Board 8 > Best All-Purpose Wrestling Topic of the Decade, Part 492

(+) Yeah! (+)

but actually everyone should watch uncharted territory it's been on average my favourite show this season
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This restraining order thing makes me so irrationally annoyed.

Even the dumbest WWE fan has to know this is so much nonsense.
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It's the same fanbase that thinks the greatest thing going right now is a guy who wears a clown mask that gives him Supernatural powers.
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well that part is true it is the greatest thing

they just need to tone down the red lights during matches
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unless it's to have the person who defeats him find a way to overpower the red lights and return them to normal
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You know who does that?

Taker.
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but they feed off the same dark energy

I liked the suggestion from last week of DBD fully embracing YES again will cause a disruption in the lights.
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If only Glacier would come to WWE his blue lights would cancel the red lights

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The point is the red light literally gives me migraines and I can't watch his matches anymore.
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Lopen posted...

If only Glacier would come to WWE his blue lights would cancel the red lights

No they'd form purple lights, summoning the Velveteen Dream.
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It'll be a returning Sheamus who has mastered the ability of reflecting and amplifying light shone direct onto his body
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TheRock1525 posted...

It's the same fanbase that thinks the greatest thing going right now is a guy who wears a clown mask that gives him Supernatural powers.

To be fair, I dont think the mask GIVES him the powers. He already has them. The mask is just to create a fearful image.
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Although that would be hilarious if they said it did

Then like Bryan knees it off of him and then Miz puts it on and becomes The Fiend
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Also jeez, in hindsight wouldnt it have made so much more sense for the Fiend to destroy the red Universal Title, replace it with his horror version, and then after someone else wins it they introduce the new one?

This is the second time theyve screwed this up. They did it before too when Punk stole the spinner belt from The Rock, then Rock beat him again, took it back, and THEN introduced the new design. He should have just came out at Elimination Chamber with the new design to counter Punks power play of stealing the spinner version
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Nothing is wrong with the Fiend, when you consider it combines Taker, Kane, and Mankind's darker things, with the added benefit of an extra character that "can" cut promos normally or work social media. Of course, there's always the issue of suspension of disbelief that is almost impossible in today's wrestling culture. But, when almost no other character other than "fighting tough guy" exists in WWE, Bray/The Fiend stands out (like he did even in Swamp Jesus" form years ago). The issue now seems to be WWE allowed him to actually...WIN *gasp* when the fans had enough of their bullshit.

Is it perfect? No, but WWE is at such a low bar, the Fiend sounds like the best thing because everything else IS so bad. I doubt The Fiend would be champion without the brand split and Lesnar being scurried off to Raw obscurity, but whatever.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Lopen posted...

If only Glacier would come to WWE his blue lights would cancel the red lights

No they'd form purple lights, summoning the Velveteen Dream.

There is nothing wrong with this in the least

WWE, sign Glacier.

And then Velveteen comes out in Fiend themed tights and Fiend loses power because he doesn't know how to react.
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Trying to compare Fiend to Undertaker or Kane (Mankind isn't really even similar at all) is kinda missing the core issue with the character, because the issue isn't really the supernatural element or whatever.

It's the internal inconsistency. Bray Wyatt was frankly kind of a goober. Meanwhile The Fiend can take 48 finishers and no sell them all. The only real explanation given is that Bray Wyatt puts a mask on now. It'd be like if Kane was acknowledged as Fake Diesel with a mask on rather than a complete repackage.

It's kinda like why people hated on Lord Tensai but like, way worse, because at least Tensai was actually gone from WWE for like 10 years and in theory could have gotten better, and his power levels didn't go from "midcarder" to "unkillable death machine."

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They hated on Tensai because "Japanese based gimmick in American show", and the whole, "Goes from wrecking Alex Riley to CM Punk in one week..."

Yeah no. They Jinder'd Tensai, which is different from the Fiend. They gave the Fiend MONTHS of time to build the character. I think fans can buy Wyatt as a top guy. They wanted to the first time. WWE just never wanted to, and still might not. The worst part is the idea that "When is WWE going to fuck it up?" is the default, not, "Oh hey,, they have something now. That's cool."

