Poll of the Day > Why do people always fight about glitched speedruns?

(+) Yeah! (+)

It is like the two parties don't understand each other.

1.) No one cares about TA or glitches.
2.) They just want it separate from intended mechanic runs. That's it. They don't hate TA or glitches.

Why is this hard? You wouldn't glitch a marathon in real life and take a 10-mile shortcut that no one sees. Why are the fabricated realities of video games which are all collections of digital rulesets anyway somehow different?

What is the point of gaslighting someone trying to convince them that blue is green and green is blue?

There is a place for everyone.

(This is staged)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fsu4miYMWo" data-time="
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Its just two different speedrun groups. And they like the way they do speed runs better than the other...

Reminds me of subs vs dubs, tbh...
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Personally, I think a speed run of a game is to play it as the creators intended.
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hypnox posted...

Personally, I think a speed run of a game is to play it as the creators intended.

I actually agree, tbh... Never been a big fan of glitch speed runs... Then again, Im not a fan of speed runs, so...
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hypnox posted...

Personally, I think a speed run of a game is to play it as the creators intended.

GrimCyclone posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fsu4miYMWo" data-time="

Its fine. Dont worry about it...
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Yeah, i agree with you guys, but there's a horde of people that would argue so I'm just trying to be diplomatic. It won't ever matter anyway. No official contest run will ever allow such inventive glitching unless it is explicitly allowed. So their argument is null.

Still, i don't give a shit what they wanna think. I'm all for them having fun at their own shit. Just don't try and bring your Greyhound to a human 900m dash. Lol
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LinkPizza posted...

Its just two different speedrun groups. And they like the way they do speed runs better than the other...

Just different categories to keep different people interested. Boring glitches/strategies being discovered can turn of a lot of people who were speed-running before.
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GrimCyclone posted...

No official contest run will ever allow such inventive glitching unless it is explicitly allowed.

There really aren't official contest speed runs, and if there were going to be, odds are any major speed run-applicable glitches would be patched out in preparation for it. That's a fairly meaningless point to try making in more broadly discussing glitches in speed runs.

hypnox posted...

Personally, I think a speed run of a game is to play it as the creators intended.

There's a very easy argument to make that the vast majority of speed runs aren't playing as the creators intended, glitches or otherwise. Even a non-glitch run entails skipping absolutely everything that can be skipped, which is hardly consistent with the vision of the people that put it in there to be enjoyed. Now, there's also an argument to be made that the creators' intent is for players to have fun with the game, which means skipping everything is still consistent with that intent, but then that position means using glitches to skip even more stuff is also consistent and we're back to square one.

Really, the distinction exists because glitch hunting and execution is often a very different sort of mindset and play style from playing within the normal restraints of the game. Some people enjoy that different play style, and some don't, so you get different competition classes so there's something for both camps of players. That's all there really is to it. No need to start invoking any sort of ideals of purism or creators' intents or anything that would turn this into anything more than two people who like playing games two different ways.
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I cant believe gamers would get upset about a thing

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I don't like X speedrun
So I do Y speedrun
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If you're speedrunning then aren't you already not playing the game as the developers intended? Unless the game displays you final playtime at the end or has rewards for beating it faster, it could be said that you were never meant to rush through it.

I dunno guys. The "the way the developer intended" argument just seems like it extend to all sorts of things besides glitches, such as using invincibility frames to avoid taking damage from worse attacks, or a whole slew of other things. Might as well ban sequence breaking in general, the phrase itself implies that the devs had a specific sequence in mind and you've went against their intent by doing things in the wrong order. (And doing so knowingly)

Yeah from what I know glitches are the norm in speedruns

Like everyone always does the glitch in SOTN to keep your good gear at the beginning of the game

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LinkPizza posted...

hypnox posted...

Personally, I think a speed run of a game is to play it as the creators intended.

I actually agree, tbh... Never been a big fan of glitch speed runs... Then again, Im not a fan of speed runs, so...

Agreed. But as long as theyre in separate categories when it comes to records, Im fine with them. I care a lot less about a glitched speed run record though if Im being honest.
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My only annoyance is when "Glitch-less" runs very clearly include glitches and exploits, what's the point? Other than that I don't give a shit, seems like a stupid thing to care about.

I think the bigger debate isn't so much "glitches vs. glitchless" as it is "what's a glitch?" Actually defining what should and shouldn't be defined as a glitch is extremely difficult.

GrimCyclone posted...

You wouldn't glitch a marathon in real life and take a 10-mile shortcut that no one sees. Why are the fabricated realities of video games which are all collections of digital rulesets anyway somehow different?

There's a distinct problem with this analogy: glitches aren't just some oddity where the world suddenly stops following the laws of physics. They are a mistake IN the laws of physics themselves. If a glitch existed in reality, we wouldn't recognize it as a glitch: we would just see it as ordinary reality functioning as usual. An outside observer might say that everybody running a marathon is abusing the glitch where moving from Point A to Point B is faster when moving in a straight line.

