as I listen live

I'm driving now >_>
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Just finished MMX3 and I still don't see anything about "pacifist ideology"...!

I think the objectionable stuff is mainly in the later games.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Just finished MMX3 and I still don't see anything about "pacifist ideology"...!

Yeah, it's more in the PS games where they actually attempt to have a real story.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Yeah, it's more in the PS games where they actually attempt to have a real story.

Considering I've never played any of those, that answers a lot. Looks like I was premature in my judgment... but come on, we all know X-X3 is where he gets most of his popularity.
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Oh yeah, no doubt. I don't think the PS MMX games (aside from maybe MMX4) sold as well and definitely weren't well received.
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Mega Man X4 has about as many gamefaqs owners/ratings as X2 and X3 and it's average score is on par or better. I think most would agree it's at least better than X3.

Things do get sketchier after that, though. I still haven't quite gotten around to X5, which is supposedly at least decent.
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Yeah, I think I agree that you need to have nostalgia AND relevance, which is what most of the powerhouse Nintendo characters have. Fox was a great example since he hasn't had a game of his own that people have cared about in 21 years. Nintendo was at its weakest since the early years in the previous two contests because the Wii fell off and the site never cared about the Wii U, so they weren't very relevant to the voter base at the time.

Hey now, don't sell Twilight Princess short as far as big Zelda releases go. The fanbase might be a little divided on the game, but that was one of the most hyped releases of all time.

Final Fantasy has done better with the anonymous voters all throughout the contest, pretty much. I believed Vivi had a real shot at beating Ganondorf, and he at least validated my faith in him, even if he didn't win. While beating Mario might have been a bit flukish for various reasons, he still had to be pretty darn strong to be able to pull it off in the first place.

Augh, I still have no idea why I didn't have Pikachu winning the division. One of my bigger regrets in my bracket this year. That being said, I don't think those wins against Yoshi and Zero were Noble Nine beating performances. Really strong near elite performances, but I'm not too worried about him doing a lot of damage in the Legends bracket (famous last words).

I honestly thought Alucard was going to win by more...! It looked like a good prediction early on, but he tanked a lot of percentage after a hot start. And yeah, being the only person to predict a division winner correctly is a huge accomplishment. I'm trying to remember any other division winners who had such a low number of people picking them to win on B8 (outside of multi-ways anyway). Maybe Vincent in 2005. Also, I've started watching the Castlevania Netflix series and playing SOTN for the first time because of Alucard's run. It's one of the best parts of the contest.

Augh, Kirby. That loss hurts. I really thought he was going to pull that off. As I said before, I do wonder if Bowser benefited from the Pac-Man Apathy Factor since you had to vote in every match, and people who wouldn't normally vote in Bowser/Kirby (since SFF matches tend to have lower vote totals due to the lessened diversity) just defaulted to Bowser. Who knows. I guess one other thing we can say is that, for all of Kirby's impressive performances, they were against characters whose exact strengths weren't totally quantifiable. Ness 60/40ing Ike still makes no sense, but I suppose you could call for a Kirby overperformance on Phoenix. Smash Bros. has always been a subset of the Kirby series because of SAKURAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII. Subspace Emissary might as well have been a Kirby game. I do believe a big reason Kirby is this strong is largely because of Smash because it's not like his games are that popular.

That Kirby/Bowser 2005 match pic was made by CJayC, yeah. I do like the theory that "American Kirby is hardcore" being applied to his match pic would have helped him. I hadn't really considered that before.

Augh, we're back to the top 5 FF characters all being from FFVII. Alas, poor Squall.

Heck yeah, Final Fantasy X great game. I do think Geralt may have overperformed a bit for various reasons, but he's still pretty legit. Allen definitely did an excellent job with Division 6 in general, with the upper half and then setting up Vincent/Magus/Auron in the lower half, which was interesting to see.

I had Luigi winning Division 7, but I always thought Tifa had a great shot against him. I almost picked her, but I let my inner fanboy get the better of me, although I was a big believer in both of them being really strong. Tifa validates my "First Love Factor" theory...! Also, it's "two BIG reasons why...!"
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AxemRedRanger posted...

Mega Man X4 has about as many gamefaqs owners/ratings as X2 and X3 and it's average score is on par or better. I think most would agree it's at least better than X3.

Things do get sketchier after that, though. I still haven't quite gotten around to X5, which is supposedly at least decent.

