Current Events > Rabbi: Never again means nothing if Holocaust analogies are always off limits

(+) Yeah! (+)

The first use of the word concentration camp dates back to the British Boer war in the late 19th century before even WW1 happened. They were arguably used before then under different names and slightly different objectives but generally speaking a concentration camp is any constructed region designed to relocate and concentrate a population of "undesirables" under horrible conditions without due process. The trail of years would have predated the Boer war and the reservations at the time fit the definition.

At the end of the day if you're concentrating people you don't like into a camp without due process you have a Concentration Camp.
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Theres nothing anti-Semitic about calling a concentration camp...a concentration camp.

Youre getting upset over nothing. Doesnt surprise me though, considering the 9 karma and all.
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TreyFlowers posted...

ledbowman posted...

It's not illegal to seek asylum.

You're not seeking asylum if you ignore procedures set in place for those actually seeking asylum; and instead crossing at a non-port of entry, disappearing into the country, and then, when finally caught for illegal entry, start claiming asylum.

HiddenRoar posted...

TreyFlowers posted...

ledbowman posted...

It's not illegal to seek asylum.

You're not seeking asylum if you ignore procedures set in place for those actually seeking asylum; and instead crossing at a non-port of entry, disappearing into the country, and then, when finally caught for illegal entry, start claiming asylum.

You realize that is not a description of anyone at the ICE Detention Centers, right?
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Grischnak posted...

There's nothing wrong with Holocaust or Nazi analogies if they fit. The problem is casually using analogies like that to describe things not even remotely comparable. If you wanted to use a WW2 analogy internment camps would be a far better analogy but even that isn't perfect since the people forced into WW2 internment camps weren't committing crimes. As opposed to illegal immigrants, who are literally criminals.

This. People have compared eating meat to the Holocaust.

Keep in mind that the only reason we're having this discussion is because people who have committed a crime are being held in temporary holding facilities while waiting to see a judge. That fact is being treated like Auschwitz by people on the left.

That thought is absolutely asinine.
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sktgamer_13dude posted...

Theres nothing anti-Semitic about calling a concentration camp...a concentration camp.

Youre getting upset over nothing. Doesnt surprise me though, considering the 9 karma and all.

You might have a legitimate point if you were calling them concentration camps when they were opened five years ago.

Leftists only have a problem with them NOW because it's politically convenient to do so.
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darkjedilink posted...

sktgamer_13dude posted...

Theres nothing anti-Semitic about calling a concentration camp...a concentration camp.

Youre getting upset over nothing. Doesnt surprise me though, considering the 9 karma and all.

You might have a legitimate point if you were calling them concentration camps when they were opened five years ago.

Leftists only have a problem with them NOW because it's politically convenient to do so.

good lord what a dumb thing to say
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hockeybub89 posted...

You are aware that comparing X to Y is not saying X is equal to Y, correct? Are you suggesting that comparisons should only be made and are only valid when the two things are identical? These literally are concentration camps. I'm sorry that upsets your delicate sensibilities and that you erroneously believe a certain inhumane threshold has to be cleared to use the term.

Funny.
When people used the poisoned bowl of M&M/Skittles analogy to show risk of probability, the liberals response is always "Skittles aren't people!" bit, completely ignoring what you just stated; that "comparing X to Y is not saying X is equal to Y, correct? Are you suggesting that comparisons should only be made and are only valid when the two things are identical?".

Usual suspects ITT.
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HiddenRoar posted...

TreyFlowers posted...

ledbowman posted...

It's not illegal to seek asylum.

You're not seeking asylum if you ignore procedures set in place for those actually seeking asylum; and instead crossing at a non-port of entry, disappearing into the country, and then, when finally caught for illegal entry, start claiming asylum.

8 U.S. Code 1158. Asylum

(a) Authority to apply for asylum
(1) In general
Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such aliens status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 1225(b) of this title.

darkjedilink posted...

Grischnak posted...

There's nothing wrong with Holocaust or Nazi analogies if they fit. The problem is casually using analogies like that to describe things not even remotely comparable. If you wanted to use a WW2 analogy internment camps would be a far better analogy but even that isn't perfect since the people forced into WW2 internment camps weren't committing crimes. As opposed to illegal immigrants, who are literally criminals.

This. People have compared eating meat to the Holocaust.

Keep in mind that the only reason we're having this discussion is because people who have committed a crime are being held in temporary holding facilities while waiting to see a judge. That fact is being treated like Auschwitz by people on the left.

That thought is absolutely asinine.