Video games follow their own laws of physics, which is why glitches can be replicated. As far as the game's laws of physics are concerned, there is no such thing as a glitch: no matter how weird the game looks as an outside observer *or even the creator of the game world itself*, all the objects in the game world are acting as they were programmed to.
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The only problem I have is what qualifies as a "glitch". But there are usually so many categories to address those so it's really not a big deal.
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Actually, it's not difficult at all. The adults who don't even play games sit at a table and decide rules. Then they let the kids play the games. And when one does something they deem a glitch, *buzzer* you're out.

See, reality is > than mental gymnastics. They force you into shutting up and stop you from turning things into a philosophical debate. And after they're done, they pay themselves with the money you and your friends used to buy tickets to the event with.

Cold hard reality. Enforced by might and violence. Makes you mad, huh? You aren't gonna change it by thinking your way out of it.
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...right...
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......I think TC is starting to drift off topic (either that, or his mini-rant is the true topic)
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final_lap posted...

If you're speedrunning then aren't you already not playing the game as the developers intended? Unless the game displays you final playtime at the end or has rewards for beating it faster, it could be said that you were never meant to rush through it.

I dunno guys. The "the way the developer intended" argument just seems like it extend to all sorts of things besides glitches, such as using invincibility frames to avoid taking damage from worse attacks, or a whole slew of other things. Might as well ban sequence breaking in general, the phrase itself implies that the devs had a specific sequence in mind and you've went against their intent by doing things in the wrong order. (And doing so knowingly)

I think this starts going into what is a glitch. Like, I would say using invincibility frames is a glitch. Most give you that so you are constantly taking damage. One game even lets you level up your invincibility frames, so it last longer, which could help, as an example...

ChaoticKnuckles posted...

LinkPizza posted...

hypnox posted...

Personally, I think a speed run of a game is to play it as the creators intended.

I actually agree, tbh... Never been a big fan of glitch speed runs... Then again, Im not a fan of speed runs, so...

Agreed. But as long as theyre in separate categories when it comes to records, Im fine with them. I care a lot less about a glitched speed run record though if Im being honest.

Yeah. I think thats the important part. Making them separate categories...

Mead posted...

Yeah from what I know glitches are the norm in speedruns

Like everyone always does the glitch in SOTN to keep your good gear at the beginning of the game

Ive heard both. But Ive always heard them referred to as different things...
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GrimCyclone posted...

Actually, it's not difficult at all. The adults who don't even play games sit at a table and decide rules. Then they let the kids play the games. And when one does something they deem a glitch, *buzzer* you're out.

See, reality is > than mental gymnastics. They force you into shutting up and stop you from turning things into a philosophical debate. And after they're done, they pay themselves with the money you and your friends used to buy tickets to the event with.

Cold hard reality. Enforced by might and violence. Makes you mad, huh? You aren't gonna change it by thinking your way out of it.

You're really weird.
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adjl posted...

You're really weird.

Right?

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if you use glitches or tools in your speedrun, then you aren't speedrunning it.

period.
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Bulbasaur posted...

if you use glitches or tools in your speedrun, then you aren't speedrunning it.

period.

That is why pure speedruns, glitched speedruns and TAS are considered separate categories by everyone.

Speedruns represent what anyone could accomplish in a game with training and luck.
Glitched represents what one can accomplish while "breaking" a game to a certain extend.
TAS represents the theoretical zenith of speedrunning, not human skill.
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Bulbasaur posted...

if you use glitches or tools in your speedrun, then you aren't speedrunning it.

period.

where in the definition of speedrun does it say you cant use glitches
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TheSlinja posted...

Bulbasaur posted...

if you use glitches or tools in your speedrun, then you aren't speedrunning it.

period.

where in the definition of speedrun does it say you cant use glitches

Usually, its in the rules...
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LinkPizza posted...

TheSlinja posted...

Bulbasaur posted...

if you use glitches or tools in your speedrun, then you aren't speedrunning it.

period.

where in the definition of speedrun does it say you cant use glitches

Usually, its in the rules...

usually its split into different categories you mean
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TheSlinja posted...

LinkPizza posted...

TheSlinja posted...

Bulbasaur posted...

if you use glitches or tools in your speedrun, then you aren't speedrunning it.

period.

where in the definition of speedrun does it say you cant use glitches

Usually, its in the rules...

usually its split into different categories you mean

Yeah. Its in the rules, which is a different category. So, its usually in the rules. I said earlier that they have different categories for different people who do it a different way. So, I stand by what I say. Which was its usually in the rules...
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GrimCyclone posted...

Enforced by might and violence.

Lol.
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LinkPizza posted...

TheSlinja posted...

LinkPizza posted...

TheSlinja posted...