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I have watched very inconsistently, so maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the implication was that Bray was held back by certain things, like trying to be a good guy in the Funhouse version, or trying to appeal to the "Fireflies" as Wyatt Family Wyatt, and so on, and so putting on the mask is symbolic of him just letting everything go and not caring what happens to him or anyone else in the process.

Which isn't a great explanation but is better than nothing.
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Tensai was not Jindered. Jinder was a loser that inexplicably became a winner.

Tensai was a debut that ascended really fast, that's all. The issue was that he was treated as a different entity from A-Train, right down to not speaking English, which was impossible to believe because people knew he could speak English.

It's basically the same thing as The Fiend. I'm not saying people can't buy The Fiend as a world champion-- I'm saying that the people who think it's stupid as hell can't buy him as a dude who can tank hand grenades with no reason given.

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I think there's a fairly big difference between Fiend and Tensai in that Fiend is being given Hollywood Split Personality powers, whereas Tensai was literally supposed to be the same guy as a different entity all together.

Like, we see shit like Fiend in movies like Split and stuff.

Tensai was literally "We swear he's not A-Train. He's Tensai."
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ninkendo posted...

but they feed off the same dark energy

I liked the suggestion from last week of DBD fully embracing YES again will cause a disruption in the lights.

Every week Shines factual repetition of what happened makes me glad I didn't watch

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That didn't happen in a show it was either in one of these chats or a different one where I saw someone mention it as a possibility
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I think Tensai was easily fixed by just acknowledging hey it's the same guy but he got better. That being said the fact that it was A-Train was not really outright denied as much as hand waved. He was acknowledged as "a guy who used to work here and went to Japan" with the A-Train/Albert name not ever being acknowledged

But the point is that the lack of real reason given for how he transformed from A-Train to Tensai was the main problem with the character more than anything. Fiend has the same problem-- you can say there are things that are "implied" but that's giving an awful lot of slack to WWE's storytelling that it frankly hasn't earned. Figure the current WWE fanbase just has a lot of Bray Wyatt sympathizers is the main reason there's significantly less backlash on the Fiend than Tensai-- people who'll take any dumbass explanation or lack thereof as long as it means Bray is finally getting pushed.

Anyway Tensai tangent aside the main point is it's not like Undertaker or Kane at all. And I stand by that. Nothing wrong with a supernatural gimmick-- the problem is it's a supernatural gimmick that spawns from a midcarder who was nowhere near that power level. Fake Diesel who puts on a Kane mask, is still acknowledged as Diesel, but becomes super powerful as Kane, would be the Kane version. I'm not sure there is an Undertaker version because he was always fairly consistent-- even as American Badass he was a tough sob.

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But also the look of the fiend is cool

I don't think anyone ever thought tensai looked cool
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I just think Fiend is easier to digest because it's a trope that happens outside of WWE, so people have most likely already seen it somewhere and have internalized it as "fine."

Nothing made sense for why A-Train forgot how to speak english.
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Sentient back hair gave him the ability to speak extra languages was the implication

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I think my argument would be that if you're willing to accept all the other supernatural stuff, like Kane being from hell and summoning fire, and Undertaker being immortal, and so on, then there's no real reason not to accept "Bray Wyatt's alternate personalities have different power levels" since it's not anything new or bizarre. That kind of thing has been in movies, comics, video games, and so on for long before this, so it just seems kinda weird to be picky and choosy about what supernatural stuff you want to accept if Undertaker and Kane are okay but Fiend is not.
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Lopen posted...

Sentient back hair gave him the ability to speak extra languages was the implication

I'd have liked Tensai if he ran with sentient back hair!
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He didn't have any back hair at the time!
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Maybe the hair migrated to form the Japanese lettering on his head
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The difference is Undertaker and Kane were consistently supernatural since debut. If anything they're more like the multiple personality thing you're describing because Corporate Kane and American Badass Undertaker were slightly less credible than the dark counterparts (but the gulf was way less than with Bray vs Fiend).

