Board 8 > transience's top 100 games -- 2020 edition.

(+) Yeah! (+)

I mean, I'm just saying! I will defend P4 to the very end. I love the Investigation Team. One of my favorite JRPG parties ever.

If you're in it for the gameplay, there's no reason to play any Persona game ever again other than 5 until 6! The battle system gets better in every conceivable way with each iteration. I played 3 and 4 leading up to 5, and I did two full playthroughs of P5 back to back, and I was pretty much done with the game. I've beaten P4 at least 5 times at this point. I might go back to P5 once Royal drops if it's determined the new content is worth it.

---

I'm gonna have to bite my tongue until I get to 5. but, I will say that the 'small town feel' fits 3 better than 4, even though it's not portrayed as being small town, just because the game has a smaller scope and you can get to know the people a little easier.

---

I think gameplay wise 5 definitley is a big step up from 4 (and it was already good)

I would say 5 is not quite as good on the major character development and interactions that 4 has but still decent enough

Story wise, 5 has a bigger emphasis on different villains/antagonists you come to personally really wanna beat, while 4 is more on the build up on the mystery as well as the theme of main characters insecurities/true selves

So while 5s gameplay is so good its harder to play previous ones I wouldnt say it wins in all aspects necessarily


---

3 will always hold a special place in my heart because it's the first one I played and I really enjoyed the overall dark tone. I'm not sure how well it would hold up for me now.

I like 4, but I don't love the cast as much as others seem to. Dungeons and battling are definitely better than 3, however.

I love how flashy and crisp 5 is. I wish the cast had better chemistry, though. Maybe P5R will aid in that.

If forced to rank them, I usually go 3 > 5 > 4, but it's a pretty nebulous overall.

---

transience posted...

I'm gonna have to bite my tongue until I get to 5. but, I will say that the 'small town feel' fits 3 better than 4, even though it's not portrayed as being small town, just because the game has a smaller scope and you can get to know the people a little easier.

Eh, I don't feel like P3 rotates its NPC dialogue often enough. I usually only check it once a month because going everywhere isn't a breeze like it is with Inaba. You've got like 5 screens to cover, and the NPCs are always in the same place, so there's something comfortable about that. Plus, the NPCs in P3 feel like standalone entities while Inaba and its characters feel like a community, especially as you get to know them through sidequests and shared content. Like, you get to know the twin girls and their relationship, and how it works even though they're always in separate locations. The Fox S. Link especially really makes you feel a connection to the town as you run around everywhere helping these people out.

I appreciate P5's scale, but it almost has too much to do. There was a bunch of stuff I only did once or twice to trigger a Trophy (like the batting cages) and then I never bothered with it again.

---

Im pretty solidly of the opinion 5 > 4 > 3 (probably didnt help the latter twos standings that I played the games in reverse chronological order).

---

61.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiq4eOUDI2k

2002
GBA

Ive come to realize that this game isnt really a Metroid game, at least not in the traditional sense. Its not trying to recreate the same feelings as other Metroids. It goes big on story and mood to the detriment of the solitary, maze-y structure that the series so heavily identifies with.

Metroid Fusion is more like a survival game. Youre stalked by a creature that's stronger than you that could be around any corner. The game takes a lot (A LOT) of time to craft a story about what is happening on the planet. Theres more dialogue in this game than in every other Metroid game combined. Youre boxed in an area until you solve that mission and then move on to the next sector.

In doing that, Metroid Fusion becomes a unique thing. It straddles the line between classic Metroid powerups and tight gating to keep the storyline moving forward. It isnt completely successful at either at first, but as you get deeper into it, it actually kinda works really well. Its certainly the most tense and foreboding of all of the Metroid games, outside of maybe the original version of 2.

A Metroid superfan like me will always be bothered by the lack of freedom and some of the other mechanical restrictions put on the player, but if you can let go and enjoy the tension, Fusion brings something that other Metroid games simply cant.


---

LordoftheMorons posted...

Im pretty solidly of the opinion 5 > 4 > 3 (probably didnt help the latter twos standings that I played the games in reverse chronological order).

Yeah, it's definitely tough to go back to previous entries if you played 5 first.

