Current Events > Milo Yiannopolous says that deplatforming alt right users hurts his business.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Intro2Logic posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Which is dangerous. I can't agree with that logic and can't see how it's anything but bad for society as opposed to simply talking to people who disagree with you with patience and rationality.

How much of other people's time and rationality are you willing to spend on debates that have already been settled? At what point are people justified in recognizing that their efforts are not being met in good faith by the other side?

Forever.

That's society. So long as there are 2 people on Earth there will be disagreements.

This doesn't end, it will never end. There will always be disagreements.

Your argument is "The key to the best society is for the majority to silence the minority because I say so" I think that's harmful since it just leads to rejecting anything except what you already believe.

My argument is "The key to the best society is rational discussion and discourse as we all learn and grow."

Good viewpoints and logic as well as improvements in technology push out the views of the past.

I'll repeat Wade Watts and doubly repeat there's solid reason why you keep ignoring him and men like him

Took down an entire KKK chapter by talking to them when they started out just irrationally wanting to kick him out of town.

If your endgame desire is a world where there is nothing but your opinion, not only is that a boring a world but it also is one that literally never will occur at least without some kind of armageddon.

By having a marketplace of thought and ideas, we have to by extension have opinions and viewpoints that the majority don't agree with. Thats just part of the package of civilization.

It's how you handle differing views that matters. You want to use a sword to cut out tongues, I want to change minds.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Forever.

I don't think hispanics and homosexuals should have to spend any more time justifying their existence to people who would just as soon deport them as debate them.

UnfairRepresent posted...

Good viewpoints and logic as well as improvements in technology push out the views of the past.

You know there are fascists marching in the streets, right? Did technology not reach them? Or, perhaps did new technology like the internet afford them platforms they didn't previously have in the pre-digital world? Platforms they used to recruit new people, mostly impressionable young men, to their cause.

UnfairRepresent posted...

If your endgame desire is a world where there is nothing but your opinion, not only is that a boring a world

If a world without Nazis is boring to you, I'm fine being bored.

UnfairRepresent posted...

By having a marketplace of thought and ideas, we have to by extension have opinions and viewpoints that the majority don't agree with.

The thing about marketplaces is: toxic products get sold on them. Cigarettes, alcohol, any number of things that got recalled only after people got hurt. The far right is entirely happy to exploit their god-given spot in the market square to deceive some people and threaten others. And they love when people like you say there's nothing that can be done except hear them out. And Heather Heyer is dead.
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imagine quoting somebody and not even addressing what was actually said, all to defend Nazi ideals.

can't pretend to Nazi that coming.
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Intro2Logic posted...

I don't think hispanics and homosexuals should have to spend any more time justifying their existence to people who would just as soon deport them as debate them.

And I'm sure Wade Watts had better things to do than talk to KKK members.

But he wanted to get rid of the KKK, so he talked to them

Intro2Logic posted...

You know there are fascists marching in the streets, right? Did technology not reach them?

So let's oppose them

Intro2Logic posted...

If a world without Nazis is boring to you, I'm fine being bored.

people call Trump and Obama supporters Nazis
People call Bill Oreilly and Richard Dawkins Nazis
people call those who support Palestine or a two state solution on the west bank Nazis

Going "free speech doesn't apply because I decreed them to be Nazis" is a silly and harmful attitude

If they are Nazis you should have zero problem dismantling their views with discussion and logic since Nazism is do foolish.

Cutting out peoples people's tongues just displays fear of their differing views . it doesn't display that their views are wrong

All men are created equal

All you've done is say "It's absolutely fine for the majority/people in power to come for the minority, so long as they label them something unpleasant first."

A view the Nazis shared ironically.

Which is dangerous. I can't agree with that logic and can't see how it's anything but bad for society as opposed to simply talking to people who disagree with you with patience and rationality.

Hell we've seen that in this very topic, When I brought up people like Wade Watts or the failure of silencing Jesus with force stopping his views, the response was to ignore it. That's the attitude you're compelling "Don't think, don't discuss, don't learn. Just anger and removal of all communication and growth as a society."

