Current Events > Martin Scorsese pens op-ed for NYT about Marvel not being cinema...

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/opinion/martin-scorsese-marvel.html

here's a few snippets

Many of the elements that define cinema as I know it are there in Marvel pictures. Whats not there is revelation, mystery or genuine emotional danger. Nothing is at risk. The pictures are made to satisfy a specific set of demands, and they are designed as variations on a finite number of themes.

They are sequels in name but they are remakes in spirit, and everything in them is officially sanctioned because it cant really be any other way. Thats the nature of modern film franchises: market-researched, audience-tested, vetted, modified, revetted and remodified until theyre ready for consumption.

Another way of putting it would be that they are everything that the films of Paul Thomas Anderson or Claire Denis or Spike Lee or Ari Aster or Kathryn Bigelow or Wes Anderson are not. When I watch a movie by any of those filmmakers, I know Im going to see something absolutely new and be taken to unexpected and maybe even unnameable areas of experience. My sense of what is possible in telling stories with moving images and sounds is going to be expanded.

And if youre going to tell me that its simply a matter of supply and demand and giving the people what they want, Im going to disagree. Its a chicken-and-egg issue. If people are given only one kind of thing and endlessly sold only one kind of thing, of course theyre going to want more of that one kind of thing.

Today, that tension is gone, and there are some in the business with absolute indifference to the very question of art and an attitude toward the history of cinema that is both dismissive and proprietary a lethal combination. The situation, sadly, is that we now have two separate fields: Theres worldwide audiovisual entertainment, and theres cinema. They still overlap from time to time, but thats becoming increasingly rare. And I fear that the financial dominance of one is being used to marginalize and even belittle the existence of the other.

hoping people can avoid using words such as "jealous" and "out of touch" and "cloud" in the replies!

all hail king marty!
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For some reason I read the title as penis opted and I was confused for like 30 seconds lol
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He seems jealous, out of touch and cloud
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Zithers posted...

And I fear that the financial dominance of one is being used to marginalize and even belittle the existence of the other.

Considering how there's this weird backlash against movies critics like (and backlash against movie directors who say they dislike Marvel movies) I think he has a valid point.

Unfortunately due to the way he and his opposition are being pedantic about the word 'cinema' and what that should mean the conversation has drifted into a rather pointless debate. Pretty much a retread of the whole 'are video games art' argument.
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Jesus dude let it go...

I don't really care for Marvel movies all that much either and while I agree with a lot of what he said he doesn't get to decide what is or isn't cinema. People like that stuff. Not everything needs to be some artsy philosophical picture packed with high IQ subtext and metaphors lol

Seriously, I find a lot of those movies to be pretty generic crap but that doesn't make them not movies or even bad movies just because I think they're kind of bleh. Same applies to Scorsese. He isn't the god of cinema who gets to make the rules.

tag
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Meh, whatever.
Meaningless popcorn flicks are enjoyable, their own right.

Didn't think one way or another about it, really. Was I surprised to see an older artist that has lost most relevance with the most valued market in both cinema and criticism act bitter? No. Do I care what "cinema" means to him? No. Am I interested in any further MCU projects? No.
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NYT is fake news. Why would he want to write that in a fake newspaper? People would know the opposite is true.
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Which poll option do I choose for "I agree and MCU sucks"?
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To argue that amazing movies cannot be made under the constraints that he listed is short sighted and ignorant.

Yeah, we all knew Spider-Man would come back after what happened in Infinity War. That never stopped a lot of people from being emotionally impacted by that scene.
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BilalPowell posted...

NYT is fake news. Why would he want to write that in a fake newspaper? People would know the opposite is true.

You're not as stupid as you pretend to be online. But be careful; it'll get stuck like that.
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Stay mad, crybaby. Marvel movies are cinema, some of the most successful and globally revered of all time and no opining on the "good ol days" will negate that.

That entire op-ed is self serving tripe, meant to keep his name (and new movie) in the headlines and satiate his fanbase

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He's right
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https://twitter.com/Cormac_McCafe/status/1186473807944605701

this twitter thread is the only thing that needs to be said about the scorsese/marvel shit
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I don't think it's so deep you need an op-ed.