1) lol what at your first line
2) seeking asylum isnt illegal
3) no one is comparing it to Auschwitz. You are, but not the left. (edit: correction. Smart people arent comparing it to Auschwitz after ledbowmans post)

A concentration camp is a concentration camp. Just because you have a fragile mind and only correlate the words concentration camp to the Nazi Germany version of them doesnt make them not concentration camps.

They. Are. Concentration. Camps.
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There's a guy on MSNBC right now saying he's offended because "concentration camp" conjures Nazi camps.
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We should really stop arguing semantics and start talking about whether or not we're okay with what they're doing.

Dragonblade01 posted...

We should really stop arguing semantics and start talking about whether or not we're okay with what they're doing.

Republicans are okay with what they're doing. That's why they can only argue semantics.
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Phantom_Nook posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

We should really stop arguing semantics and start talking about whether or not we're okay with what they're doing.

Republicans are okay with what they're doing. That's why they can only argue semantics.

As opposed to the Dem way of "Lets get those good boy points and cheap labor and let anyone in and get tons more people suffering a dangerous trek through Mexico. Who gives a shit if their lives suck once they get in? We dont have to pay them shit and theyre so desperate and uprooted they cant do anything about it!"
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Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

Phantom_Nook posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

We should really stop arguing semantics and start talking about whether or not we're okay with what they're doing.

Republicans are okay with what they're doing. That's why they can only argue semantics.

As opposed to the Dem way of "Lets get those good boy points and cheap labor and let anyone in and get tons more people suffering a dangerous trek through Mexico. Who gives a shit if their lives suck once they get in? We dont have to pay them shit and theyre so desperate and uprooted they cant do anything about it!"

There would maybe be a vague resembling of a point here if the Democrats weren't also pushing for loosening up immigration requirements and increased social programs to benefit poor people.
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sktgamer_13dude posted...

Seeking asylum isnt illegal.

crossing the border illegally is, which is what many people do in order to seek asylum. You commit an illegal act in order to do the legal one.

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

Phantom_Nook posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

We should really stop arguing semantics and start talking about whether or not we're okay with what they're doing.

Republicans are okay with what they're doing. That's why they can only argue semantics.

As opposed to the Dem way of "Lets get those good boy points and cheap labor and let anyone in and get tons more people suffering a dangerous trek through Mexico. Who gives a shit if their lives suck once they get in? We dont have to pay them shit and theyre so desperate and uprooted they cant do anything about it!"

if their lives suck, they can go back, no? the reason they come (and stay) is because it is better.

Damn_Underscore posted...

So the rabbi understands that calling them "concentration camps" is comparing them to the Holocaust based on the connotation of the term.

That's the thing, the conditions in the border camps may be unethical and inhumane, but they aren't close to genocide or a gateway to genocide in any way.

The Nazi concentration camps didnt start off that badly either. Not all of them were even death camps, most of them were labor camps and people who were killed were moved to a few specific ones.
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also some people need to realize that there is more to language than the dictionary definition of a term. clearly the term concentration camp is invariably linked to Nazi Germany. Making an argument based on definitions is fine, but its completely disingenuous to pretend the language isn't loaded because of this connection.

Fam_Fam posted...

also some people need to realize that there is more to language than the dictionary definition of a term. clearly the term concentration camp is invariably linked to Nazi Germany. Making an argument based on definitions is fine, but its completely disingenuous to pretend the language isn't loaded because of this connection.

but they literally are concentration camps
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Fam_Fam posted...

also some people need to realize that there is more to language than the dictionary definition of a term. clearly the term concentration camp is invariably linked to Nazi Germany. Making an argument based on definitions is fine, but its completely disingenuous to pretend the language isn't loaded because of this connection.

The only people being disingenuous are the ones ignoring the inhumane conditions to play semantics and say "but the Nazis were worse!!" just so the Trump administration doesn't look bad.

If people can't read the phrase concentration camp without thinking it's a Nazi only thing, that's on them. Unless you're forgetting the good ol US of A had concentration camps in WWII as well.
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USB-C posted...

Anyone that uses the term concentration camp to describe this needs to take a walk through the Holocaust museum in Washington DC. That would imply that they can go outside though.

FDR called our Japanese camps concentration camps.

I can't believe he was saying that he was slaughtering 6 million Jews and being as bad as Hitler.
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Fam_Fam posted...

also some people need to realize that there is more to language than the dictionary definition of a term. clearly the term concentration camp is invariably linked to Nazi Germany. Making an argument based on definitions is fine, but its completely disingenuous to pretend the language isn't loaded because of this connection.