You're repeating the same bad points while ignoring the valid retorts.

And at the same time claiming that you don't have time to talk to people who argue in bad faith and ignore responses.

Don't you see the hypocrisy?

Intro2Logic posted...

The thing about marketplaces is: toxic products get sold on them. Cigarettes, alcohol, any number of things that got recalled only after people got hurt. The far right is entirely happy to exploit their god-given spot in the market square to deceive some people and threaten others. And they love when people like you say there's nothing that can be done except hear them out.

Plenty can be done.

Challenge it. Talk to people, think, learn new things, promote ideas that you agree with, ponder why you have the views that you do and don't have the views that you don't.

Question everything.

I just don't agree that cutting out tongues is a beneficial action.

If you oppose free thought and free expression the moment someone disagrees with you then you never supported it in the first place
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UnfairRepresent posted...

If they are Nazis you should have zero problem dismantling their views with discussion and logic since Nazism is do foolish.

We didn't debate the Nazis away in the 1940s. I don't believe debate will be much more effective in 2019, when Donald Trump is president and kids are dying because their parents believed what anti-vaxxers were selling on the marketplace of ideas. The Brits are going to discussion and logic their way out of Europe, and people are continuing to deny climate science despite evidence that's been piling up for decades.

How many views have you dismantled with discussion and logic in your time on GameFAQs? How many trolls' minds have you changed?
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UnfairRepresent posted...

All men are created equal

All people are created equal, but it's your actions and behaviors that determine if you should be treated equally.
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Intro2Logic posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

If they are Nazis you should have zero problem dismantling their views with discussion and logic since Nazism is do foolish.

We didn't debate the Nazis away in the 1940s. I don't believe debate will be much more effective in 2019, when Donald Trump is president and kids are dying because their parents believed what anti-vaxxers were selling on the marketplace of ideas. The Brits are going to discussion and logic their way out of Europe, and people are continuing to deny climate science despite evidence that's been piling up for decades.

Actually we kinda did.

How do you think Nazism died out? The US and UK didn't commit Genocide on Germany and then repopulate it using people from Wales.

But putting that aside, I actually think you're proving my point.

These negative consequences were almost all completely caused by a refusal to talk to people who disagreed. Trump supporters, anti-vaxxers, Brexiters (your examples not mine) all share in common that they were disenfranchised, sidelined and told that they were not allowed to have the opinions that they did.

Clinton's ran possibly the worst campaign in US history because she just assumed she would win a ton of states without even trying.

It's almost like if we embrace your "Let's not talk, not discuss, everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot, label and tongue cut them!" idealogy it leads to harming society.

Who would have thought that?

Except me and Wade Watts and Jesus.

How many views have you dismantled with discussion and logic in your time on GameFAQs? How many trolls' minds have you changed?

A few hundred. Maybe a thousand
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Who would have thought that?

Except me and Wade Watts and Jesus.

How many views have you dismantled with discussion and logic in your time on GameFAQs? How many trolls' minds have you changed?

A few hundred. Maybe a thousand

Please keep taking UR's bait so he can keep posting at this level of entertainment
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Can one of the thousand posters converted from something by UnfairRepresent please make their presence known.
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Has unfair ever changed anybody's mind in his whole life? Or at least on here?
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This topic is slowly converting me from "Unfair should be blocked so I don't have to read their posts or the posts of the people naive enough to argue with them" to

Frolex posted...

Please keep taking UR's bait so he can keep posting at this level of entertainment

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I'm sure he's convinced somebody that buffalos have wings at some point.
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And again.

Evasions and insults all the way down. No actual points or retorts because you don't have any
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I'm like a snarky ninja that way.

high agility AND yo mama.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

And again.

Evasions and insults all the way down. No actual points or retorts because you don't have any

If this is true, why does no one seem to be taking your side in this argument?
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I see they still haven't fixed the issue where the "go to last post" option doesn't work if you have the user that posted it ignored/blocked.
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Intro2Logic posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

And again.

