Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 248: a Perfect impeachment hearing

(+) Yeah! (+)

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

If this is the purpose of government, why do they owe humane deportations at all? They could just execute illegal immigrants to assert maximum legitimacy, after all.

Image and legitimacy. I already stated this. This likely actually did use to happen in the past I would assume if someone wished to in some nations, maybe even here.

The fact is with the relations between nations, the rise of transparency through the world wide web, and such that for a government to maintain legitimacy and ultimately protect it's citizens, it needs to do so in a humane way that can be seen as fair.

I am not saying they should be killing people at the border or such. But, while that on PAPER might seem like the most logical solution to STOP illegal immigration. It is actually the WORST option. Not from an ethical standpoint (obviously ethically it is God damn appalling) but from a government maintaining power perspective.

Legitimacy isn't maintained through the outside world but your citizens.

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Corrik7 posted...

This likely actually did use to happen in the past I would assume if someone wished to in some nations, maybe even here.

Nah here we just slaughtered the natives
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why does this happen
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Corrik7 posted...

I am not saying they should be killing people at the border or such. But, while that on PAPER might seem like the most logical solution to STOP illegal immigration. It is actually the WORST option. Not from an ethical standpoint (obviously ethically it is God damn appalling) but from a government maintaining power perspective.

Legitimacy isn't maintained through the outside world but your citizens.

What if the majority of the citizens started supporting killing people at the border
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Grimlyn posted...

why does this happen

for my part i started digging around reading a ton of court decisions for like an hour and a half (think the trap of wikipedia or tvtropes) and i'd be damned if i was just going to have it be for nothing so i had to make another post

Then I was just legit discussing the legal situation as I understood it with others here.

the rest of this i don't know
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Jakyl25 posted...

Nah here we just slaughtered the natives

Past the jokes, it has definitely happened. Whether it happened in America I don't know. But, doing so would cause a revolt. Unless America wishes to retain political agency via fear and power over the populace, I would soundly say protecting the border with armed force when not necessary isn't a very stellar idea.

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Jakyl25 posted...

What if the majority of the citizens started supporting killing people at the border

The question is what if a majority of citizens would revolt if we didn't. That's when it gets interesting.

Supporting something and willing to revolt over something are very different entitities.

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Grimlyn posted...

why does this happen

People dont understand Dunning-Kruger and keep trying to convince someone to improve

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Corrik7 posted...

What are you implying, Chris? I assure you like a responsible American I paid all debts I owed and am able to keep a job to have health insurance and afford the things I need in life.

Bernie isn't a terrible choice for Democrats. I would have voted for him over Trump last election, but you seem to be implying something.

Bernie helps everyone is my point tbh

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Jakyl25 posted...

Also Im having a hard time reconciling this with your opinion of Elizabeth Warren as some crazy person

Bernie is less crazy than Warren btw. Her m4a plan is dumb

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Bernie helps everyone is my point tbh

Does Bernie help those that help themselves already though?

That is what concerns me about Bernie. I think free college subsidized in ways to those who merit college can make much sense. I agree maybe we can do something with loans and forgiving those who were less than responsible. I can agree with universal health care and so on.

But, what I question is. How is Bernie going to improve things for Middle Class Americans who already slave away to accomplish these things on their own? To those who were responsible and did provide for themselves? What is Bernie gonna do to help those who arguably have more earned a little their way?

Does he have a plan that helps there?

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if we want to talk about the primary again (i don't know if i do) i can say for my part i am back in the phase of angst that warren and sanders will lff each other and let biden win

with the current form being the nightmare scenario of buttigieg winning iowa and then going nowhere because seriously check his coalition lol but effectively limits the amount of momentum warren or sanders could get from such a win so biden's support doesn't erode fast enough and he wins sc and super tuesday big and augh i'm sad again
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Bernie is less crazy than Warren btw. Her m4a plan is dumb

Warren and Gillebrand are the worst candidates on the Left I think. Up there with Williamson.

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Grimlyn posted...

why does this happen

I mean to be fair this hasn't gone on nearly as long as so many more of these arguments.