---

i think you summed up all my feelings on fusion pretty well

both of the gba games play REALLY smoothly, and that has helped them age pretty gracefully i think
and since there have been plenty of subsequent games (both in and out of the metroid series) that capture the classic metroid formula, fusion's deviation is a lot easier to take for what it is now

---

I could write a lot about Persona 5, but quick summary is that it didn't work for me. Outside of highly improved aesthetics, I think it was a step back in literally every other way.

Dragon Quest 3 is really good.

---

60.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2PAI5JNAT8

2018
PC, Switch, PS4, XB1

Mega Man finally modernizes, or at least as much as a classic fan would want without it becoming a completely different thing. The classic Mega Man series is extremely dogmatic in its structure and series traditions never die or change. MM11 still holds on to what people feel is core to the experience - 8 robot masters, Rush, Yellow Devil and all the other series staples - but finds ways to innovate around the edges in ways that are surprisingly welcome, and most notably, manages to not really alienate core fans in the process.

MM11 brings in a new powerup system called Double Gear that honestly changes everything. Being able to slow down time or power up your weapons adds a dimension that just never existed before. It also has honest to god accessibility options for the first time, an easy mode, dedicated slide and rush buttons, weapon switching via the second stick, the ability to turn off the archaic lives system on easy difficulties, etc. My 6 year old was playing this today and was able to beat Wily 1 despite not having anywhere close to the skills needed to beat a single Mega Man level from any other game, and that's wonderful. (I should make a list of his top 10 games from my perspective. A lot of them would be on this list, probably, mostly because he plays what I own.)

And on top of all that, they also made some really good weapons that are fun to use in all sorts of ways. The game looks great. Once you adjust to Mega Man actually looking different for the first time in 20 years, you start to be amazed by all the particle effects of your awesome weapons. Each one is good here with lots of different uses depending on the situation. The color of this game really pops and the boss fights are dynamic in a way that theyve never been. This game looks just okay in screenshots, but great in motion.

Some of the stages, like Bounce Mans, are a little too gimmicky for their own good, and the game sometimes leans a little too hard into slowing down time with a lot of timed instant death hazards that chase you from behind. But other than that, they straight up nailed what I would want from a next-gen Mega Man classic game, something I wasnt sure I could ever want.

---

I was never a Mega Man purist in terms of mechanics or aesthetics. I actually liked MM7 quite a lot. MM8 was kind of a mess, but I think that was more because they tried to incorporate a serious story into it than the gameplay itself. I guess that's why I never bothered with MM9 and MM10 because a throwback to NES Mega Man isn't anything I was clamoring for. MM11 seems like it might be more up my alley.

---

out of curiosity, have you played 20xx? not sure if that's shown up on your lists before but i've had a decent time playing it with friends, despite its flaws

---

transience posted...

My 6 year old was playing this today and was able to beat Wily 1 despite not having anywhere close to the skills needed to beat a single Mega Man level from any other game,

Sounds like my kind of Mega Man game

---

I liked 20XX a lot, but I believe transience isn't an MMX type person.

transience posted...

My 6 year old was playing this today and was able to beat Wily 1 despite not having anywhere close to the skills needed to beat a single Mega Man level from any other game, and that's wonderful.

Not to throw shade on your son, but I got to the last boss in MM3 when I was 6. I feel like some people nowadays underestimate how good kids can get at games if they play them enough...?

LeonhartFour posted...

Eh, I don't feel like P3 rotates its NPC dialogue often enough. I usually only check it once a month because going everywhere isn't a breeze like it is with Inaba.

That's one of the things I loved about P3P. Getting around that game feels so simple! Made it a pleasure to play through.
---

I haven't played 20XX - I've heard mixed reviews, and yeah, I'm not an MMX fan. I've been interested but never took the leap.

Mac Arrowny posted...

Not to throw shade on your son, but I got to the last boss in MM3 when I was 6. I feel like some people nowadays underestimate how good kids can get at games if they play them enough...?

are you sure you were 6? I ask because there are lots of things that I remember doing at young ages that actually happened 2 or 3 years later. I can remember getting my face beat in by MM2 when I was 9, but by the time I was 12 I could handle it after a lot of practice. obviously others may be better than I was, but it wasn't until I was older that I could handle those games.

anyway, both of my kids can handle 3d games, but the idea of sidescrollers is actually really foreign to them. they tend to hold a direction for a long period of time because that's what they usually do, so when they try to play a 2d Mario or whatever, they have to fight against that. that's my perception of it anyway. my son is reaaaaaalllly bad at even the first level of Mario World but can beat Mario Odyssey (using the assist mode, but still) and is at the end of Breath of the Wild.