Marvel movies tend not to be "about" stuff. They may incorporate some elements ripped from the headlines, but ultimately they want you to talk about that cool thing Black Panther did and why your friends should go watch that, or how funny Tony Stark is, not the resolution to Wakanda's moral quandary or how we should approach oversight of the powerful and little-regulated forces in our society. It's escapism, mass appeal, Fordian construction of the generic conventions that have proven themselves profitable.

And to be clear I'm not saying "cinema" has to be dry or austere, check out the filmography of the Coen Brothers for example.
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I think the biggest argument against him is that Taika Waititi, James Gunn and Ryan Coogler were very much allowed to give their own vision and flavor over their own respective movies. They still feel like people who can provide the audience with something new despite working within the constraints of a franchise.

Peering outside of the Marvel genre you've also got Christopher Nolan with TDK Trilogy. I think he might be surprised with how much of that 'tension' is still there with these specific movies even if they aren't the majority.

I think we're starting to see people take the creative vision of a single person more seriously as of late. Jordan Peele is another example. I don't think it's as dire as he's making it out to be.
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This is dumb, like those literary critics who say Stephen King isn't literature. I don't care how elitist you are, you can't just go around claiming things aren't what they obviously are just because it's popular and not "deep" enough in your opinion.

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BeantownHero posted...

Stay mad, crybaby. Marvel movies are cinema, some of the most successful and globally revered of all time and no opining on the "good ol days" will negate that.

That entire op-ed is self serving tripe, meant to keep his name (and new movie) in the headlines and satiate his fanbase

wow really dude? Scorsese is right. And you defending MCU is the height of stupidity

@BeantownHero

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"Ok boomer"
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ssjevot posted...

This is dumb, like those literary critics who say Stephen King isn't literature. I don't care how elitist you are, you can't just go around claiming things aren't what they obviously are just because it's popular and not "deep" enough in your opinion.

And how exactly are you defining literature
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Hes right, but people would rather be outraged than actually read what he wrote.
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ssjevot posted...

This is dumb, like those literary critics who say Stephen King isn't literature. I don't care how elitist you are, you can't just go around claiming things aren't what they obviously are just because it's popular and not "deep" enough in your opinion.

Stephen King's novels have infinitely more depth than any MCU movie.
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WerewolfPaws posted...

Hes right, but people would rather be outraged than actually read what he wrote.

People who like McDonalds don't like being told that there's better food out there
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When did anyone ever claim that Marvel film were a paragon of cinematic excellence anyway?

Fuck him.
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konokonohamaru posted...

WerewolfPaws posted...

Hes right, but people would rather be outraged than actually read what he wrote.

People who like McDonalds don't like being told that there's better food out there

Thats a terrible analogy
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Its sad that nerds are so fragile that it even came to this. >_>

People literally saying stuff like Scorsese is jealous of MCU money and none of his movies are good because he doesnt like superhero flicks <_<
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WerewolfPaws posted...

Stephen King's novels have infinitely more depth than any MCU movie.

Never claimed they didn't. But he is often attacked by literary critics for writing pulp and not true literature.

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This story s old as dirt. Scorsese has been on record on this matter for what, a month or two now?
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AlisLandale posted...

Its sad that nerds are so fragile that it even came to this. >_>

People literally saying stuff like Scorsese is jealous of MCU money and none of his movies are good because he doesnt like superhero flicks <_<

Scorsese worked for scale when he made Silence (the movie also bombed horrifically, obviously, since it was a solemn 3 hour religious drama). He doesn't give a shit about money.

He does, however, have an intense passion for cinema.
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That last paragraph was a seriously depressing realization of what's to come under a Disney dominated film industry where literally everything is designed with checkboxes in mind.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

When did anyone ever claim that Marvel film were a paragon of cinematic excellence anyway?

Disney did try to push RDJ for Best Actor in the Academy Awards for Endgame earlier this year. This lead to people saying Endgame should be nominated for Best Picture too.

I'm pretty sure RDJ was the one who called it off.

I think Disney is trying to get their blockbuster movies into that space. With how much they own it could be a matter of time. Especially since the ratings for these award shows are going down.
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https://twitter.com/PeterKapow/status/1186142238075523073?s=19
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Questionmarktarius posted...