Evasions and insults all the way down. No actual points or retorts because you don't have any

If this is true, why does no one seem to be taking your side in this argument?

Wut

Because people who agree with me wouldn't be insulting others and evading points. Obviously

Insults are what you do when you're childish and have no actual means of counteraction.

Evasions are what you do when you have no point in reponse.

Hence how still no one has addressed things such as Wade Watts. Because his mere existence calls the tongue cutting approach into question just by itself, so since its awkward, you remove Wade Watts from your universe.

You'd rather remove Wade Watts have an entire KKK chapter thrive and not have to deal with the concept of discussion than accept that he took down a KKK chapter just by talking to them
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one reason I don't ignore. scrolling down is my ignore feature, lol.

I'm at a point in my life to where I don't feel compelled to finish reading anything that I feel is stupid. and if I choose to for whatever reason, I definitely don't feel the need to engage in a serious way.
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A society where we simply silence others, even those with radical views, is not a world I want to live in. Because even though what's being silenced today is something I passionately disagree with, that might not be the case for what is silenced tomorrow. It's a dangerous long-term precedent to set.

That being said, nobody is obligated to provide any speaker with a platform to speak.

How many people did Wade Watts convert over social media or a video game message board?
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Darmik posted...

How many people did Wade Watts convert over social media or a video game message board?

Billions, probably
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Here's the thing that the whole "They should be on the platforms so we can talk to them!" always miss. That not everyone wants to use social media to debate with racists or Nazis or just otherwise unpleasant people. They want to just use social media. Milo wasn't banned from Twitter because he's alt-right. He was banned for harassing an actress on their platform and riling up his fans to dogpile on her. Which he had a history of doing.

If you want to go on Stormfront or to Nazi hideouts to have a chat you can go right ahead. But Twitter (or any other social media platform) wants to make a platform that overall provides the best experience for as many people as possible. White supremacists, Nazis and whoever else in their ilk do a remarkable job of being the loudest voice if you let the lunatics run the asylum. Which isn't the right venue for a debate.
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Darmik posted...

Here's the thing that the whole "They should be on the platforms so we can talk to them!" always miss. That not everyone wants to use social media to debate with racists or Nazis or just otherwise unpleasant people.

And they don't have too

Darmik posted...

If you want to go on Stormfront or to Nazi hideouts to have a chat you can go right ahead. But Twitter (or any other social media platform) wants to make a platform that overall provides the best experience for as many people as possible. White supremacists, Nazis and whoever else in their ilk do a remarkable job of being the loudest voice if you let the lunatics run the asylum. Which isn't the right venue for a debate.

So by your logic if "whoever else" was the group in power, all platforms should cater to them and ban everyone else opposed to them?

I mean I know where you're coming from, private companies can do whatever they like. I'm more talking about free speech than Twitter

but it worries me that you're so comfortable with the notion of "Well since the experience would be best for me and people who think like me, minoity views shouldn't be a part of it!" without a care in the world for any potential harm or problems that logic might arise.

I'll repeat yet again

people call Trump and Obama supporters Nazis
People call Bill Oreilly and Richard Dawkins Nazis
people call those who support Palestine or a two state solution on the west bank Nazis

Going "free speech doesn't apply because I decreed them to be Nazis" is a silly and harmful attitude


Christ people call JonTron and AngryJoe Nazis these days. The label is more often than not "Person I dislike" and now you're saying said label should be the basis for tongue cutting rather than free expression.

I can't agree with that.

I'm reminded of Dragonball Z where Bulma wishes back everyone who died "except the really bad ones"

WTF does that even mean?
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Debate hasn't worked on a useful scale for quite some time now. Converting 100 KKK members is impressive, and good, but what is that compared to the extremist conversion rate of unchecked neonazi accounts on youtube?

No, the only people here against deplatforming are the ones who've already had the opinions they agree with shut down.
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Evening_Dragon posted...