Jakyl once again chiming in with one of his "anti-government in all things" rants really doesn't help my hope that one day Corrik will realize that people trying to refute his actual misconceptions is not the same thing as an extreme political stance counter to his own.
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Gillibrand left the race nearly three months ago.

jeez there are like 3734 candidates how do you name one of the few who left
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xp1337 posted...

Gillibrand left the race nearly three months ago.

jeez there are like 3734 candidates how do you name one of the few who left

I was including all the options, here and then. Pretty sure I was the one who first reported it!

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kevwaffles posted...

Jakyl once again chiming in with one of his "anti-government in all things" rants

Hey Im not anti-government!

Im just anti-allegiance
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Jakyl25 posted...

Hey Im not anti-government!

Im just anti-allegiance

You are the reason why I was so far off on having 100% on all Democrats supporting their country in that quiz.

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Also not a Democrat
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xp1337 posted...

if we want to talk about the primary again (i don't know if i do) i can say for my part i am back in the phase of angst that warren and sanders will lff each other and let biden win

with the current form being the nightmare scenario of buttigieg winning iowa and then going nowhere because seriously check his coalition lol but effectively limits the amount of momentum warren or sanders could get from such a win so biden's support doesn't erode fast enough and he wins sc and super tuesday big and augh i'm sad again

yeah buttigeig and biden should both go away

FWIW, I don't think Warren dropping would help Bernie that much because her coalition is really spread out ideologically and it would also boost Buttigieg and maybe Biden. And I don't really want Bernie to drop out unless that is the only way to guarantee one of Bernie or Warren wins. So. Shit sucks?

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Corrik7 posted...

Does Bernie help those that help themselves already though?

That is what concerns me about Bernie. I think free college subsidized in ways to those who merit college can make much sense. I agree maybe we can do something with loans and forgiving those who were less than responsible. I can agree with universal health care and so on.

But, what I question is. How is Bernie going to improve things for Middle Class Americans who already slave away to accomplish these things on their own? To those who were responsible and did provide for themselves? What is Bernie gonna do to help those who arguably have more earned a little their way?

Does he have a plan that helps there?

M4A is going to save the average middle class family 1000s a year. No dollars before 30k are taxed which is pretty nice.

College debt relief only helps economic fluidity over time which benefits everyone long term. Affordable college also benefits everyone as a smarter populace tends to be a safer one as well.

Really Bernie's plans just help.

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Corrik, Jakyl may stay fairly grounded in not letting his views color his interpretation of facts, but his actual views are possibly more extreme than anyone's in these topics. Like I say I'm not a Democrat to you quite often, and I'm not, but it's probably more accurate to call me a Democrat than him.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Affordable college also benefits everyone as a smarter populace tends to be a safer one as well.

I think that the free college idea should be based on merit academically. Some people should go to trade schools, not college.

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There is room for nuance in everything, true. That's the type of compromise I am highly interested in.

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kevwaffles posted...

Corrik, Jakyl may stay fairly grounded in not letting his views color his interpretation of facts, but his actual views are possibly more extreme than anyone's in these topics. Like I say I'm not a Democrat to you quite often, and I'm not, but it's probably more accurate to call me a Democrat than him.

I feel as far as the quiz you both would more equate with Democrats. You could say you are independents, but you clearly swing towards a party on the spectrum.

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Corrik7 posted...

I think that the free college idea should be based on merit academically. Some people should go to trade schools, not college.

I mean you'd still have to pass admissions. It's just that the colleges are free.

And good news: trade schools are also free.

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https://i.redd.it/ah2kqt3kpvv31.png

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Corrik7 posted...

kevwaffles posted...

Corrik, Jakyl may stay fairly grounded in not letting his views color his interpretation of facts, but his actual views are possibly more extreme than anyone's in these topics. Like I say I'm not a Democrat to you quite often, and I'm not, but it's probably more accurate to call me a Democrat than him.

I feel as far as the quiz you both would more equate with Democrats. You could say you are independents, but you clearly swing towards a party on the spectrum.

