Current Events > Dave Chappelle on Abortion If you can kill them I can at least abandon him

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darkjedilink posted...

OctilIery posted...

CapnMuffin posted...

Having sex isnt a right

I mean... Yes, yes it us.

So, rape doesn't exist?

It exists more than your reading comprehension.

What do you mean by "sex is a right"?

I'm pro choice, but I never really considered that view. I think I agree with it. If you want your girlfriend to have an abortion and she wants to keep it anyway, it seems reasonable that you shouldn't be held responsible for the child since she has an out she's not taking
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Dragonblade01 posted...

What do you mean by "sex is a right"?

That having sex is a right. Still needs to be consensual because obviously, but everyone who gets consent has the right to sex.

Fair
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ThyCorndog posted...

I'm pro choice, but I never really considered that view. I think I agree with it. If you want your girlfriend to have an abortion and she wants to keep it anyway, it seems reasonable that you shouldn't be held responsible for the child since she has an out she's not taking

Except abortion isn't an out, and child support is about the child not the woman.

I think you're using an arbitrary definition of right that means so little that one could say that breathing air is a right or using your legs to walk is a right and you're using that definition to walk the line of rape defense for shits and giggles.
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OctilIery posted...

ThyCorndog posted...

I'm pro choice, but I never really considered that view. I think I agree with it. If you want your girlfriend to have an abortion and she wants to keep it anyway, it seems reasonable that you shouldn't be held responsible for the child since she has an out she's not taking

Except abortion isn't an out, and child support is about the child not the woman.

I agree with the 2nd part, but why isn't abortion an out? I'm on the fence about this but yeah
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OctilIery posted...

everyone who gets consent has the right to sex.

I suppose it's not the most important point of the topic, but I hesitate to call it a right. That makes it sound like the moment you get consent that you now have a right to have sex with your partner, instead of said partner being able to withdraw consent whenever they want.

ThyCorndog posted...

I agree with the 2nd part, but why isn't abortion an out? I'm on the fence about this but yeah

You can call abortion an out, but the reason abortion is permissible has nothing to do with providing women a way to relieve themselves of parental obligation.

Dragonblade01 posted...

ThyCorndog posted...

I agree with the 2nd part, but why isn't abortion an out? I'm on the fence about this but yeah

You can call abortion an out, but the reason abortion is permissible has nothing to do with providing women a way to relieve themselves of parental obligation.

why else would you get one besides that you don't want a kid? ignoring health conditions, because even most republicans seem to be on board when it comes to that
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or are you just talking about body autonomy and only body autonomy?
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ThyCorndog posted...

OctilIery posted...

ThyCorndog posted...

I'm pro choice, but I never really considered that view. I think I agree with it. If you want your girlfriend to have an abortion and she wants to keep it anyway, it seems reasonable that you shouldn't be held responsible for the child since she has an out she's not taking

Except abortion isn't an out, and child support is about the child not the woman.

I agree with the 2nd part, but why isn't abortion an out? I'm on the fence about this but yeah

Because Abortion comes with a lot of nasty shit attached to it and isn't the easy solution people make it out to be.

OctilIery posted...

ThyCorndog posted...

OctilIery posted...

ThyCorndog posted...

I'm pro choice, but I never really considered that view. I think I agree with it. If you want your girlfriend to have an abortion and she wants to keep it anyway, it seems reasonable that you shouldn't be held responsible for the child since she has an out she's not taking

Except abortion isn't an out, and child support is about the child not the woman.

I agree with the 2nd part, but why isn't abortion an out? I'm on the fence about this but yeah

Because Abortion comes with a lot of nasty shit attached to it and isn't the easy solution people make it out to be.

well it's not easy, but neither is raising a kid you aren't financially ready for. I think abortions should always be free so that being trapped between two choices of poverty isnt there at least
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ThyCorndog posted...

or are you just talking about body autonomy and only body autonomy?

Bodily autonomy is the reason that abortion is morally permissible, yes. That is how it is distinct from men who want to give up parental obligation.

Dragonblade01 posted...

ThyCorndog posted...

or are you just talking about body autonomy and only body autonomy?

Bodily autonomy is the reason that abortion is morally permissible, yes. That is how it is distinct from men who want to give up parental obligation.

I guess I just operate from the idea that you shouldn't be forced to go through something you don't want to go through if you didn't agree to it
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ThyCorndog posted...