Yeah, X4 is probably more well liked than X3 within the fanbase itself. I don't think any of the others come that close. MMX5 has its moments, but they started messing with the formula too much at that point, in my opinion.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Augh, I still have no idea why I didn't have Pikachu winning the division. One of my bigger regrets in my bracket this year.

Yeah, that was my biggest regret by far. I missed four division winners - would never pick against MMX, never conceive of picking Alucard, and was content with my Kirby upset, but Pikachu was the one I should have been smarter with. I tried to rationalize his strength away while crediting Yoshi strength he really hasn't shown in a while. I think Yoshi's a clear step below Bowser/Luigi at this point.
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Yeah, that's the thing for me. I had Pikachu beating Yoshi because I've been a big Yoshi skeptic for a while, but for some reason, I thought Zero still had strength he hasn't shown in like 15 years.
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yeah I took Pika initially and then was all too happy to be talked into zero because I remember him being strong and my contest brain still goes to like, 2005

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/1344-east-division-round-2-zero-vs-sonic-the-hedgehog

It's still real to me, dammit
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LeonhartFour posted...

Yeah, I think I agree that you need to have nostalgia AND relevance, which is what most of the powerhouse Nintendo characters have. Fox was a great example since he hasn't had a game of his own that people have cared about in 21 years. Nintendo was at its weakest since the early years in the previous two contests because the Wii fell off and the site never cared about the Wii U, so they weren't very relevant to the voter base at the time.

I would (mostly) tend to agree, but there's a certain point at which nostalgia overrides a sheer lack of relevance, which I would say Ness has hit based on his indirect results, just as CT and FF6 characters have. As for why Fox looked off and Ness didn't, I feel like people remember and care a lot more about EarthBound than Star Fox 64, which could explain why only the former was in BGE3.

Augh, we're back to the top 5 FF characters all being from FFVII. Alas, poor Squall.

Assuming this is in terms of contest strength, Vivi's definitely in the top 5. I would say the top 5 is Cloud > Sephiroth > Tifa > Vivi > probably Auron, but maybe Aerith or Terra.

let's go zolomy

what would nostalgia, already being historically the #2 character on the site, and a smash inclusion do btw

CaptainOfCrush posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/1344-east-division-round-2-zero-vs-sonic-the-hedgehog

It's still real to me, dammit

Pikachu might be able to get closer than that now...!
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Mega Man X5 is completely fine. I'd put it above X3 at the worst. X4 is actually the best X game. X6 and beyond is when it starts getting pretty bleh.

I'm sure later X games actually have a decent following among your core Mega Man voters though. Like MMX can probably blow fodder out almost as well as Mega Man but against stronger competition he's probably folding much harder because the people who will vote him against stronger competition are big fans and have played the later MMX games and know Mega Man X the character sucks.
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Even if you don't take MMX's characterization into account when voting (which I'm sure like 90% of voters don't), it makes sense for him to be weaker simply because he's not the original. Mega Man encompasses a huge name brand with like ten different main characters under its umbrella. MMX is just one of those. He's probably the most popular one, but still.
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If MMX (specifically X) would have gotten into Smash instead of Classic, would most people still take Classic to be stronger directly or indirectly?
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Speaking of different versions of characters, how strong do we think Paper Mario would be? Obviously at least somewhat weaker than Mario (even though hes way better), but how much weaker? (Also hes canonically a different character as of Paper Jam!)
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KamikazePotato posted...

(which I'm sure like 90% of voters don't)

To be clear I agree with this

I'm just saying that 10% is very important when considering his ability to not fold against tougher competition because that 10% consists of the strongest contingent of Mega Man fans. (Because if you really like Mega Man it stands to reason you've played a lot of his games)
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I wouldn't. I think X would have gotten a slight boost (he doesn't lose to Tifa anymore), but MM Classic would already 55-45 Tifa. MM Classic is really strong.

I think the Smash factor is consistently overrated for characters who already have normalized strength, though. Smash is much more important for lower-tier characters who have big room to improve if they were introduced to a wider audience. The only one it ever helped was Snake, and those were very specific circumstances that are unreproducable. It hasn't changed Sonic's strength, it did nothing for Ryu, I doubt it has changed Mega Man in the slightest. It has maybe helped Cloud slightly, simply because he's so un-Nintendo, but that announcement was years ago and everyone on GameFAQs already knows who freaking Cloud is.
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I hear people who play Smash 4 love playing as Cloud because he's really damn good there.

It could help.

LordoftheMorons posted...

Speaking of different versions of characters, how strong do we think Paper Mario would be? Obviously at least somewhat weaker than Mario (even though hes way better), but how much weaker? (Also hes canonically a different character as of Paper Jam!)