---

20xx borrows from both mmx and original mega man (and roguelikes of course) i feel like, but its a neat enough game, especially in co-op

i really ought to pick up mm11 now that i have a switch though

---

I think it's still on sale - $15. I just bought it a few days ago (I had played it in 2018, just finally spent the money on it)

---

I remember being able to get to the end of Mario World and Sonic 2 at a really young age, although those games aren't as tough as an NES Mega Man.

Still, I remember never being able to consistently beat Silver Sonic in Sonic 2 as a kid, and replaying it as an adult, I realized it was simple pattern recognition that I somehow never picked up on as a little kid.

---

transience posted...

are you sure you were 6? I ask because there are lots of things that I remember doing at young ages that actually happened 2 or 3 years later. I can remember getting my face beat in by MM2 when I was 9, but by the time I was 12 I could handle it after a lot of practice. obviously others may be better than I was, but it wasn't until I was older that I could handle those games.

anyway, both of my kids can handle 3d games, but the idea of sidescrollers is actually really foreign to them. they tend to hold a direction for a long period of time because that's what they usually do, so when they try to play a 2d Mario or whatever, they have to fight against that. that's my perception of it anyway. my son is reaaaaaalllly bad at even the first level of Mario World but can beat Mario Odyssey (using the assist mode, but still) and is at the end of Breath of the Wild.

Oh that's interesting regarding 2D vs. 3D games for kids nowadays. Hadn't thought of that. Interesting that they're good at one but not the other.

Also it's possible that I'm remembering from a later time, but I think we sold our NES by the time I was 7. My memories of that time aren't super sharp though, naturally.
---

I secretly have deep fondness for Metroid Fusion. The ways in which it takes the traditional Metroid structure and turns it on its head leads to some fascinating scenarios and gameplay moments. I think you nailed it by saying its a game about survival. It has such a distinct, oppressive atmosphere that is totally different, but so good. If you adjust your expectations for what Metroid is and can be, its one of the better games in the series!

You're moving fast! Page 4 comments.

• Maybe I should try Cadence of Hyrule. I played Crypt of the Necrodancer and it was definitely too hard for me, or at least hard enough I didn't feel motivated to get better at it because I just didn't know what I was doing wrong.
• FF4 - you've definitely played it way more than me. I love it because it's just fun and fast paced, there's always something happening. Also it has some great characters. I'm not sure about most influential by a mile, it's influential but it has some pretty significant competition from 1, 7, and maybe even 10. I don't really think you can say any FF is more influential than 7 ultimately.
• Actraiser! I love that game. Yuzo Koshiro deserves to be more well known than he is.
• I still haven't played Shadow Hearts 2. At this point I think I probably never will.

LeonhartFour posted...

I am the one who names his tiers after Ace Attorney quotes

I love this btw. Maybe I'll do it with Final Fantasy quotes.

Tier this guy are sick: hacknet to Xenoblade Chronicles X

Tier defeat Dycedarg's elder brother: Monument Valley to SSB Ultimate

Tier I'm gonna be a blitzball when I grow up!: Binding of Isaac to Shadow Hearts 2

---

transience posted...

are you sure you were 6? I ask because there are lots of things that I remember doing at young ages that actually happened 2 or 3 years later. I can remember getting my face beat in by MM2 when I was 9, but by the time I was 12 I could handle it after a lot of practice. obviously others may be better than I was, but it wasn't until I was older that I could handle those games.

Yeah, I have similar memories - although I'm pretty sure I did beat MM2 at 9 because I was in the 4th grade. 10 at the latest because I had beaten it a while before seeing MM3 demoed at Nintendo Powerfest in 1990, which happened when I was 10. I was pretty terrible at games when I was like 6-7, I couldn't beat SMB1 despite playing it a ton, or most other NES games. MM2 might actually have been the first one I did beat, although I think I probably finished Zelda 1 before that.

It's funny because I think of 2d games as having much more precise controls than 3d, but the games of that era were way harder on average.

---

59.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsLHvg93bX4

2008
360, PS3, PC, Switch, etc

Castle Crashers is ubiquitous. Everybody can play it, and I mean everybody. Its so simple and obvious and just fun. This was my sons favorite game when he was 4 years old.

