Current Events > I don't think Smash Ultimate is a good online or competitive game.

(+) Yeah! (+)

As a casual game with friends or just messing around, it's phenomenal. Easily the best in the series in that regard. When it comes to the online component or competitively, this game is not that great.

Online has so many problems that it is ridiculous. First and foremost, players should be able to change their characters after a match without having to find a new opponent. It's extremely disappointing when I find a good player that I want to rematch over and over again but we have to stick to the same characters. There should also be more ways to communicate with your opponents. It would be fantastic if the player could ask for a best 2 out of 3 set or whatever but we cannot.

Another problem with online is the matchmaking. Some of my characters are in the 5.6 million GSP range, it makes no sense that I'm being matched against people who are using characters with GSP below 3 million. Of course I'm going to win. How am I supposed to feel good about that? Not only that but I don't even get my preferred settings if it's not 1v1, no items, 3 stock, battlefield or FD only. Good luck getting your preferred settings if you want some team matches but I never do.

Lag is awful. Even with wired connection, it's still bad at times. Too many matches I've lost due to the lag or heavy input delay. It's ridiculous. Arenas fixes some of these issues but it's annoying when the host closes the arena suddenly in the middle of a match. That happens way too often.

From a competitive standpoint, it's not that great. I have zero problems with Ultimate being based around fundamentals. In fact, I like that. I play fighting games like Street Fighter, Capcom vs SnK, Mahvel, Vampire Savior, etc. so I like the fundamental aspect. The problem is that half of the roster in this game can be summed up in one playstyle. It's "spam aerials" the game or "use this one move into the same. exact. combo." the game.

I cannot stress how annoying it is to go up against a Luigi, Ness, Shulk, Mario, Joker, Palutena, Inkling, Link, Lucina, Jigglypuff, Falcon, the rats, and whomever else because I know what the player is going to do. It never fails. Matched up against a Ness? PK fire until it connects into up throw followed by either PK thunder or fair. Palutena? Nothing but nair. It's nothing but flowcharts and that's not very entertaining at all. You can play this game like a complete thoughtless fool and get away with it because some of the options are so safe that it's hard to punish. Might as well play defensively and campy because it's not advantageous to be the aggressor.

The buffering system and parrying system should be tweaked. I wouldn't mind some more advanced tech to be introduced in the game but that's just my personal opinion.

Smash Ultimate is a fantastic casual game. I like it a lot but I cannot stand online or competitive play. Just can't do it.

I main Wii Fit Trainer. She's obviously best girl.


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What amazes me is that I shit talked Sm4sh online so much, and somehow, Ultimates online is even worse. I actually miss For Glory in some ways

The fact that you aren't guaranteed your preferences would have any other game on headlines

And of all the preferences, nothing for connection integrity, the most important element... period

Playing smash without all the crazy items and stuff is just dumb to me. It's not a good competitive fighter at all, the closest it was was melee and that was it. Just an accident
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The_Scarecrow posted...

The problem is that half of the roster in this game can be summed up in one playstyle. It's "spam aerials" the game or "use this one move into the same. exact. combo." the game.

This is where I gotta disagree with you. A lot of the focus has been shifted away from advanced tech skill and into fundamentals, true, but the faster playstyle has shifted it away from the campfest of Brawl/SSB4, and the fact that more of the roster is viable than ever before means that the match ups have a lot more of a diverse feel.

At the very least, you don't have this shit in the meta (yet)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WQSRyIBAF8" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3gigsb4jt0" data-time="

The netcode is absolutely abysmal though, and I'm not a fan of how buffering is handled either (always SDing to recoveries facing the wrong way ;>_>)
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I disagree with the game being bad as a competitive game, sure it boils down to match ups but with 70+ characters, that just gives you more incentives to study and analyze how other characters work and there are character shown to be played differently, even though it's not the most "optimize" way of playing. Though I do agree with you about having more advance techs, hence it's why SF3 is my favorite video game of all time. You can spam projectiles all you want in that game, but you will be punished hard if you play predictably.

With all that said, I 100% agree with online. It's such a goddamn broken mess and the fact they make you pay for a subscription to even play it makes it even worst than SSB4. It's one of the worst online "fighting" game I played in awhile (other than terribad anime arena fighters).
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Agreed, but I also think the game falters in single player mode compared to past SSBs. Overall I was quite disappointed with this entry
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Online is garbage, that's a know fact.

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Duh
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FL81 posted...

This is where I gotta disagree with you. A lot of the focus has been shifted away from advanced tech skill and into fundamentals, true, but the faster playstyle has shifted it away from the campfest of Brawl/SSB4, and the fact that more of the roster is viable than ever before means that the match ups have a lot more of a diverse feel.