It's not like Nazi concentration camps are some completely different animal, just the worst example of this shit. There is no good connotation of "Concentration camp". If an accurate label is making people uncomfortable, then that is the point. Again, there is no point in "Never again" if we aren't supposed to criticize the inhumane actions of governments until they are mid neo-Holpcaust. Zero tolerance for the inhumane.

I feel like if we used "nicer" language that people would still try to shrug off this shit. "This isn't as bad as our Japanese internment camps. These people aren't citizens. They're breaking the law. They shouldn't have come here." That's going on already anyway. Plenty of people here or elsewhere are essentially absolving our actions because we wouldn't be inhumane if these illegals didn't show up at the border.
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averagejoel posted...

Fam_Fam posted...

also some people need to realize that there is more to language than the dictionary definition of a term. clearly the term concentration camp is invariably linked to Nazi Germany. Making an argument based on definitions is fine, but its completely disingenuous to pretend the language isn't loaded because of this connection.

but they literally are concentration camps

yes, i understand that, and see the argument for saying that they are a type of concentration camp

i'm referring to when people are like hurr durr Nazi concentration camps aren't the only ones!!!

pretty much everyone knows that, but it's unreasonable to pretend that this is not the predominant thing people envision when the term is brought up, which is what causes the strong response. the whole "well you're wrong because the dictionary says a concentration camp is..." completely ignores the point that many are making. it's not always 100% about what the definition of a word is, but also the connotation of those words that matter when one is communicating.

Fam_Fam posted...

averagejoel posted...

Fam_Fam posted...

also some people need to realize that there is more to language than the dictionary definition of a term. clearly the term concentration camp is invariably linked to Nazi Germany. Making an argument based on definitions is fine, but its completely disingenuous to pretend the language isn't loaded because of this connection.

but they literally are concentration camps

yes, i understand that, and see the argument for saying that they are a type of concentration camp

i'm referring to when people are like hurr durr Nazi concentration camps aren't the only ones!!!

pretty much everyone knows that, but it's unreasonable to pretend that this is not the predominant thing people envision when the term is brought up, which is what causes the strong response. the whole "well you're wrong because the dictionary says a concentration camp is..." completely ignores the point that many are making. it's not always 100% about what the definition of a word is, but also the connotation of those words that matter when one is communicating.

So we should use the wrong words if the right words might evoke too strong of an example?
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hockeybub89 posted...

Fam_Fam posted...

also some people need to realize that there is more to language than the dictionary definition of a term. clearly the term concentration camp is invariably linked to Nazi Germany. Making an argument based on definitions is fine, but its completely disingenuous to pretend the language isn't loaded because of this connection.

It's not like Nazi concentration camps are some completely different animal, just the worst example of this shit. There is no good connotation of "Concentration camp". If an accurate label is making people uncomfortable, then that is the point. Again, there is no point in "Never again" if we aren't supposed to criticize the inhumane actions of governments until they are mid neo-Holpcaust. Zero tolerance for the inhumane.

I feel like if we used "nicer" language that people would still try to shrug off this shit. "This isn't as bad as our Japanese internment camps. These people aren't citizens. They're breaking the law. They shouldn't have come here."

i agree with you, but that doesn't make what's being said in the last paragraph wrong. all of those are reasonable things to say / are accurate in many cases. If they aren't, then that's what needs to be debated / proved, not arguing about the word "Concentration camp".

The focus should be on the actual problem rather than trying to prove whether or not the definition fits. That is entirely irrelevant. Whether or not x or y is worse is irrelevant. But people rather argue about those than present actual solutions.

What are the alternative solutions that are better? Consider everything that is flawed with that solution (there will be many reasonable flaws), and explain/prove why those shortcomings make it significantly better than the status quo. If you can convince people of that, then perhaps it will change. Simply saying x is bad doesn't make y better, and does nothing to get rid of x.

hockeybub89 posted...

Fam_Fam posted...

averagejoel posted...

Fam_Fam posted...

also some people need to realize that there is more to language than the dictionary definition of a term. clearly the term concentration camp is invariably linked to Nazi Germany. Making an argument based on definitions is fine, but its completely disingenuous to pretend the language isn't loaded because of this connection.

but they literally are concentration camps

yes, i understand that, and see the argument for saying that they are a type of concentration camp

i'm referring to when people are like hurr durr Nazi concentration camps aren't the only ones!!!

pretty much everyone knows that, but it's unreasonable to pretend that this is not the predominant thing people envision when the term is brought up, which is what causes the strong response. the whole "well you're wrong because the dictionary says a concentration camp is..." completely ignores the point that many are making. it's not always 100% about what the definition of a word is, but also the connotation of those words that matter when one is communicating.