Now, you can take that as a negative - that this game is so mindless that even a 4 year old can enjoy it. Thats a positive in my book - I want my beat em ups to stay plain. I dont want depth in the combat system, I want a simple game thats fun to mash out.

Castle Crashers is that exact thing, endlessly fun and mashy, and its one of those games you can easily come back to years later. The different character builds gives it just enough depth to keep it interesting. Just make sure you play with friends, because this game, enjoyable as it is, isnt close to being as fun by yourself.

---

AA5 has really good cases and really good moments, but feels less than the sum of its parts. there's just so much stuff in it.

---

I need to get you guys off of AA5. maybe this will help

58.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUQfT7dAu94

2011 (Japan)
DS

AAI2 does a really good job of staying fresh and clever. It feels like theyve learned how to write characters and scenarios better by this point. I especially like the games main foil, Justine Courtney. Shes a more refined version of Franziska von Karma and has a character arc that really pays off.

AAI2 incorporates an overarching story much better than any of the other games. Each case weaves together in smart ways and sometimes the payoff is unexpected. The final case in the game is basically a grand finale for everything thats happened in the game and the final scene has something like 17 characters in the same room trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Its real good.

All that said, the Edgeworth games, by design, are just less thrilling without the in-court segments. Because of that, the big reveals are less impactful and nailing the bad guy doesnt feel quite as good. AAI2 has a cohesion and a storyline thats way up there for the series but only ends up being middle of the pack because of the lack of payoff.

---

Yeah, I'd agree with your overall assessment. E2-5 is one of my least favorite epic cases (partly because the first half of the case is really rough), but E2-3 is probably my favorite non-epic case in the series. Probably the best intro case, too!

I wasn't as big of a fan of Courtney as you were, but she's solid.

---

57.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvOMXTMDMeE

SF2 is an absolute classic, one of the ten most influential games in video game history. Some of my best video game memories came at the hands of this game, whether it was from winning incredible matches in the arcades or just playing the SNES version of Turbo with friends.

Its a good thing they didnt have timers on games in the 90s because I put an unbelievable amount of time into SNES turbo. I had to have had at least 500 hours played, maybe even 1000. I dont think I make a list at the end of the 90s but if I did, this game is probably #1. Its not as much fun to play now - its very much a game that worked because it was omnipresent and everyone around knew how to play it well. This doesnt work so well when youre pushing 40 and havent had actual real life competition in close to 15 years. But I still love this game, and even playing against the bs computer still makes me smile to this day.

---

e2-5 has so many problems, but it pays off everything amazingly, including the otherwise bizarre e2-3. aai2 is the best constructed game of the series IMO, even when it's a huge mess (which is often!)

it's the single best case released between 2002 and 2016

---

SeabassDebeste posted...

it's the single best case released between 2002 and 2016

it'd barely be in the top ten...!

And yeah, I love SF2 Turbo and sank countless hours into that one and SSF2. I think Alpha 2 and SSFIV are my favorite SF games overall, but I put way more hours into Turbo and SSF2.

---

I still have fond memories about going to Japan on some long weekends (over from South Korea, it's a popular weekend getaway with cheap plane tickets) and playing SF2Turbo in the arcades. Its STILL immensely popular after all these years, although I'm no longer able to visit Japan so easily.

It's too bad the DGS games weren't that good.
---

it's too bad the DGS2 LP has been completely deleted without getting finished so now I'll never know how it ends

I thought DGS1-3 was really good though. Susato is a top tier assistant, and Holmes is great, too.

---

Yeah DGS1-3 is excellent and didn't overstay its welcome like the AAI2 cases.
---

56.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OWSoXUKWRQ

2009
360, PC, PS4, XB1

I went into a replay of Shadow Complex expecting the worst. Shadow Complex was a big deal because it hit at the perfect time, a time when downloadable sized games were starting to really hit it big but before every other game on the market was a 2d metroidvania. Those games didnt start hitting until 2011 or 2012 and by 2015 they were everywhere: Dust, Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet, Axiom Verge, Timespinners, Guacamelee, etc. Now its hard to find a 2d game that isnt a metroidvania in some aspect.