At the very least, you don't have this shit in the meta (yet)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WQSRyIBAF8" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3gigsb4jt0" data-time="

The netcode is absolutely abysmal though, and I'm not a fan of how buffering is handled either (always SDing to recoveries facing the wrong way ;>_>)

True, we don't have anything as bad as Sm4sh Bayonetta or Brawl Meta Knight thankfully. I do like the Ultimate is generally much more faster paced than Sm4sh and Brawl. I fact, I went back to those games not too long ago and it was the pacing was drastically different. I'm just generally not a fan of how some characters completely rely on aerials to survive or dominate. I'm not sure whether it's only the matches I've played either online or at local tourneys but every Ike or Shulk, for example, that I've come across completely relies on those aerials. Maybe it's more at fault of the player base but it's as if some people refuse to adapt to strategies and play styles.

And yeah, I'm always SDing because the recovery is facing the wrong way. That can be really irritating especially when it's a good match.

Prestoff posted...

I disagree with the game being bad as a competitive game, sure it boils down to match ups but with 70+ characters, that just gives you more incentives to study and analyze how other characters work and there are character shown to be played differently, even though it's not the most "optimize" way of playing. Though I do agree with you about having more advance techs, hence it's why SF3 is my favorite video game of all time. You can spam projectiles all you want in that game, but you will be punished hard if you play predictably.

With all that said, I 100% agree with online. It's such a goddamn broken mess and the fact they make you pay for a subscription to even play it makes it even worst than SSB4. It's one of the worst online "fighting" game I played in awhile (other than terribad anime arena fighters).

Love SF3. The tech in that game is amazing even though I'm not super great at it. I know that characters can be played differently. I think the core issue I have is the player base tends to stick with one way to play these characters. They probably watch a video or follow a guide online on how to play said character but never deviate or try new tactics. I hate fighting Ness players so much because many of them will spend the entire match trying to get a PK Fire to connect. It's like that with Luigi players and the grab. I wish people would adapt instead of sticking to what they know.


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I feel like part of the reason i've lost interest in the series is just me getting older and not having as much access to people to play with locally. that said, i also don't really care a whole lot for the direction the series has taken since Sm4sh, which is coincidentally when Namco Bandai replaced HAL labs as co-developor

KillerKhan420 posted...

It's not a good competitive fighter at all, the closest it was was melee and that was it. Just an accident

i'd argue that a lot of the core things that make Melee great were deliberate design decisions.
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The_Scarecrow posted...

FL81 posted...

This is where I gotta disagree with you. A lot of the focus has been shifted away from advanced tech skill and into fundamentals, true, but the faster playstyle has shifted it away from the campfest of Brawl/SSB4, and the fact that more of the roster is viable than ever before means that the match ups have a lot more of a diverse feel.

At the very least, you don't have this shit in the meta (yet)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WQSRyIBAF8" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3gigsb4jt0" data-time="

The netcode is absolutely abysmal though, and I'm not a fan of how buffering is handled either (always SDing to recoveries facing the wrong way ;>_>)

True, we don't have anything as bad as Sm4sh Bayonetta or Brawl Meta Knight thankfully. I do like the Ultimate is generally much more faster paced than Sm4sh and Brawl. I fact, I went back to those games not too long ago and it was the pacing was drastically different. I'm just generally not a fan of how some characters completely rely on aerials to survive or dominate. I'm not sure whether it's only the matches I've played either online or at local tourneys but every Ike or Shulk, for example, that I've come across completely relies on those aerials. Maybe it's more at fault of the player base but it's as if some people refuse to adapt to strategies and play styles.

And yeah, I'm always SDing because the recovery is facing the wrong way. That can be really irritating especially when it's a good match.

Prestoff posted...

I disagree with the game being bad as a competitive game, sure it boils down to match ups but with 70+ characters, that just gives you more incentives to study and analyze how other characters work and there are character shown to be played differently, even though it's not the most "optimize" way of playing. Though I do agree with you about having more advance techs, hence it's why SF3 is my favorite video game of all time. You can spam projectiles all you want in that game, but you will be punished hard if you play predictably.

With all that said, I 100% agree with online. It's such a goddamn broken mess and the fact they make you pay for a subscription to even play it makes it even worst than SSB4. It's one of the worst online "fighting" game I played in awhile (other than terribad anime arena fighters).

Love SF3. The tech in that game is amazing even though I'm not super great at it. I know that characters can be played differently. I think the core issue I have is the player base tends to stick with one way to play these characters. They probably watch a video or follow a guide online on how to play said character but never deviate or try new tactics. I hate fighting Ness players so much because many of them will spend the entire match trying to get a PK Fire to connect. It's like that with Luigi players and the grab. I wish people would adapt instead of sticking to what they know.

Come on, the online being bad may be right, but if you have a problem with Ness spam then you lose all right to judge the game on a competitive level.
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I know playing local vs online is like night in day in most fighting games, but is this games online play is a whole different beast

shit feels like a underwater bout in mario party, it doesnt even feel like a smash bros game

if it wasnt for nes/snes online, and tetris 99, id ask for a refund for the online

Of course it's not a good online game, the netcode is trash
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I haven't played smash ultimate but so long as they never repeat smash4s tourney mode online I doubt it could ever be worse.

