Current Events > I don't get why in RPG makers the default stat-growth isn't

(+) Yeah! (+)

Dependent upon class, and carries over upon class change. Like to me that's a standard JRPG type thing. I just think it's so strange that, for example, XP by default has stat gains dependent upon character and MV has stats entirely change upon class change.

Like that seems completely unconventional and strange to me.

Never was a fan of class = new stat growth pattern.
---

I hated this shit in FFTA.

Marche was garbo because of it unless you instantly turned him into a thief and even then he wasnt great.
---

stat growths shouldn't lock you into a path

I think this is like, what a default JRPG IS though -- even if yous guys aren't fans

I'm a fan of the way three houses does it. Characters have bases and the classes augment them. Gives both individuality and customization IMO

---

For what it's worth, that's how it works in RPG Maker Fes.
---

Musourenka posted...

For what it's worth, that's how it works in RPG Maker Fes.

I'd never heard of this one, but it looks surprisingly good for a console rpg maker.
I forgot, too, that the PSX RPG Maker worked the way I mentioned

bobbaaay posted...

Musourenka posted...

For what it's worth, that's how it works in RPG Maker Fes.

I'd never heard of this one, but it looks surprisingly good for a console rpg maker.
I forgot, too, that the PSX RPG Maker worked the way I mentioned

It's not bad for something on the go. Note that the RPG Maker Player is free so you can try out people's creations. It can give you an idea of what is possible with the creator.
---

Classes changing growths is horrible just cause of how it limits you. Classes should be modifiers to the base stats.

---

Not much more limiting than the character's own stat growth.
---

One of my favorite stat systems was in final fantasy legends for the game boy init if you used strength weapons you could build strength points. If you used magic it built int, etc.
---

Why would it make more sense for stat ups to be based on class instead of character? People are generally born a certain way and grow that way, whilst you can make some changes by training yourself, it is pretty rare to master something your body isn't built for.
---

At the very least, it makes it a lot easier on the game creation side. You can easily switch out classes or make different versions of a class with different stat growths (one for each character), but it's a lot harder if the growth is based on the character.
---

My least favorite thing about RPGs is adaptive/customizable growth, just because I always manage to screw it up.

I'm much more a fan of the ones with a strict system where level X = these certain stats.

---

hitokoriX posted...

I'm a fan of the way three houses does it. Characters have bases and the classes augment them. Gives both individuality and customization IMO

This is how every Fire Emblem game since Shadow Dragon has done it, and I agree that it's a great system. Each character has growths that make them a better fit for certain types of classes, but they're not completely useless if you want to try using them as something else.
---

Musourenka posted...

Not much more limiting than the character's own stat growth.

It is more limiting because of the initial classes have bad growths you will want to avoid leveling to not waste level ups and experimenting with different classes punishes you. While if the growths are based on the character instead you can freely try out the other classes and can level how ever you want without being punished.

---

uwnim posted...

Musourenka posted...

Not much more limiting than the character's own stat growth.

It is more limiting because of the initial classes have bad growths you will want to avoid leveling to not waste level ups and experimenting with different classes punishes you. While if the growths are based on the character instead you can freely try out the other classes and can level how ever you want without being punished.

Having growths based on the character and the idea of not wanting to "waste level-ups" while trying new things is better for the new players playing the game for the first time. You're right that it allows for more experimenting to see what works or doesn't work. However, in the end, fewer character/class combinations are truly viable because sometimes a character's growths are the opposite of what they need to succeed in a certain class.

Having growths based on the classes (or a combination of both character and class like Fire Emblem does) allows for more different character/class combinations to be viable in the end, which helps more experienced players who know the end goal of what they want to build. This also helps a game's replay value, because you can try more different combinations across multiple playthroughs without any of them being completely unviable.

I prefer the class-based way of doing it (the Fire Emblem "combination of both factors" option is the best overall though) but both growth systems can work well if the game is built right around them. They each have their benefits and weak points that certain players will like and others won't.
---

uwnim posted...

Musourenka posted...

Not much more limiting than the character's own stat growth.

It is more limiting because of the initial classes have bad growths you will want to avoid leveling to not waste level ups and experimenting with different classes punishes you. While if the growths are based on the character instead you can freely try out the other classes and can level how ever you want without being punished.

That is one issue with class-based levels if not done correctly (might want to keep growth between classes fairly even to avoid this), though the advantage is that you can specialize if you know what you're doing.

Though a character's base stat growth can completely lock out them out of certain class viability. What if the character has low MP and Magic strength? They'll never be a good mage no matter how strong the Wizard class modifiers are. That's limiting in its own way.
---

LightHawKnight posted...

Why would it make more sense for stat ups to be based on class instead of character? People are generally born a certain way and grow that way, whilst you can make some changes by training yourself, it is pretty rare to master something your body isn't built for.

It makes more sense because it encourages actual customization

I know that class based stat gains or random stat gains encourage min-maxing, but they also encourage replayability and customization. I know in a lot of cases it's really easy-peasy, super obvious min-maxing (like leveling everyone up as a ninja in Tactics Ogre to maximize the AGI/WT stats) and in MOST games it's always preferential to maximize whatever stat increases your damage output (whether it's strength or magic, or whatever).

Min-maxing is exactly what drove me nuts and encouraged me to play tabletop over digital. Partially because I felt "locked out" of certain builds due to the inefficiency of certain builds leading to a progress wall.

But it IS possible to create systems where level-ups aren't "wasted" and there's a better balance between classes. Maybe lock some of the better abilities behind shittier classes to either necessitate or encourage the sub-optimal stat growths. Some games offer permanent stat gains for "mastering" classes. Maybe make it so certain abilities are only usable while you're a certain class? Make sure all classes have some sort of major benefit, whether it's a super useful buff or debuff or whatever?

I just think games with static stat gains, or stat gains dependent upon character are totally dull and have zero replay value. There's also not the same excitement of seeing how high your stats can get, or getting a really good stat roll in a game with randomly generated ranges for stat gains.

EDIT: I'll also add that there's one thing I LOVE about RPG Maker XP with its skills -- and that's that they can be dependent upon multiple stats. To me, if you were good at writing the skill values you could totally add more value to underutilized stats like DEX. You could make moves where DEX matters as much as STR, or moves where all the damage is based on your AGI, etc.