Bray Wyatt was a loser and then they needed to give him an excuse to win and so they made a dumb mask thing.

It's not like Split. It's like Split if The Beast doesn't debut until Glass because they wanted to arbitrarily buff him so he could credibly fight Bruce Willis.

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TheRock1525 posted...

He didn't have any back hair at the time!

He shaved off the sentient back hair which gave him the ability to speak English as A-Train

See this is why no one understood the storyline.

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Bray Wyatt was teleporting almost immediately after his debut. Which was part of Vince not understanding the character.
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Lopen posted...

Bray Wyatt was a loser and then they needed to give him an excuse to win and so they made a dumb mask thing.

It's not like Split. It's like Split if The Beast doesn't debut until Glass because they wanted to arbitrarily buff him so he could credibly fight Bruce Willis.

I mean actually it sounds exactly like Split when you describe it that way, since Kevin was a loser and only developed all of the other personalities as defense mechanisms over his life, eventually resulting in the last personality (The Beast) being supernatural, and taking hold when he was most susceptible to being overcome by the other personalities.

EDIT: Like, The Beast is basically a possession that the other personalities warn of, which is exactly how the early Funhouse Bray character was and it's still mostly treated that way.
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I'm not saying Bray Wyatt has never had supernatural elements before the Fiend. I'm saying the Fiend is grossly inconsistent with his established power levels and has never been hinted at before.

Anyway if you don't have a problem with the gimmick that's fine-- I'm just explaining at least part of the reason as to why some people do, even if we are a minority among WWE viewers at the moment. I mean there may also be some that say "all supernatural stuff bad" but I feel like those are an even smaller minority because frankly if you never wanted any of that you wouldn't be watching WWE to begin with because that kinda stuff has existed there in gratuity since the 80s.

And now that I think of it Jinder Mahal was brought up and he probably is a better analog than Tensai in a lot of ways. Dude who was established gets a freaking huge power spike for not much reason at all. Main difference is Bray Wyatt has a lot more talent.

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HashtagSEP posted...

I mean actually it sounds exactly like Split when you describe it that way, since Kevin was a loser and only developed all of the other personalities as defense mechanisms over his life, eventually resulting in the last personality (The Beast) being supernatural, and taking hold when he was most susceptible to being overcome by the other personalities.

I wasn't aware Bray Wyatt had a lifetime of multiple personalities being developed on WWE programming

In fact I'm pretty sure he's only ever had one alternate personality and it was the super overpowered one

Wait is Husky Harris a multiple personality too

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We're using Kane as a counter example to consistent power levels, really? The guy who was so invincible three tombstones barely even stopped him at first, then arbitrarily got weaker and weaker until he was pretty much a joke until the day his mask came off, at which point he was the invincible god of invincibility...until he needed to get in the ring with relevant people, at which point he became just an upper midcarder, then proceeded to stay between "pretty good but not great" and "joke" for years after, except for the few times where they needed a monster heel so he'd become god for a month or two again then promptly become a joke right after?

At least WWE have been consistent thus far with Bray in that whatever normal Bray Wyatt might be (there's no indication that he's anything special even now!), the Fiend is actually consistently super strong and nigh-invulnerable. Kane used to shift between almost as strong as the Fiend to as weak as Bray at his worst in the span of a month or two. Dude literally got a massive anime powerup out of the removal of his mask just making him angry, not even any sort of connection to his supernatural origins (which were pretty much dead and buried at this point anyway, except for the random times over the years when they'd come back...)
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When it comes to characterization. Fiend is basically WWE's almost 1:1 take on The Beast, just written a bit shittier because it's WWE.

The problem is that whereas Split is two hours long and you don't see the thirty or whatever years of Kevin's life being a loser leading up to The Beast, we DID see Bray Wyatt being a loser.

I just feel that if you're going to accept supernatural crap like Undertaker being immortal, I don't see any issue in accepting supernatural crap like "Wyatt's 'The Fiend' personality is a supernatural possession."
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Lopen posted...

I'm not saying Bray Wyatt has never had supernatural elements before the Fiend. I'm saying the Fiend is grossly inconsistent with his established power levels and has never been hinted at before.