Debate hasn't worked on a useful scale for quite some time now.

Nah

This topic alone is proof of that.

When I raised intelligent eloquent points, facts and logic. The respose was insults and evasions because they had no rational thoughts to justify their views.

That says it all.

The only time debate and discussion doesn't work is when people oppose debate and discussion. That's it.

Milo himself is proof of his. When people tried to shun him he stormed to the top and became famous.

Once he was famous and people actually listened to what he was saying, they thought he was a lunatic and he crashed hard.

The thing that killed Milo is millions of people actually listened to what he had to say and thought it was dumb.

"No we have to cut out tongues because I am so utterly terrified of what the tongue has to say" is a terrible attitude.

Discussion always wins in the end. It's what seperated humans from animals.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

When I raised intelligent eloquent points, facts and logic. The respose was insults and evasions because they had no rational thoughts to justify their views.

How's that working out? You winning anyone over here?
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UnfairRepresent posted...

I mean I know where you're coming from, private companies can do whatever they like. I'm more talking about free speech than Twitter

Then considering the topic at hand you're wasting your time.

Milo Yiannopoulos was banned from Twitter because he was harassing people on their platform. He spent his time being a menace on social media to people he disliked and disagreed with. People claimed it would give him more exposure if he was banned and it didn't. Instead he's shriveling up and becoming more irrelevant every single day. So it worked stopping people like him from continuing their behavior.

Milo Yiannopoulos is free to spout his asshole opinions on other platforms no one cares about.
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Evening_Dragon posted...

Debate hasn't worked on a useful scale for quite some time now. Converting 100 KKK members is impressive, and good, but what is that compared to the extremist conversion rate of unchecked neonazi accounts on youtube?

No, the only people here against deplatforming are the ones who've already had the opinions they agree with shut down.

If talking doesn't work, then how are all these neonazis getting converted in the first place?

And no, not all people against deplatforming are inherently pro-thing being deplatformed atm. That's a claim you cannot support.

Intro2Logic posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

When I raised intelligent eloquent points, facts and logic. The respose was insults and evasions because they had no rational thoughts to justify their views.

How's that working out? You winning anyone over here?

Possibly.

Hearts and minds aren't won in a minute

But If I got one person to think "Hmm, maybe I don't know the answer to everything and maybe I need to think about this some more." then yes

You're too keen on instant gratification.

The thing I find most telling is that almost word for word the arguments used in this topic and the fear of open discussion seen in this topic is used by Russians against Homosexuals, or the Chinese against people who question the government.

And you guys are pretending that you don't realize that because you don't want to accept it. Just takes a little wedge in those cracks before the wall comes down and you realize "Maybe people who disagree with me do have a right to express their views."
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Once he was famous and people actually listened to what he was saying, they thought he was a lunatic and he crashed hard.

He crashed hard because he was deplatformed and couldn't get into social media feuds with people anymore.

His fanbase still defended and liked him after his weird young boy and older men sex comments. A specific conservative poster here still defended him for months after that.

But his followers needed him to get exposure from his controversial actions and speeches. They needed people to react to him so they could react to the people reacting. Without that he is nothing. He has no substance outside of offending people. He is unable to offend people if he can no longer reach them.

Deplatforming was absolutely the thing that killed his career. He himself says that.
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Dragonblade01 posted...

If talking doesn't work, then how are all these neonazis getting converted in the first place?

Because it turns out that bullshit can be pretty attractive. And a lot of people will continue to believe bullshit long after something better is placed in front of them. They'll believe vaccines cause autism and decry the facts as brainwashing.
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Intro2Logic posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

If talking doesn't work, then how are all these neonazis getting converted in the first place?

Because it turns out that bullshit can be pretty attractive. And a lot of people will continue to believe bullshit long after something better is placed in front of them.

That's not a helpful analysis of why people are adopting these views. Rather than understand the problem, you would sooner sweep it under the rug and let it fester beneath the surface until there's opportunity for it to bubble up again.