Im independent in the sense that I am much farther left than the Democrats

Of course that means Im closer to the Democrats than I am to the Republicans

Dems and GOP are not the far ends of the spectrum with independent in between
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So for prosecutorial discretion, I bet a lot of people would be singing a different tune if Trump orders the IRS to stop enforcing the tax laws on people making over $10 million a year. If you're rich, you pay no taxes at all. Because the president decrees it as an "enforcement policy."
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red sox 777 posted...

year. If you're rich, you pay no taxes at all.

Isnt that how it is already
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I mean you'd still have to pass admissions. It's just that the colleges are free.

And good news: trade schools are also free.

And, I am proposing the system change. That say the top whatever % can go to college free. The rest can go to trades/ apprenticeships. Or they can choose to pay for college themselves to go to college despite not meeting the merit level.

Basically, I wouldn't mind a Japan system applied to our colleges like they do for high school. You earn your way to college through your scores or you don't get to the next level, at least on the government's dime


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Corrik take a look at this chart

https://i.imgur.com/tWH8hq4.png

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

https://i.redd.it/ah2kqt3kpvv31.png

what exactly is the point supposed to be here

Manchin's constituents aren't "WV Democrats" it's "WV residents." He's representing the entire state not just democratic primary voters.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Corrik take a look at this chart

https://i.imgur.com/tWH8hq4.png

So like 2 grand. More than I pay now, but not drastically. Assuming this is no deductible free health care and dental, that wouldn't be bad.

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Corrik7 posted...

kevwaffles posted...

Corrik, Jakyl may stay fairly grounded in not letting his views color his interpretation of facts, but his actual views are possibly more extreme than anyone's in these topics. Like I say I'm not a Democrat to you quite often, and I'm not, but it's probably more accurate to call me a Democrat than him.

I feel as far as the quiz you both would more equate with Democrats. You could say you are independents, but you clearly swing towards a party on the spectrum.

Independent isn't a point of view. Technically neither is Democrat or Republican, but at least you can attribute certain points of view to them.

Independent basically just means you aren't literally registered to a party, which means most of us here are technically independent, but it really has no meaning in describing one's views.

When I say I'm not a Democrat to you, I'm accounting for your interpretation that aligning views means you're that regardless of what you want. You just interpret the fact that I disagree with you on a lot means I'm a Democrat, when I rarely ever argue for things being the way I actually want them to be.
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xp1337 posted...

what exactly is the point supposed to be here

Manchin's constituents aren't "WV Democrats" it's "WV residents." He's representing the entire state not just democratic primary voters.

I forgot all the Republicans that voted him into office.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

xp1337 posted...

what exactly is the point supposed to be here

Manchin's constituents aren't "WV Democrats" it's "WV residents." He's representing the entire state not just democratic primary voters.

I forgot all the Republicans that voted him into office.

By this logic I assume you would similarly endorse Trump's apparent decision to only give a damn about representing his base rather than the whole country?

I mean, you're the one who posted an image of a twitter post with a clear-cut factual error with no commentary! Should we let that go unchallenged? Sanders is my #2 choice in this primary I damn well know there's better arguments to be made than whatever that twitter user was trying to say!
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Encouraged* patriotism is something that's appalling to me and I honestly wish this was not the norm in most countries of the world.

*I'm sure there's a better word for this but I can't think of one off the top of my head. Basically I'm trying to say that I think individuals expressing patriotism is fine, but I don't like the idea of individuals and especially institutions or governments trying to push patriotic ideals on others.
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xp1337 posted...

By this logic I assume you would similarly endorse Trump's apparent decision to only give a damn about representing his base rather than the whole country?

I mean, you're the one who posted an image of a twitter post with a clear-cut factual error with no commentary! Should we let that go unchallenged? Sanders is my #2 choice in this primary I damn well know there's better arguments to be made than whatever that twitter user was trying to say!

And what do you have to offer his WV Republican friends prefer someone to Bernie for 2020?