I think he'd be a solid high midcarder. Both Paper Mario and TTYD have shown themselves to be pretty strong games in contests.

MetalmindStats posted...

As for why Fox looked off and Ness didn't

I mean I'd say Ness looked off too since he was a heavy favorite to beat 2B and it's not like he blew out Shadow, considered to be one of the biggest dogs among non-fodder characters
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Lopen posted...

Mega Man X5 is completely fine. I'd put it above X3 at the worst. X4 is actually the best X game. X6 and beyond is when it starts getting pretty bleh.

Agree with most of this. X4 is definitely the best in the series and X5 is fine, but I would still rank X3>X5.

X6 is easily the worst of the first 6, but I still thought it was a decent game and the series didn't actually go fully to shit until X7.
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X1 > X2 > X4 > X3 > X5

Need to go back and beat the others (and MM Zero)
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Yeah I think X6 is playable for sure. I could accept "decent" but it's not a game I'd ever play again in any case.

X5 on the other hand I've played a few times and have enjoyed it. I think X5 is the most underrated game of the series for sure. I'd guess a lot of people didn't play any PSX games but X4 at first since it was really the only hyped title on the PSX of the lot, then went back to try others and sorta lump X5 with the majority of the later games which are mediocre at best. If X6 was actually a legit good game I bet X5 would get more of a pass from people.
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Mega Man Zero 2 is one of my favorite action/platformer games I've ever played. Definitely an underrated series.
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Mega Man 4 I would say kinda benefits from the kinda thing I was talking about. Like 2 3 and 5 are awesome. 4 is kinda whatever but is generally much more highly regarded than like 6 or 7 and I don't agree with that. Flip 4 and 5 and I bet people are a lot more lukewarm on Mega Man 4 in general. Also 5 is probably closer to the "best game" discussion with that switch too cause it's in closer proximity to the other great ones.

Yeah I know we weren't really talking about this whatsoever but it just got me thinking, man.
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Sephiroth was the star of round 4 for me. Pushing 60%+ on Ryu is a very impressive performance based on what we've seen from him in the past. I didn't originally think he had a shot against Mario, but I'm starting to BELIEVE. He's Mario's Kryptonite, after all...! I do tend to agree with yo that I don't think this is a super boosted Ryu or anything, too.

Tifa only shared a match day with Sephiroth in round 4, Nick...! They're in separate divisions!

Stars of the Contest: Alucard, Tifa, Phoenix Wright, Donkey Kong, 2B
Turds of the Contest: Noctis, Big Boss, Riku, Commander Shepard, Draven

The break was nice, but at the same time, I feel like it sapped a lot of energy out of the contest. It was nice not to have to worry about it over Thanksgiving, but it was definitely "out of sight, out of mind" for me. I think it might hurt some of the non-Noble Niners because if they've been building up some sort of bandwagon, that momentum might be gone.

There is a part of me that's been a Mario skeptic for a long time because I think he's secretly not had great performances in years, but he hasn't faced anybody who could really expose him and he gets to hide behind Link SFFing him all the time. I do think Vivi exposed him a bit in 2013. I don't think that was all LFF and rallies. That being said, Odyssey and Smash probably go a long way to rejuvenating him, and Mario characters in general have looked pretty solid this year.

Calamari Damacy is the Katamari/Splatoon crossover pjbasis's uncle at Nintendo told me about recently.

I would give anything for Tifa to put a scare into Samus again. That 2006 match is super underrated, in my opinion. Zero Suit Samus probably doesn't hurt Samus that much anymore just because everyone knows the look now, although you might want to keep an eye out for some Hot Girl rSFF. Could be a Kirby/Bowser situation...!

I'm still kind of high on Snake this year. He has a very good reason to hold up that Big Boss doesn't. I'd say it helps that he's completely separated from the mess that was MGSV, but it didn't help Shepard much either! Snake does have a big nostalgia factor with MGS1 that Shepard didn't have though. We talked about the combo of nostalgia and relevance, and Snake has that again. EVERYONE IS HERE is a real thing that helps him, I think. He was probably the least expected character to get into Ultimate, and Nintendo absolutely played that up to hype his return.

I'm pretty interested to see Crono/Bowser just to see how good Crono looks. I honestly don't believe he'll lose here, but I think he's the biggest potential wild card of the Noble Nine.