And then it will be just like today all over.

Darmik posted...

He crashed hard because he was deplatformed and couldn't get into social media feuds with people anymore.

Nope.

He crashed before then because views he expressed in small quarters got exposed to wide audiences and were heavily opposed. That was when he started to lose millions and even his own supporters

You're re-writing history. The deplatforming came later.

Darmik posted...

Deplatforming was absolutely the thing that killed his career. He himself says that.

Deplatforming has hurt his income after he already fell from grace.

But it says it all that you have switched from wanting to combat his ideas to wanting to combat his career.

I think your 100% right, cutting out people's tongues will hurt their career.

I just say I don't think that's a good thing. You might not either if you thought about it just a little bit.
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Intro2Logic posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

If talking doesn't work, then how are all these neonazis getting converted in the first place?

Because it turns out that bullshit can be pretty attractive. And a lot of people will continue to believe bullshit long after something better is placed in front of them.

Indeed this topic is proof of that.

So should you be banned for not seeing why you're wrong or should people like me continue to talk to you?

I'll let you figure that one out.

The fact people can be talked into things you disagree with is evidence that they should be talked too. Not evidence that you should cut the tongues of minority views, that's madness.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

He crashed before then because views he expressed in small quarters got exposed to wide audiences and were heavily opposed. That was when he started to lose millions and even his own supporters

You're re-writing history. The deplatforming came later.

Nope. Banned from Twitter June 2016.

Downfall didn't happen until February 2017 which was when finally a large chunk of his conservative platforms dropped him as well.

The funny thing about all of this is Milo previously argued for what eventually happened to him.

https://kernelmag.dailydot.com/yiannopoulos/3359/the-internet-is-turning-us-all-into-sociopaths/

Its clear that existing hate speech laws are inadequate for the social media era. And if we decide, as we perhaps might, that a lifetime ban on the internet is unworkable and disproportionately punitive, given the centrality of the internet to our professional and personal lives these days, what on earth are we to do? No one has yet offered a convincing answer. In the meantime, we are all, bit by bit, growing ever more fearful of the next wave of molestation.

Together with other commentators, I have in the past argued for verified identities on social networks, so those responsible for abuse and persecution of public figures and the vulnerable might be held accountable for their actions. That seems redundant when trolls are now so brazen they dont care about disapproving words from their loved ones back inside Facebook when they leave furious missives using that social networks commenting system elsewhere on the internet.

So perhaps whats needed now is a bolder form of censure after all, because the internet is not a universal human right. If people cannot be trusted to treat one another with respect, dignity and consideration, perhaps they deserve to have their online freedoms curtailed. For sure, the best we could ever hope for is a smattering of unpopular show trials. But if the internet, ubiquitous as it now is, proves too dangerous in the hands of the psychologically fragile, perhaps access to it ought to be restricted. We ban drunks from driving because theyre a danger to others. Isnt it time we did the same to trolls?

Milo isn't some hard done by person beaten down by society and blamed others for his problems. He is an opportunist who found his niche.
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erm, isn't that the same point?

"He was kicked of Twitter but his career fell apart a year later when people rebelled against him"

Unlike you I didn't follow Milo's career so I don't know the dates but he was still a big figure on social media and on Bill Maher's show and other events getting more traffic and support than ever before he fell of the face of the Earth

And what got him is that his new found fame meant millions of people looked up what he had to say and opposed it. Especially his weird attitudes towards underage sex and refusal to out child molesters, not even the stuff you're angry at him for.

Not that his tongue was cut out. Quite the opposite. The fact people listened to him took him down.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

So should you be banned for not seeing why you're wrong or should people like me continue to talk to you?

You've spent 15 hours ITT, and gotten nowhere

How many people are you going to subject to hours on end debating Nazis who do not want to be convinced?

The dignity of marginalized groups can't be up for debate. We have so many better things to do.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

The fact people listened to him took him down.

They took him down how?

By removing his fucking platforms.