On top of that, Shadow Complex is one of the most visually ugly games in recent history, an ode to the washed out shades of grey and brown that was left behind during the mid to late 00s. It also has this awful 2.5d system where enemies shoot at you from the background in an attempt to simulate the third dimension. It was bad then and its worse now.

And yet, this game somehow totally works? Shadow Complex is fairly linear in its design but theres still a thrill in finding hidden items. Powerups really make you feel more powerful and the game does a good job at taking you from being ultra weak to a fighting machine.

The right stick aiming makes this games combat more interesting than the standard Metroid thing of standing there and shooting. Your movement options are good once you start getting things like the foam gun and the double jump. The pacing is the best part as it feels super hard to put it down once you get going. You always feel like something good is going to happen next. For a game with a lot of glaring flaws up front, Shadow Complex is shockingly good.

---

I enjoyed Shadow Complex when I played the recent PC release a couple years ago

---

i'm tagging this so late i need to prepare to tag topic 2

---

i think there's about 3 metroidvanias released on steam a week better than shadow complex

what an ugly, linear game that plays just well enough to be notable a decade ago when these things were uncommon, but is completely unremarkable now

---

thanks for showing up! (it's still pretty good today)

---

i don't log in often!

i played it back in february alongside shadow of the tomb raider and quantum break, two pretty bad games themselves, and thought shadow complex was the worst

at least it's super short

---

it could be worse

it could be automata

---

the second best game ever according to the last list i made, so yes technically it does get better than automata!

---

why does a metroidvania have turret sequences and a main character voiced by nolan north btw

---

yeah it's a weird thing

---

55.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnDzJ9KzuV4

2017
PS4

Persona 5 is basically the best in the series in every mechanical aspect. The social linking and the rewards you get from them, the dungeons, the battle system, the music, the story, the unbelievable sense of style everything is best in class here. If you take Persona 5 as a checklist of features, its way the heck up there.

And yet, it isnt even my favourite Persona game just because of how excessive it is in every aspect. This game needs a damn editor. The pacing is just never any good: Persona games, for me, are all about the reinforcing feedback loop between story, social linking and dungeon crawling, and P5 will often spend multiple hours going in on story beats that just dont need half as long to be explained. Sometimes you just want to get back to playing the game, or at least I do. Even when the game finally wraps up its narrative, it throws in a weird coda to pad the game out ten more hours because yeah, thats exactly what this game needs.

Its easier to talk about the negative aspects of P5 because the positive is that this is a great looking and sounding Persona-ass Persona game. Especially the sound. Sometimes youre wandering around town in the rain and Beneath the Mask is playing and the games unique look and feel just hits you in the best way.

---

glad we can all agree that as far as metroidvanias go, Shadow Complex > Hollow Knight

P5 was great, but I don't have too many fond memories of it, for whatever reason? I mostly loved it as I was playing it. Maybe it's because I watched the awful anime and that poisoned some of my experience.
---

iiicon posted...

i think there's about 3 metroidvanias released on steam a week better than shadow complex

what an ugly, linear game that plays just well enough to be notable a decade ago when these things were uncommon, but is completely unremarkable now

This is some truth.

Oh, cool. I passed on commenting on the P4 listing with persona wars because it no longer felt timely but we've got an in again!

My personal take on the (post-3 series because 1 and 2 don't exist) is 3 > 4 > 5. Mechanically they improve with every iteration, that's undeniable. However I also feel they also keep taking steps back in story, characters, or atmosphere in ways that cancel out that improvement. 4 at least, I feel can trade arguments with 3 in some areas even if I'm on Team 3. But 5? "Hollow" is the word that comes to mind for me. Cast takes a step back from 4. So does the story. I want to hope Royal can address some of this much like Golden was a great improvement on 4 but as is there's a noticeable gap between it and 3/4 IMO.

5 does have style though i will certainly give it that

---

3 > 5 > 4 imo

all three have unique strengths that make any ranking totally understandable. all three are also gross in the exact same way re: trans and gay characters. the yakuza team over at sega recognized their faults and corrected that, maybe they should take over the persona franchise too.

heroicmario posted...

This is some truth.

and now we live in an age where we get a monster boy or monster boy clone a couple times a year too! truly a blessed age

---

Didn't the Persona team see some change in leadership after 5? I've heard Royal hasn't really changed in that regard but maybe there's hope 6 can be better about it? Because yeah, Atlus has a... not good... track record on those issues.

---