I guess I just operate from the idea that you shouldn't be forced to go through something you don't want to go through if you didn't agree to it

That's a good starting point for discussing whether parents should be allowed to give up parental obligation on principal, but abortion is permissible regardless.

ThyCorndog posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

ThyCorndog posted...

or are you just talking about body autonomy and only body autonomy?

Bodily autonomy is the reason that abortion is morally permissible, yes. That is how it is distinct from men who want to give up parental obligation.

I guess I just operate from the idea that you shouldn't be forced to go through something you don't want to go through if you didn't agree to it

You agree to the possibility of having a kid when you have sex with someone. Everyone knows that protection isn't always 100% effective.
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So we're taking obvious jokes at 100% face value now?
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OctilIery posted...

And you're wrong. Simple as that. The system needs to be better, but until it is, siding with the kid is priority even if it might not help the kid as much as it should.

This isn't really a child's issue. It's an issue regarding men abandoning women. It hurts both of them. Men aren't hurt by women having abortions but both children and their mothers are hurt by men abandoning them.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

OctilIery posted...

And you're wrong. Simple as that. The system needs to be better, but until it is, siding with the kid is priority even if it might not help the kid as much as it should.

This isn't really a child's issue. It's an issue regarding men abandoning women. It hurts both of them. Men aren't hurt by women having abortions but both children and their mothers are hurt by men abandoning them.

Well, that depends on if the guy would want to keep the baby.
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emblem boy posted...

Well, that depends on if the guy would want to keep the baby.

Relationship problems have nothing to do with money, status, or legal responsibility.

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Men don't have rights when it comes to children, deal with it

Dragonblade01 posted...

ThyCorndog posted...

I agree with the 2nd part, but why isn't abortion an out? I'm on the fence about this but yeah

You can call abortion an out, but the reason abortion is permissible has nothing to do with providing women a way to relieve themselves of parental obligation.

Yes, because the reason abortion is permissible has nothing to do with the reason abortion is performed.

The reason for an abortion is NOT "body autonomy" or whatever. That's the reason for abortion being permissible,

Now the reason why an abortion is performed might very, very well be providing a woman a way to relieve themselves of parental obligation. Abortion is one of the choices they have to relieve themselves. Men don't have any such choice.
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DarthAragorn posted...

Men don't have rights when it comes to children, deal with it

Thank you. Maybe people can simply acknowledge that instead of acting all high and mighty... and disingenuous, to put it politely.
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DarthAragorn posted...

Men don't have rights when it comes to children, deal with it

Which is why I'm thankful that I'll never have children.

And if by some great misfortune it does happen, I'll take prison over paying child support.
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ThyCorndog posted...

Dragonblade01 posted...

ThyCorndog posted...

or are you just talking about body autonomy and only body autonomy?

Bodily autonomy is the reason that abortion is morally permissible, yes. That is how it is distinct from men who want to give up parental obligation.

I guess I just operate from the idea that you shouldn't be forced to go through something you don't want to go through if you didn't agree to it

Tough titty. Shouldn't have stuck your dick in. Actions have consequences.

If you're a man, either die a virgin or learn how to tie a good noose once the contraceptives fail (or she cheats and you get fucked over anyway), lol.
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Wait so do comedians just tell jokes we shouldn't take seriously, or should I accept this as a valid argument?
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As soon as men get pregnant, they can make such decisions.

A born baby needs support and if we want the father to be able to opt out and don't want people to suck off the state's teat, then who is funding these children? I hear children shouldn't pay for the mistakes of their parents, so is it right to force them to be raised on a single paycheck in a broken home?
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The laws will always be against men and fathers. Better to adapt to the laws than whine about changing them when that will never happen.

Men will always white knight women because they think it will help them get laid.

hockeybub89 posted...

Wait so do comedians just tell jokes we shouldn't take seriously, or should I accept this as a valid argument?

This, it's very interesting to see so many people taking the joke as an insightful political argument. But if someone were to say it's a bad and messed up thing to say, then they're killing comedy and taking jokes too seriously.

This is another example of "jokes" that are laundering real political statements. It's one thing if the premise of the joke is that this point of view is ridiculous, but if the joke is that not being able to abandon responsibility is crazy, that's just a political argument in joke form.
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Seems like part of the issue is people are seeing the child support payments as punishment to themselves. Which I don't think is the right way to see it
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emblem boy posted...