So we should use the wrong words if the right words might evoke too strong of an example?

you should use words that communicate the meaning in a way that clearly communicates what you mean. The fact that many people think you are referring to something else means that either your wording is wrong or not precise enough. The term concentration camp in this case is very broad and can be interpreted to mean something that you are not saying. People who are arguing against you will always choose the examples that counter your point (i.e. they will pick concentration camps that ARE different from what is going on now). That's always what they will do, and your choice of words permits that argument. So the alternative is to define what you mean clearly so that one can't twist it to make you "wrong". I'm not saying its solid argumentation, but its what will happen 100% of the time if you leave room for it.

pegusus123456 posted...

If a tent city is not a literal concentration camp, then it's probably better than a literal concentration camp.

I just don't believe that America, supposedly the richest, greatest country on the planet, can only funnel people into concentration camps.

I can believe it when our politicians are fighting over resource funding to improve the conditions for the migrants.

Fam_Fam posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

Fam_Fam posted...

averagejoel posted...

Fam_Fam posted...

also some people need to realize that there is more to language than the dictionary definition of a term. clearly the term concentration camp is invariably linked to Nazi Germany. Making an argument based on definitions is fine, but its completely disingenuous to pretend the language isn't loaded because of this connection.

but they literally are concentration camps

yes, i understand that, and see the argument for saying that they are a type of concentration camp

i'm referring to when people are like hurr durr Nazi concentration camps aren't the only ones!!!

pretty much everyone knows that, but it's unreasonable to pretend that this is not the predominant thing people envision when the term is brought up, which is what causes the strong response. the whole "well you're wrong because the dictionary says a concentration camp is..." completely ignores the point that many are making. it's not always 100% about what the definition of a word is, but also the connotation of those words that matter when one is communicating.

So we should use the wrong words if the right words might evoke too strong of an example?

you should use words that communicate the meaning in a way that clearly communicates what you mean. The fact that many people think you are referring to something else means that either your wording is wrong or not precise enough. The term concentration camp in this case is very broad and can be interpreted to mean something that you are not saying. People who are arguing against you will always choose the examples that counter your point (i.e. they will pick concentration camps that ARE different from what is going on now). That's always what they will do, and your choice of words permits that argument. So the alternative is to define what you mean clearly so that one can't twist it to make you "wrong". I'm not saying its solid argumentation, but its what will happen 100% of the time if you leave room for it.

I think people are saying exactly what they mean though. Hell, these are some of the few concentration camps that have even popped up since the end of WWII. They are aware of the past. They know what historical examples might be thought of.

And I'm pretty sure everyone being critical of our concentration camps thinks we need to do more than accurately call them those words. Honestly, I think you're overestimating the people that are taking umbrage with the choice of words. They aren't looking for convincing. They have a prepared response for anything. It's not like people weren't defending this shit before AOC made a comment. When all else fails, they just fall back into "Well they shouldn't have been criminals and they shouldn't have made their children accessories." A lot of people just kind of stop giving a fuck when they hear someone may have broken the law
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Fam_Fam posted...

also some people need to realize that there is more to language than the dictionary definition of a term. clearly the term concentration camp is invariably linked to Nazi Germany. Making an argument based on definitions is fine, but its completely disingenuous to pretend the language isn't loaded because of this connection.

Children are being kept without access to soap, toothbrushes, or mattresses. Trump administration lawyers are arguing that this is ok. There's nothing loaded about the analogy at all. It's accurate.
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Fam_Fam posted...

sktgamer_13dude posted...

Seeking asylum isnt illegal.

but crossing the border without appropriate documentation is, which is what many people do in order to seek asylum. You commit an illegal act in order to do the legal one.

8 U.S. Code 1158. Asylum

(a) Authority to apply for asylum
(1) In general
Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such aliens status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 1225(b) of this title.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Damn_Underscore posted...

So the rabbi understands that calling them "concentration camps" is comparing them to the Holocaust based on the connotation of the term.

That's the thing, the conditions in the border camps may be unethical and inhumane, but they aren't close to genocide or a gateway to genocide in any way.

Concentration Camps literally started as temporary holding facilities for deportation. It wasn't until later that the Nazis realized bullets were a lot cheaper than international travel.