We've seen what white nationalists have to say. They never have anything new to add. It's time we remove their fucking platforms. The debate has been had.
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Intro2Logic posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

So should you be banned for not seeing why you're wrong or should people like me continue to talk to you?

You've spent 15 hours ITT, and gotten nowhere

How many people are you going to subject to hours on end debating Nazis who do not want to be convinced?

The dignity of marginalized groups can't be up for debate. We have so many better things to do.

No one is making you debate anything

Just don't cut out tongues so other people can't debate.

That hurts society.

Being lazy hurts society too but that's your active choice with your freedom people died to give you.

Let minority opinions and views exist in an everchanging marketplace of ideas.
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I dont understand America's fetish for zero-tolerance policies and absolutes. The thing about slippary slopes is that they dont have to be all encompasing. Yes we can deplatform neonazis without deplatforming anyone else. And yes, if liberals do take it too far and try deplatforming other more reasonable groups they disagree with, thats the point where they need to be stopped. But I wont shed a tear for neonazis
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UnfairRepresent posted...

No one is making you debate anything

If no other tools are available for dealing with fascists, that is absolutely making people debate them.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Unlike you I didn't follow Milo's career so I don't know the dates but he was still a big figure on social media and on Bill Maher's show and other events getting more traffic and support than ever before he fell of the face of the Earth

It was easy enough to check and confirm when you accused me of 'rewriting history' which you clearly didn't actually bother to confirm.

UnfairRepresent posted...

And what got him is that his new found fame meant millions of people looked up what he had to say and opposed it. Especially his weird attitudes towards underage sex and refusal to out child molesters, not even the stuff you're angry at him for.

His fame wasn't new found. He was around for several years and kept gaining popularity. Twitter ban was the peak of his fame before it went crashing down a few months later.

Now he struggles to remain relevant because nobody cares. He still has a fanbase of several thousand users but they're in their own bubble now not bothering anyone. Because he can't get a platform on places like Twitter or on shows like Fox News.

And yes you're right. It wasn't his extreme or bigoted views that got people to turn on him. It wasn't when he kept harassing people and making their lives worse. It was when someone caught him on a small stream saying weird shit about young boys having sex with men.
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Intro2Logic posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

No one is making you debate anything

If no other tools are available for dealing with fascists, that is absolutely making people debate them.

Yes and that is a good thing.

But you said you don't want to be a part of that, and you don't have to be.

IF you want to go down in history as someone who never opposed fascism you can do just that and never debate them

OR you can discuss and learn and grow and think about things and make society better.

That's your choice.

Just don't cut out minority tongues because you're too close minded to handle differing views existing. That will never ever end well and there are thousands of examples in history of it.

Pretty much every fascist you just claimed to oppose tried to stop people questioning or debating them and silenced minority views also.

First they came...
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I can only read like every fourth post in this thread it's amazing

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Yes and that is a good thing.

I don't think having the same arguments from the 1930s over and over ad infinitum is a good thing.
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Intro2Logic posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Yes and that is a good thing.

I don't think having the same arguments from the 1930s over and over ad infinitum is a good thing.

Then you'll be disappointed to know the same arguments about the existence of God have been going on since recorded history and have no signs of stopping.

You seem legitimately angry about the fact some people are going to have different views to you and that you cannot beat them into submission or remove them from reality?

Can't you see why that mindset is bad on a societal level?

Marketplace of ideas.

Toasters have been on the market for over a century. One day technology will move on and probably leave toasters behind, but it may be centuries.

You might not like toasters, but that's no reason to destroy them because the thought of other people having them for centuries upsets you.

Ideas aren't too different.

Some people are not going to like the taste of bacon. You can't stop that by cutting out tongues. It's always going to be a thing. It's best to embrace it.
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Why doesn't Unfair sign up for a Telegram account and debate Milo into being a better person? He's done it a thousand times here apparently. The guy seems down that his small fanbase doesn't pay him lots of money so should be easy.
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