Also there is nothing wrong with pointing out Manchin sucks

Also Trump does what he wants regardless so yeah.

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pyresword posted...

Encouraged* patriotism is something that's appalling to me and I honestly wish this was not the norm in most countries of the world.

*I'm sure there's a better word for this but I can't think of one off the top of my head. Basically I'm trying to say that I think individuals expressing patriotism is fine, but I don't like the idea of individuals and especially institutions or governments trying to push patriotic ideals on others.

Everyone should be pushed and instilled with patriotism from a very young age.

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But if you genuinely forget about all the Republicans that got Manchin elected, I'll lend a hand.

By your post we got Sanders beating Clinton 51-36. In raw votes we got 124k-86k roughly.

In the general we have Trump beating Clinton 68.5-26.4. Raw vote 489k-189k.

In the 2018 midterms we have Manchin winning 49.6-46.2. Raw vote 291k-271k.

Let's be generous and give 2018 Manchin 100% of the 2016 general Clinton raw vote despite midterm turnout and all that. That leaves 102,000 votes he got from somewhere. That's close by itself to Sanders's vote total in the primary! Hell, Iet's deduct the 5.1% "other" vote from the 2016 general from that 102k too just in case, still left with 67,500 voters.

Add those to the Clinton voters in the primary and Sanders would be losing by 30,000 votes in that primary.

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(If the point was supposed to be that WV is secretly some bastion of socialism just waiting to rise up when the time is right, it's not a great point. You could add Clinton's primary raw vote, her general raw vote, and Sanders's primary vote all together as if they were all somehow unique voters who never overlapped and you have... 500,000 voters. Trump got 489,000 in the general alone.)
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Corrik7 posted...

pyresword posted...

Encouraged* patriotism is something that's appalling to me and I honestly wish this was not the norm in most countries of the world.

*I'm sure there's a better word for this but I can't think of one off the top of my head. Basically I'm trying to say that I think individuals expressing patriotism is fine, but I don't like the idea of individuals and especially institutions or governments trying to push patriotic ideals on others.

Everyone should be pushed and instilled with patriotism from a very young age.

alright, it's time to stop talking to corrik
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like there are plenty of ways to support sanders and argue his case

i just feel like that image is like... not only terrible at it but just factually wrong. if it was only the first whatever i probably wouldn't care and just wouldn't comment. but you throw in the second? we can do better.
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NFUN posted...

alright, it's time to stop talking to corrik

Sorry you don't love and support your country. Kinda shameful. Then again, you are probably someone who supports disrespecting the flag during anthems and such.

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xp1337 posted...

But if you genuinely forget about all the Republicans that got Manchin elected, I'll lend a hand.

By your post we got Sanders beating Clinton 51-36. In raw votes we got 124k-86k roughly.

In the general we have Trump beating Clinton 68.5-26.4. Raw vote 489k-189k.

In the 2018 midterms we have Manchin winning 49.6-46.2. Raw vote 291k-271k.

Let's be generous and give 2018 Manchin 100% of the 2016 general Clinton raw vote despite midterm turnout and all that. That leaves 102,000 votes he got from somewhere. That's close by itself to Sanders's vote total in the primary! Hell, Iet's deduct the 5.1% "other" vote from the 2016 general from that 102k too just in case, still left with 67,500 voters.

Add those to the Clinton voters in the primary and Sanders would be losing by 30,000 votes in that primary.

~~~

(If the point was supposed to be that WV is secretly some bastion of socialism just waiting to rise up when the time is right, it's not a great point. You could add Clinton's primary raw vote, her general raw vote, and Sanders's primary vote all together as if they were all somehow unique voters who never overlapped and you have... 500,000 voters. Trump got 489,000 in the general alone.)

West Virginia isn't voting democratic if that's what he was going for. Trump is Coal. West Virginia is Coal. Can already add it to the R for 2020 no matter the D candidate.

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trump won wv by 42 points no kidding it's not winnable only wyoming was more lopsided
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I don't genuinely forget Republicans i just think Manchin is bad tbh. I also casually post off the cuff a lot.

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