When did anyone ever claim that Marvel film were a paragon of cinematic excellence anyway?

Nobody did.

But Scorsese was asked in an interview about his opinion of the MCU and he gave his opinion, and nerds absolutely lost it. >_>
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Back peddling and bitter he had to make a Netflix movie
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GhettoFlip posted...

wow really dude? Scorsese is right. And you defending MCU is the height of stupidity

@BeantownHero

Hes objectively wrong and quite frankly, a whiny brat about the whole thing

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Didn't he work on the Joker movie, does he know what a hypocrite is?
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008Zulu posted...

Didn't he work on the Joker movie, does he know what a hypocrite is?

He was going to but didn't.
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if 2 out of a group of 3 judges say marvel is cinema, millions of movie goers will own a pair of new sunglasses

this is an ideological battle
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ssjevot posted...

WerewolfPaws posted...

Stephen King's novels have infinitely more depth than any MCU movie.

Never claimed they didn't. But he is often attacked by literary critics for writing pulp and not true literature.

He does write pulp and freely admits it. In fact, King has called his own writing fast food as well. He knows what he does. I'd argue that isn't a case against it being literature.

That said, I got a degree in lit, have taught it in both high school and college and been an editor for years and have yet to find anyone who can tell me the difference between "just" fiction and literature without shoveling a truckload of shit.
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DeadSite posted...

Old man tries to virally advertise movie he had to soullessly sell to Netflix because he doesn't understand economics

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008Zulu posted...

Didn't he work on the Joker movie, does he know what a hypocrite is?

I think he was given a producer credit, presumably because Joker borrows heavily from Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy. I assume they're just giving him paycheck so that they don't have to buy the rights to the movies without being sued for plagiarizing.

Pure speculation on my part, of course. but he was attached as a producer early on before later having the title in name only.
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vigorm0rtis posted...

That said, I got a degree in lit, have taught it in both high school and college and been an editor for years and have yet to find anyone who can tell me the difference between "just" fiction and literature without shoveling a truckload of shit.

That's kind of my point I guess.

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Its a high concept argument like trying to define art or music which often boils down to personal preference about something or another rather than concrete unalienable facts about a medium. Its a fun thing to wax philosophical about, but ultimately thats really all it is

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ssjevot posted...

vigorm0rtis posted...

That said, I got a degree in lit, have taught it in both high school and college and been an editor for years and have yet to find anyone who can tell me the difference between "just" fiction and literature without shoveling a truckload of shit.

That's kind of my point I guess.

I tend to agree, although I'll tell anyone who will listen that Dan Brown and James Patterson have never written a word of lit in their whole lives-- but wouldn't write an OP-ed trying to explain why.
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ultimate reaver posted...

Its a high concept argument like trying to define art or music which often boils down to personal preference about something or another rather than concrete unalienable facts about a medium. Its a fun thing to wax philosophical about, but ultimately thats really all it is

Makes sense an old senile boomer like Scorsese muses about these nonsensical ideas
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DeadSite posted...

Makes sense an old senile boomer like Scorsese muses about these nonsensical ideas

Nah its a huge hobby for younger snobby people on the internet

im sure his arguments are well founded going by his criteria (I am not interested enough to read it in full) because hes a genius director, but at the end of the day that kind of argument has to work around a framework that is set by someone to even begin. Its just too much of broad ephemeral subject

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vigorm0rtis posted...

ssjevot posted...

WerewolfPaws posted...

Stephen King's novels have infinitely more depth than any MCU movie.

Never claimed they didn't. But he is often attacked by literary critics for writing pulp and not true literature.

He does write pulp and freely admits it. In fact, King has called his own writing fast food as well. He knows what he does. I'd argue that isn't a case against it being literature.

That said, I got a degree in lit, have taught it in both high school and college and been an editor for years and have yet to find anyone who can tell me the difference between "just" fiction and literature without shoveling a truckload of shit.

you have never been given a good account of the difference between fiction and literature?
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in five years it will likely require less effort on my part to watch any of four different spiderman franchises than any movie made before 1980
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