Jews and other groups were sent to concentration camps by the Nazis because they were Jews or other groups (such as people of certain nationalities, political wrongthinkers, antisocial people, homosexuals). The people in the border camps are being sent there because they illegally crossed the border, and for no other reason.

That is the key difference between Nazi concentration camps and the border camps. So again, while there may be unethical and inhumane things happening at the border camps that inherently must be reformed, they are not genocide or a gateway to genocide, or even close to it. Which is why comparing the border camps to Nazi concentration camps is incorrect and even dishonest.
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Serious Cat posted...

Fam_Fam posted...

also some people need to realize that there is more to language than the dictionary definition of a term. clearly the term concentration camp is invariably linked to Nazi Germany. Making an argument based on definitions is fine, but its completely disingenuous to pretend the language isn't loaded because of this connection.

Children are being kept without access to soap, toothbrushes, or mattresses. Trump administration lawyers are arguing that this is ok. There's nothing loaded about the analogy at all. It's accurate.

it's not even an analogy. they are concentration camps
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USB-C posted...

sktgamer_13dude posted...

Theres nothing anti-Semitic about calling a concentration camp...a concentration camp.

Youre getting upset over nothing. Doesnt surprise me though, considering the 9 karma and all.

remind me to save this when someone uses a dictionary definition of something that is completely outdated because it turned into something offensive

Concentration camps are always offensive! The term is derogatory and describes something bad! Holy fuck! There haven't even been many concentration camps since WWII. Of course the Nazis will be a prime example.

Your definition argument makes no sense. Do you also believe we should stop calling terror attacks terror attacks because America has never suffered anything as bad as 9/11? Should nothing in the world be called a genocide until the death tolls get close to the Holocaust?

Do we need to create new words every time something defined by that word crosses a certain evilness threshold? "People might think of famous serial killers when they hear murder so maybe you should consider calling this a life removal instead."
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the obvious intent is to make people think of the death camps
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TreyFlowers posted...

ledbowman posted...

It's not illegal to seek asylum.

Maybe they should have had the good sense to be born in a country that isn't being torn apart by war or a third world country. Really, only got themselves to blame for choosing not to be born in a western country.
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USB-C posted...

Should we continue to use the original definition for cigarettes too? Should we use the original word for the color black? The original word for someone who is trans?

No, because they're fucking offensive terms.

the key difference here is that "concentration camp" is not a slur.

Meanwhile you"ll argue until the sun comes up over the okay symbol and Pepe being a white supremacist symbol

the key difference here is that concentration camps are actual physical places that exist, while Pepe and the okay symbol are, as you said, symbols
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Instead of worrying whether they're as bad as literal nazi death camps, maybe use a little bit of that energy to wonder why someone might call them concentration camps in the first place.

In any other circumstance, conservatives would label this urge to shy away from the truth in order to preserve someone's feelings political correctness.
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The problem with aoc is she's either stupid or really self absorbed.

Conservatives: Abortion has killed more than the Holocaust!
also Conservatives: Calling them concentration camps is trying to remind people of the Holocaust!
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CookieMarvin posted...

darkjedilink posted...

sktgamer_13dude posted...

Theres nothing anti-Semitic about calling a concentration camp...a concentration camp.

Youre getting upset over nothing. Doesnt surprise me though, considering the 9 karma and all.

You might have a legitimate point if you were calling them concentration camps when they were opened five years ago.

Leftists only have a problem with them NOW because it's politically convenient to do so.

good lord what a dumb thing to say

How is it dumb to point out that liberals had no comments for years when Obama was doing this?
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the only reason conservatives are mad that these are being called concentration camps is because of the subtextual implication that trump is being called hitler

they're not trying to stand up for jews and we should not treat them as though they are

darkjedilink posted...

How is it dumb to point out that liberals had no comments for years when Obama was doing this?

obama was releasing them to their families because a court ruled that this was the only other option
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darkjedilink posted...

CookieMarvin posted...

darkjedilink posted...

sktgamer_13dude posted...

Theres nothing anti-Semitic about calling a concentration camp...a concentration camp.

Youre getting upset over nothing. Doesnt surprise me though, considering the 9 karma and all.

You might have a legitimate point if you were calling them concentration camps when they were opened five years ago.

Leftists only have a problem with them NOW because it's politically convenient to do so.

good lord what a dumb thing to say

How is it dumb to point out that liberals had no comments for years when Obama was doing this?

because the systematic abuse of power didnt happen overnight. youre ignoring years of buildup to try and dunk on the libs
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