They spent like six months on segments building up Bray's sudden new personality slowly hijacking him before the Fiend actually had a match. By wrestling standards where people are best friends for years, then one of them looks at each funny one week and the next, BAM! Always hated that guy and "you people", this is the most hinted at thing ever <_<
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Lopen posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

I mean actually it sounds exactly like Split when you describe it that way, since Kevin was a loser and only developed all of the other personalities as defense mechanisms over his life, eventually resulting in the last personality (The Beast) being supernatural, and taking hold when he was most susceptible to being overcome by the other personalities.

I wasn't aware Bray Wyatt had a lifetime of multiple personalities being developed on WWE programming

In fact I'm pretty sure he's only ever had one alternate personality and it was the super overpowered one

Wait is Husky Harris a multiple personality too

To be fair, it might be since Huskus exists in the Funhouse!

Also, Funhouse Bray clearly is meant to be a different personality than Swamp Family Bray, which is portrayed either as the original, or as a personality that is "dead," given the Xs over his pictures and the head on the lantern.
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I guess I have less of a problem accepting Kane gradually declining to weaker because that happens with literally everyone on the roster-- it's consistently inconsistent with the rest of the roster.

Random power spikes are a lot more rare, and usually they're just a return to form rather than reaching a level that they'd never previously reached.

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I think the story they're ultimately going for is that original Bray was a weakened combination that let the human element get in the way, and so when he split off into Funhouse Bray, it was a pushover personality that, instead of sharing the space, just fully steps aside for "The Fiend" to take over, and you get the supernatural crap. Kinda like how in Split, the personalities push the real Kevin aside so that they can allow "The Beast" to take over.

It's a direct knockoff. And I definitely agree that how much you like it can absolutely have varying mileage.

I just don't think the supernatural stuff is all that much of an inconsistency if you're already willing to accept Undertaker and Kane, because they're not just going "Oh, Bray Wyatt is a badass now."
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Given what we have seen from Bray in the past and what has happened to Bray over the years, I don't even see how multiple personalities is even a stretch. From Husky to crazy cult leader was already a pretty drastic shift and it's hardly like crazy cult leaders who speak in nonsense all the time are the sanest of people. Plus with shit like his house getting burned down.

it got burned down so hard the first time that the 2nd time it got burned down he already devised a way to have it be completely fine the next week
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You know how stressful it is rebuilding a house in a week

Dude, my desk fell apart once and I said fuck it and bought a new desk that was already put together
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Lopen posted...

I wasn't aware Bray Wyatt had a lifetime of multiple personalities being developed on WWE programming

In fact I'm pretty sure he's only ever had one alternate personality and it was the super overpowered one

Wait is Husky Harris a multiple personality too

I may be misremembering but didnt Bray say at one point early on that he was possessing Husky Harris?

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HashtagSEP posted...

I just don't think the supernatural stuff is all that much of an inconsistency if you're already willing to accept Undertaker and Kane

Because it's not actually about it being supernatural at all, for me at least, which has been my whole point. Not saying no one has that problem, but I feel like among people who dislike it, it being supernatural probably isn't the issue for the majority of them because otherwise why are you watching WWE in the first place.

Like if you're going to tell that split story that's fine but man WWE hasn't really done that at all and that's a lot of hoops to jump through to give the character the benefit of a doubt I think. At that point you're practically writing the story for them (as someone who has watched inconsistently, no less-- trust me those gaps you're filling in were not in the episodes you missed) because that's absolutely not what they've given us.

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Lopen posted...

Like if you're going to tell that split story that's fine but man WWE hasn't really done that at all and that's a lot of hoops to jump through to give the character the benefit of a doubt I think.

I mean they've absolutely told that story, at the least through implication, though.

Funhouse Bray and The Fiend are clearly different personalities than original Bray, since they both hate him (Funhouse has his pictures crossed out and did stuff like chainsaw the cutout, and Fiend has the lantern). And Funhouse Bray very clearly treats "The Fiend" as a different entity and warns opponents about him, just like "The Beast." It's a rather blatant imitation.
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