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wg64Z 12/29/19 7:33:00 AM #1: |
If you use rewind/save state to finish a game, did you beat it?
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https://twitter.com/Mike_Matei/status/1210959863733530625?s=19 I will clarify, I dont view state saving when you're done playing the game for the day as cheating. But using it to cheat the system to always make the best choice or prevent death is more what I'm asking about. Discuss. --- Do you like humor, gameplay, and daily content? Check out my hilarious let's play Youtube Channel, Tarvould's Quest! https://www.youtube.com/TarvouldsQuest ... Copied to Clipboard!
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NFUN 12/29/19 7:37:46 AM #2: |
Yes what kind of stupid fucking question is that
--- Thus is our treaty written; thus is our agreement made. Thought it the arrow of time; memory never fades. What was asked for was given; the price is paid ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Paratroopa1 12/29/19 7:51:12 AM #3: |
man, whatever
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ctesjbuvf 12/29/19 7:53:20 AM #4: |
More often than not it's more of a timesaving thing, so yes, I'd say.
--- Guinness Book of World Records is the name of the diary that belongs to Advokaiser, the winner of the Character Battle X guru contest. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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wg64Z 12/29/19 7:54:06 AM #5: |
Speed runners should do it before a really hard trick in order to safety save or try it again without having to risk a soft lock or reverting to the last in game save.
--- Do you like humor, gameplay, and daily content? Check out my hilarious let's play Youtube Channel, Tarvould's Quest! https://www.youtube.com/TarvouldsQuest ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Leafeon13N 12/29/19 8:11:36 AM #6: |
As long as you aren't save crawling with them sure.
If you use them as an alternative to wasting tons of time farming health or supplies it's fine. If you are hitting a save state every 5 seconds or whatever, then not so much. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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linid0t 12/29/19 8:34:35 AM #7: |
Tough question.
Take SMW2 Yoshis Islnd for example. To complete many of the later stages at 100% with all the red coins and stuff it takes some good planning and precision. Its now on the switch and comes with a 10 second rewind at any time. I can keep rewinding and trying the tough parts over with ease so the tough routes are now a walk in the park. Hard to convince me someone who gets 100% that way is the same as someone who did it on the original snes cart. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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TomNook 12/29/19 8:49:32 AM #8: |
Beating with save states and rewinds is just a thing to specify when claiming to have beat a game. I don't think you can say "you beat the game" without adding that you used save states and rewinds. That's like beating Contra with the Konami code, and just saying "you beat the game" and not elaborating that you had help, or using a Game Genie/Game Shark for any other game, and saying "you beat the game" without elaborating.
Yes, it's beating the game, but there are lots of ways to beat a game. Usually a conversation involves more than a couple words. I wouldn't go up to someone and say I beat Tetris, and then walk away. There is certainly more to a conversation about what difficulty, or how you did it, and explaining your thoughts about the game. So ultimately, Yes for the poll. It just has caveats. --- Bells, bells, bells! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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linid0t 12/29/19 8:51:40 AM #9: |
TomNook posted...
Beating with save states and rewinds is just a thing to specify when claiming to have beat a game. I don't think you can say "you beat the game" without adding that you used save states and rewinds. That's like beating Contra with the Konami code, and just saying "you beat the game" and not elaborating that you had help, or using a Game Genie/Game Shark for any other game, and saying "you beat the game" without elaborating. If we have to dance through these hoops after the fact wouldn't the easiest solution be you either beat the game on default settings exactly as the developers intended it to be played, or you didnt. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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TomNook 12/29/19 8:56:12 AM #10: |
linid0t posted...
If we have to dance through these hoops after the fact wouldn't the easiest solution be you either beat the game on default settings exactly as the developers intended it to be played, or you didnt.I believe that's the only way one could fairly say that they beat the game, without elaborating. On one hand, if you beat the game on the hardest difficulty and 100%'d it, it would leave a sense of under representation of yourself and game experience if you never mention it how far above and beyond you went. The flip side of course being this topic, where you took the easy way out, and take full credit, leaving others to misinterpret your experience. It's mostly pointless, but I just think when the topic of beating a game comes up, people would typically talk about it enough to explain what their experience was like, so it mostly wouldn't matter. --- Bells, bells, bells! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Leonhart4 12/29/19 9:01:58 AM #11: |
I would say that by at least some stretch of the imagination you have beaten the game because you quite literally beat the game
If you want to argue about "fairness" or whatever, sure, but there's no need to discredit the way someone else plays a game. --- ... Copied to Clipboard!
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wg64Z 12/29/19 9:04:13 AM #12: |
I mean if someone is grabbing extra cash from the bank in Monopoly every turn I'm not going to call them a winner if they end up beating me.
--- Do you like humor, gameplay, and daily content? Check out my hilarious let's play Youtube Channel, Tarvould's Quest! https://www.youtube.com/TarvouldsQuest ... Copied to Clipboard!
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linid0t 12/29/19 9:04:22 AM #13: |
Leonhart4 posted...
I would say that by at least some stretch of the imagination you have beaten the game because you quite literally beat the game Sure if you spent the money and own the game there is no "wrong way" to play it but for all intents and purposes does anyone really use cheat codes, save states, rewind, etc. Then tell everyone they completed a hard game? How could you sleep at night knowing you're a great big fucking phony ... Copied to Clipboard!