Bulbasaur posted...

if you use glitches or tools in your speedrun, then you aren't speedrunning it.

period.

where in the definition of speedrun does it say you cant use glitches

Usually, its in the rules...

usually its split into different categories you mean

Yeah. Its in the rules, which is a different category. So, its usually in the rules. I said earlier that they have different categories for different people who do it a different way. So, I stand by what I say. Which was its usually in the rules...

i said where in the definition of speedrun does it say you cant use glitches, you saying "in the rules" does not imply split categories

this is semantics anyways since we agree apparently
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It depends.
I mean, I don't really care about speedruns that feature a frame perfect jump into a wall or something that skips half the game.
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Zareth posted...

It depends.
I mean, I don't really care about speedruns that feature a frame perfect jump into a wall or something that skips half the game.

Does jumping into a pixel that counts as a ledge really count as a glitch?

(Thinking of an Aria of Sorrow skip I have performed myself, that I doubt requires frame perfect input, but the idea stands)
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Probably the most superfluous of first world problems.
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TheSlinja posted...

LinkPizza posted...

TheSlinja posted...

LinkPizza posted...

TheSlinja posted...

Bulbasaur posted...

if you use glitches or tools in your speedrun, then you aren't speedrunning it.

period.

where in the definition of speedrun does it say you cant use glitches

Usually, its in the rules...

usually its split into different categories you mean

Yeah. Its in the rules, which is a different category. So, its usually in the rules. I said earlier that they have different categories for different people who do it a different way. So, I stand by what I say. Which was its usually in the rules...

i said where in the definition of speedrun does it say you cant use glitches, you saying "in the rules" does not imply split categories

this is semantics anyways since we agree apparently

My earlier comment does imply split categories, though...

LinkPizza posted...

Its just two different speedrun groups. And they like the way they do speed runs better than the other...

Reminds me of subs vs dubs, tbh...

That was post #2. Technically, theres more than two. But the comment does imply more than one group.

But yes. I do agree theres just multiple groups.
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This just showed up in my Youtube suggestions, it feels relevant to this topic...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E86qhcFfjcg" data-time="
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I personally don't get, or care, about speed runs. I play the literal opposite way, I slowly explore and inspect everything, and cannot comprehend why anyone would have fun trying to get through a game as fast as possible.

However, I thought using glitches in speed runs was an accepted practice, as I've heard of people doing it for years.
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For me, I'm not really a fan of glitchless runs. I like seeing how fast a game can be beat with the use of glitches.

Recently, a new glitch was discovered for Majora's Mask that lets you beat the game in under 1 hour for any% runs, though some people are not too crazy about it as it takes away the fun of doing/watching all 4 dungeons, but I'm personally excited to see the glitch used for both any% and 100% runs.

I personally never got the appeal of speedruns. I know people like them, but Im like Dark Kirby where I go super slow to find everything and explore.

That being said, if I watch a speed run, Id rather watch a glitchless run. The glitch ones seem boring as its not really playing the game. At least, thats how I see it...
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DarkKirby2500 posted...

I personally don't get, or care, about speed runs. I play the literal opposite way, I slowly explore and inspect everything, and cannot comprehend why anyone would have fun trying to get through a game as fast as possible.

LinkPizza posted...

I personally never got the appeal of speedruns. I know people like them, but Im like Dark Kirby where I go super slow to find everything and explore.

I feel like most of the time, 99% of the people who like speedruns only like watching them and aren't actually speedrunners.

I'm also the same as you two in that when I play a game I like to play more slowly and explore things. But when I play through a game a second time, I just naturally do it faster since I've already explored things. And if I happen to play through a 3rd time then I should skip even more things that aren't needed.

I've seen speedrunners play other games for the first time and they do play it more slowly then.
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Im a big fan of both but I love how glitched runs can turn an otherwise nothing game into something special, like check out this piece of work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-fQsl_6k4c" data-time="
a great vid out of what would otherwise be a game lost to time
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

DarkKirby2500 posted...

I personally don't get, or care, about speed runs. I play the literal opposite way, I slowly explore and inspect everything, and cannot comprehend why anyone would have fun trying to get through a game as fast as possible.

LinkPizza posted...

I personally never got the appeal of speedruns. I know people like them, but Im like Dark Kirby where I go super slow to find everything and explore.

I feel like most of the time, 99% of the people who like speedruns only like watching them and aren't actually speedrunners.

I'm also the same as you two in that when I play a game I like to play more slowly and explore things. But when I play through a game a second time, I just naturally do it faster since I've already explored things. And if I happen to play through a 3rd time then I should skip even more things that aren't needed.

I've seen speedrunners play other games for the first time and they do play it more slowly then.

Well... yeah? Nobody really speedruns a game on there first playthrough. Well, some do, blind speedruns are a thing. But most speedrunners really only speedrun maybe a handfull of games. These are game that they're very familiar with since they've ran through them dozens of times.
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There's a place for both and both are interesting in their own way.