Seems like part of the issue is people are seeing the child support payments as punishment to themselves. Which I don't think is the right way to see it

These are people that are perfectly fine with the idea of abandoning their own progeny out of sheer selfishness. Of course they see it that way.

CapnMuffin posted...

Having sex isnt a right so Im not seeing why there should be get out of jail free cards for the consequences

So you're pro-life then?
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And on the subject of "it's just a joke", well that's just a stupid thing to say. It's a joke because it's a good point, it's not a joke because it doesn't make sense. You not only missed the joke, you also have a skewed sense of humor if you think this is funny... because it's nonsensical or some other dumb reason like that.

If you want to say that it doesn't make sense, then I'm sorry, you don't get to laugh. You do get to be offended... if you want to? Which is probably what you want anyways. I don't know why, but hey.
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paerarru posted...

And on the subject of "it's just a joke", well that's just a stupid thing to say. It's a joke because it's a good point, it's not a joke because it doesn't make sense. You not only missed the joke, you also have a skewed sense of humor if you think this is funny... because it's nonsensical or some other dumb reason like that.

If you want to say that it doesn't make sense, then I'm sorry, you don't get to laugh. You do get to be offended... if you want to? Which is probably what you want anyways. I don't know why, but hey.

It's only a good point if you fundamentally misunderstand what child support is for. And if the point is that it's a good point, I don't wanna hear anyone criticized for saying it's a bad point and that he shouldn't have said it.

No one wants to be offended. I think Chapelle is a really funny comedian. But this stuff isn't ground breaking or provocative in the good way, it's the same argument I've seen posted on thus board multiple times a week, just told on stage. And it's very clear people are confusing "funny" and "thought provoking" with "what I already thought". And that's the danger with political comedy.
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PrideOfLion posted...

I would support parental abandonment as a legally protected right the second the state is able to provide for the child and single parent to a proper degree

I would agree with parental abandonment given the following process.

1. The father must agree to pay 100% for an abortion as well as any related medical procedures OR pay for medical delivery bills while also signing POA to give the child up for adoption along with the mother. The choice of what the father must pay for is left up to the mother.
2. The mother, after receiving this offer, refuses to accept it.
3. A paternal divorce is filed.


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legendary_zell posted...

It's only a good point if you fundamentally misunderstand what child support is for. And if the point is that it's a good point, I don't wanna hear anyone criticized for saying it's a bad point and that he shouldn't have said it.

No one wants to be offended. I think Chapelle is a really funny comedian. But this stuff isn't ground breaking or provocative in the good way, it's the same argument I've seen posted on thus board multiple times a week, just told on stage. And it's very clear people are confusing "funny" and "thought provoking" with "what I already thought". And that's the danger with political comedy.

Again for the nth time, the joke is not about child support OR abortion, not primarily. Neither of those two topics are the main topic of the joke, the reason why the joke is funny.
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paerarru posted...

Yes, because the reason abortion is permissible has nothing to do with the reason abortion is performed.

The reason for an abortion is NOT "body autonomy" or whatever. That's the reason for abortion being permissible,

Now the reason why an abortion is performed might very, very well be providing a woman a way to relieve themselves of parental obligation. Abortion is one of the choices they have to relieve themselves. Men don't have any such choice.

The reason for getting an abortion doesn't matter. Why it's allowed does. Men don't have the choice because the reason it's allowed is fundamentally different from any reason men (or parents in general) would be allowed to give up parental obligation.

hockeybub89 posted...

As soon as men get pregnant, they can make such decisions.

A born baby needs support and if we want the father to be able to opt out and don't want people to suck off the state's teat, then who is funding these children? I hear children shouldn't pay for the mistakes of their parents, so is it right to force them to be raised on a single paycheck in a broken home?

So women can't provide just as well (if not better when looking at college graduation rates) than men?
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ZeroX91 posted...

So women can't provide just as well (if not better when looking at college graduation rates) than men?

Not sure about women in general. Absolutely definitely not single mothers.

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Dragonblade01 posted...

The reason for getting an abortion doesn't matter. Why it's allowed does. Men don't have the choice because the reason it's allowed is fundamentally different from any reason men (or parents in general) would be allowed to give up parental obligation.

No, the reason why abortion is allowed is inconsequential because the point is not about abortion being allowed or not. If you have to get into why abortion is allowed you're already way past missing the point.