I think Yoshi is a clear step below the other near elite Nintendo characters. I think Mega Man should beat Pikachu pretty cleanly. I know Mega Man only got 56% on Zero in 2004 (speaking of good CJayC match pics, that's a really good one), but I don't think Zero's on that strength level anymore. I guess I'm the one person who's down on Pikachu!

Hey now, Mega Man beat Charizard, Mewtwo, AND Pikachu!

Yo makes a good point about rematches for characters after they've been blown out. That could definitely be a factor. You could maybe see it for every character who faces Link since he could make every match ugly, especially since he SFFs half the field. I am kind of surprised that no one is really giving Ganondorf a chance against Pikachu though(which is fine by me because Ganondorf still suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks; you've actually found an opponent who will get me to vote for Pokemon).
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X > X4 > X2 > X3 > X5 > X6 > X8 > X7

2 > 3 > 9 > 10 > 4 > 5 > 6 > 1 > 8 > 7
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I'd give Ganondorf a healthy shot against Pikachu if it were, say, the Division 1 finals (probably would have called him the favorite pre-contest), but after Link is done putting up like 85% on him, I can't imagine the voters caring more about the guy. He'll be discarded meat. Alucard would have been lucky to draw Ganondorf in Round 1 of Losers - that could have kept his miracle run going!
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KamikazePotato posted...

Even if you don't take MMX's characterization into account when voting (which I'm sure like 90% of voters don't), it makes sense for him to be weaker simply because he's not the original. Mega Man encompasses a huge name brand with like ten different main characters under its umbrella. MMX is just one of those. He's probably the most popular one, but still.

This makes me wonder how strong something like Mega Man.EXE would be in the battles.
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I'd be happy if Mega Man.EXE was a midcarder. He might be worse. I don't think MMBN is a very GameFAQs-friendly series.

Mega Man ranking probably goes something like:

Mega Man
Mega Man X
(gap)
Mega Man Volnutt
Mega Man.EXE
Mega Man Star Force
Bad Box Art Mega Man
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I don't know that bad box art Mega Man would be the worst just because it's a meme at this point like CD-I Link and he's honestly more recognizable than a couple of the lesser Mega Man characters.
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Bad Box Art Mega Man is already not a separate entity from Mega Man classic in GameFAQs contests:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/board8/images/4/49/5265.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170323080158
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I'd take Bad Box Art Mega Man to be the third strongest, though agree with a significant gap between X and the rest with BBAMM being on the unflattering side of the gap.
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Lopen posted...

Yeah I think X6 is playable for sure. I could accept "decent" but it's not a game I'd ever play again in any case.

Ya thats reasonable. I just meant I was actually able to get through X6 and felt like it was a positive experience whereas X7 and X8 were so bad I almost couldn't finish them.

X5 on the other hand I've played a few times and have enjoyed it. I think X5 is the most underrated game of the series for sure. I'd guess a lot of people didn't play any PSX games but X4 at first since it was really the only hyped title on the PSX of the lot, then went back to try others and sorta lump X5 with the majority of the later games which are mediocre at best. If X6 was actually a legit good game I bet X5 would get more of a pass from people.

That probably does have a lot to do with it. From X4 to X7 each game was drastically worse than its predecessor and so most people just tend to say "X4 was good and then things went south", which IS probably true, but X5 is closer in quality to X4 than it is to X6. I do think if there was an actual good X game after X5, X5 would be seen in a better light.

I also think the entire series would have just been served better by X6-X8 just not existing. Even though X6 itself I think is a decent game, it undid a lot of the closure plot that X5 provided seemingly just to re-open the series again just to give us the shit that was X7 & X8. X5 would have been a nice ending to the X series and then just had a transitional title under a different name to bridge to the MMZ series.

Lopen posted...

Mega Man 4 I would say kinda benefits from the kinda thing I was talking about. Like 2 3 and 5 are awesome. 4 is kinda whatever but is generally much more highly regarded than like 6 or 7 and I don't agree with that. Flip 4 and 5 and I bet people are a lot more lukewarm on Mega Man 4 in general. Also 5 is probably closer to the "best game" discussion with that switch too cause it's in closer proximity to the other great ones.

Yeah I know we weren't really talking about this whatsoever but it just got me thinking, man.

I definitely think this anchoring bias exists in regards to chronology. I also agree that 6/7 are both better than 4 and I am one of the vast minority that thinks 5 is the best game of the original series. I think 5 would be looked at more favorable in debates vs 2/3 if it didn't come after 4. I think the fact that I started the series on 6 and then went back and played them in the order of 6=>3=>5=>4=>2=>7 probably shapes my opinion on that a lot.
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