As for the online I'm not sure if it'll help the same but try playing during low population hours. Like late/mid night and school hours. As it's likely you're be up against older and better players with superior connections then.

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The_Scarecrow posted...

I hate fighting Ness players so much because many of them will spend the entire match trying to get a PK Fire to connect.

Hmm. Have you attended locals or are you basing your experience off online play?

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WonkyKong posted...

Come on, the online being bad may be right, but if you have a problem with Ness spam then you lose all right to judge the game on a competitive level.

Not even. It's not just Ness. I was watching some tournament level matches earlier today and the argument still stands. You have MKLeo winning tournament after tournament because he lets up when he's near KO in order to summon Arsene. Then, it's GG. Every Joker player ever pulls that same crap. So, the only viable strategy is to stall a Joker with Arsene or finish the stock before Arsene can come out. The argument that most characters are played one way by most players is absolutely true. There's not much variety when it comes to play styles. For the first time in a long time tonight, I ran into a Ness player who didn't PK Fire spam and it was so refreshing. It was actually a great match because this player used their PSI Magnet to adapt to my Richter constant barrage of projectiles and tilts. It didn't absorb the projectiles. They used to ability to slow down their fall speed slightly so my projectiles would miss.

That is what I want from this game.

Even discounting all of the above for the sake of argument, this game's competitive scene hinges a lot of guessing in neutral which leads to buffered spot dodges. Even though the pacing of the match is faster than say Brawl or Sm4sh, players still play defensively. What we see happening in matches tend to be a lot of fake aggression. It's effectively better to bait your opponent then proceed to punish once they make a mistake or zone out the opponent or play a keep away game.

Thinking about it, I can't be too upset that most players follow the same flowchart. For many characters in the game, they don't have too many ways to apply pressure. Throwing out a nair or fair for several characters is incredibly safe not to mention you don't have to worry about proper spacing all that much. It's less fun to play the game that way but if you want to win, you'll do it anyways.

All I really think Ultimate needs is the introduction of more advanced techniques and a fix on the buffer system as well as the parry system. It'll never happen. I understand why Sakurai developed Ultimate the way he did and I can respect that. Regardless of how I feel, I still think it's a great video game. Online really needs to be reworked, however,


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HannibalBarca3 posted...

Hmm. Have you attended locals or are you basing your experience off online play?

I do both locals and online play. My local scene has a tournament and casual play every Tuesday night. I don't attend very often because of the smell and I'd rather play something else but they only care about Smash. The local college I attended also had a scene but it's only Smash.

Nobody plays anything else unfortunately unless you want to get into League of Legends.

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one of the biggest problems with ultimate i think is the lack of microspacing options

smash 4 at least had perfect pivoting, which while a far cry from something like wavedashing, at least created small microspacing opportunities. ultimate doesn't have any, and since aerials are so safe now (also thanks to everyone having faster jumpsquat) and grounded movement is still very committal, it's really not too surprising that's the way most people play

i just want more opportunities for people to do cool shit. to watch a player like MKleo have more spacing and movement options and see all the insane stuff he'd be able to pull off.
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PowerOats posted...

I actually miss For Glory in some ways

It's still active

Delirious_Beard posted...

one of the biggest problems with ultimate i think is the lack of microspacing options

smash 4 at least had perfect pivoting, which while a far cry from something like wavedashing, at least created small microspacing opportunities. ultimate doesn't have any, and since aerials are so safe now (also thanks to everyone having faster jumpsquat) and grounded movement is still very committal, it's really not too surprising that's the way most people play

i just want more opportunities for people to do cool shit. to watch a player like MKleo have more spacing and movement options and see all the insane stuff he'd be able to pull off.

True, I was reading up on Sm4sh's best player ZeRo says Ultimate is disrespectful to the series because it's based purely on fundamentals and lacks advanced tech. I don't think it's disrespectful but I really do think this game would benefit tremendously from more options.

Maybe in a year or two, more stuff will be discovered in the game. Who knows

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there's a portion of top smash 4/ultimate players who actually preferred competitive brawl to the recent games. i think the surprising amount of tech in that game has a lot to do with it, along with some really fun top tiers. the main problem was just how campy the game was.

the problem is also that the newer games are patchable. smash 4 actually retained a few brawl advanced techniques (notably DACUS), but they were quickly patched out of the game. even if new cool stuff is discovered (which i kinda doubt given the amount of labbers and dataminers there are today, as well as how easy it is to get stuff public) there's no guarantee it would stay
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Delirious_Beard posted...

there's a portion of top smash 4/ultimate players who actually preferred competitive brawl to the recent games. i think the surprising amount of tech in that game has a lot to do with it, along with some really fun top tiers. the main problem was just how campy the game was.

the problem is also that the newer games are patchable. smash 4 actually retained a few brawl advanced techniques (notably DACUS), but they were quickly patched out of the game. even if new cool stuff is discovered (which i kinda doubt given the amount of labbers and dataminers there are today, as well as how easy it is to get stuff public) there's no guarantee it would stay

True. I think Sakurai would want the game to stay the way it is in its current state.

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