Abortion provides women a way to relieve themselves of parental obligation, period. Even whether that's the actual reason for an abortion or not doesn't matter, it only matters that they have that choice. Don't wanna deal with a child? Abort. Simple as that. There's not even any special reason why women are allowed to relieve themselves of parental obligation. There's no reason why they're not allowed, so they simply are.

Your last point is just nonsense. You're basically saying men aren't allowed to give up parental obligation because women are. "Women have body autonomy. Therefore they are allowed to relieve themselves of parental obligation. Men don't have body autonomy. So they're not allowed." Men don't have the choice to relieve themselves of parental obligation because men can't abort, period. The reason why anything is "allowed" or not, whether that be abortion or abandonment, is way past the point.
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paerarru posted...

No, the reason why abortion is allowed is inconsequential because the point is not about abortion being allowed or not. If you have to get into why abortion is allowed you're already way past missing the point.

Abortion provides women a way to relieve themselves of parental obligation, period. Even whether that's the actual reason for an abortion or not doesn't matter, it only matters that they have that choice. Don't wanna deal with a child? Abort. Simple as that. There's not even any special reason why women are allowed to relieve themselves of parental obligation. There's no reason why they're not allowed, so they simply are.

Your last point is just nonsense. You're basically saying men aren't allowed to give up parental obligation because women are. "Women have body autonomy. Therefore they are allowed to relieve themselves of parental obligation. Men don't have body autonomy. So they're not allowed." Men don't have the choice to relieve themselves of parental obligation because men can't abort, period. The reason why anything is "allowed" or not, whether that be abortion or abandonment, is way past the point.

You've got it entirely backwards. It doesn't matter that women can use abortions to give up parental obligation. The question of whether or not women should be able to give up parental obligation is irrelevant to whether abortion should be allowed or not. And because it's irrelevant to whether women should be able to give up parental obligation, it's irrelevant to whether men should be able to as well.

The fact that women have an option to give up parental obligation because abortions are permissible is not important whatsoever to the discussion of whether parents as a rule should have a means to give up parental obligation or not.

Also, your understanding of bodily autonomy is lacking. Men have bodily autonomy.

Yes, abortion being permissible or not, any reasons for abortion being permissible or not, all that stuff is completely irrelevant to whether women or men are allowed to give up obligation. You're making progress! Except there's no "question" of whether or not women should be able to give up parental obligation, either. They ARE able, period. Men aren't.

Yeah, neither is this a discussion of "whether parents as a rule should have a means to give up parental obligation or not". Women have a means, men don't. That's all.

I know men have body autonomy, I was showing how ridiculous your argument is. Women "are allowed" to relieve themselves of parental obligation, effectively abandoning a child. Men don't have such a choice. This is funny, but we don't expect you to get it.

"Abortion is permissible because women have body autonomy."

Right. Okay. We're done btw, if you don't get it, it's hopeless.
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paerarru posted...

Yes, abortion being permissible or not, any reasons for abortion being permissible or not, all that stuff is completely irrelevant to whether women or men are allowed to give up obligation. You're making progress! Except there's no "question" of whether or not women should be able to give up parental obligation, either. They ARE able, period. Men aren't.

Yeah, neither is this a discussion of "whether parents as a rule should have a means to give up parental obligation or not". Women have a means, men don't. That's all.

I know men have body autonomy, I was showing how ridiculous your argument is. Women "are allowed" to relieve themselves of parental obligation, effectively abandoning a child. Men don't have such a choice. This is funny, but we don't expect you to get it.

"Abortion is permissible because women have body autonomy."

Right. Okay. We're done btw, if you don't get it, it's hopeless.

I don't think you actually understand my point. I'm saying that men shouldn't automatically "get an out" just because women do, because the issue of "getting an out "is entirely separate from abortion. Men aren't required to get an out just because abortion happens to give women an out. That doesn't follow at all.

How in 2019 do people still have trouble with the concept that a comedian can inception an idea in your head through a joke.

I mean its really not a hard concept to understand and its definitely not new by any means. The Daily Show built an entire fucking brand around it since the 90s. I dont imagine they invented it but I mean you think that would be enough for anyone to Be familiar with it.

Which is why I think theres absolutely some merit in what hes saying but i really have no interest arguing about that point. Just amazed at how little critical thinking is really done around here.
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I agree with Dave on this one, and I loved the comedy special.
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