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The Mana Sword 12/29/19 9:04:30 AM #14: |
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Dancedreamer 12/29/19 9:05:31 AM #15: |
Depends on how you use it.
If you're just using it to save time, it's fine. If you're abusing it in order to beat the game, then you haven't really beaten the game. So if you save just before a boss fight? That's okay. If you save mid-boss fight? Nope. --- This isn't funny Dean, the voice says I'm almost out of minutes! ~Alexandra ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Leonhart4 12/29/19 9:06:07 AM #16: |
I sleep pretty well because I don't get my sense of self and accomplishment out of beating video games.
But then again, I'm not someone who ever plays a game on the hardest difficulty to begin with. Crushing difficulty is not something in games I find fun. --- ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Peace___Frog 12/29/19 9:06:30 AM #17: |
It's unnecessarily elitist and nostalgic to try to distinguish it. Who the fuck cares how someone "beat" the game, they still played and got to the credits. Let people play how they want. Not everything needs to be a goddamn trophy.
--- ~Peaf~ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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wg64Z 12/29/19 9:10:07 AM #18: |
Leonhart4 posted...
I sleep pretty well because I don't get my sense of self and accomplishment out of beating video games. Really? Damn dude I definitely love the sense of accomplishment that comes along with beating a really hard game. It's an incredible feeling! If your only playing to advance the story you could always just watch a silent LP on YouTube. --- Do you like humor, gameplay, and daily content? Check out my hilarious let's play Youtube Channel, Tarvould's Quest! https://www.youtube.com/TarvouldsQuest ... Copied to Clipboard!
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TomNook 12/29/19 9:10:57 AM #19: |
Dancedreamer posted...
So if you save just before a boss fight? That's okay.But the challenge in a game's difficulty often comes in one's ability to do a series of button inputs with minimal mistakes in an established window set by the game designers. You say saving mid boss fight is cheating, but before a boss isn't? Perhaps the game designers intended the full stage AND boss to be part of the same challenge window in which your skill isn't allowed to falter, and saving before a boss when you normally couldn't would be seen as a form of cheating. --- Bells, bells, bells! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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linid0t 12/29/19 9:14:21 AM #20: |
TomNook posted...
But the challenge in a game's difficulty often comes in one's ability to do a series of button inputs with minimal mistakes in an established window set by the game designers. You say saving mid boss fight is cheating, but before a boss isn't? Perhaps the game designers intended the full stage AND boss to be part of the same challenge window in which your skill isn't allowed to falter, and saving before a boss when you normally couldn't would be seen as a form of cheating. He probably meant within the default settings of what's allowed in game. Most games allow the player to save in some fashion before major boss fights. If come one is using an emulator to play and use save states part way through a fight that's what he means as it's not something that was ever intended to help you ... Copied to Clipboard!
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TomNook 12/29/19 9:17:13 AM #21: |
linid0t posted...
He probably meant within the default settings of what's allowed in game. Most games allow the player to save in some fashion before major boss fights.Certainly true for more modern games. My mindset was aimed at NES era where the Rewind is commonly seen--such as Mega Man, where the stage and boss go hand in hand as part of the challenge. --- Bells, bells, bells! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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wg64Z 12/29/19 9:19:11 AM #22: |
And even in Mega Man a 1up is essentially a "save" before a boss since it means you dont need to beat the whole level again unless you burn through all your lives.
--- Do you like humor, gameplay, and daily content? Check out my hilarious let's play Youtube Channel, Tarvould's Quest! https://www.youtube.com/TarvouldsQuest ... Copied to Clipboard!
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TomNook 12/29/19 9:24:02 AM #23: |
wg64Z posted...
And even in Mega Man a 1up is essentially a "save" before a boss since it means you dont need to beat the whole level again unless you burn through all your lives.Exactly. Depends on the game. The developers of each game have their own set difficulty and leeway. I think adding your own leeway, no matter where, before a boss, mid-fight, etc, reduces any intended experience. --- Bells, bells, bells! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Dancedreamer 12/29/19 9:34:10 AM #24: |
TomNook posted...
But the challenge in a game's difficulty often comes in one's ability to do a series of button inputs with minimal mistakes in an established window set by the game designers. You say saving mid boss fight is cheating, but before a boss isn't? Perhaps the game designers intended the full stage AND boss to be part of the same challenge window in which your skill isn't allowed to falter, and saving before a boss when you normally couldn't would be seen as a form of cheating. So you'd say that since the Mario 64 speedruns that use glitches don't beat the game the 'intended way', that they aren't really legitimately beating the game? And on the other hand, a game like Far Cry 4. You can beat the game by doing almost nothing. A way the developers actually intended a means of victory. You even see the credits! --- This isn't funny Dean, the voice says I'm almost out of minutes! ~Alexandra ... Copied to Clipboard!
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linid0t 12/29/19 9:36:21 AM #25: |
Dancedreamer posted...
So you'd say that since the Mario 64 speedruns that use glitches don't beat the game the 'intended way', that they aren't really legitimately beating the game? I believe the way speedrunners or people exploiting glitches for world record scores are concerned, if it's in the game and you aren't using any cheats or save states to accomplish it, then it's fine. I think its also an important note that almost all discussion in this realm really comes down to arcade games, platformers, action games and similar things. There would be absolutely no point in using save states for something like final fantasy for example beyond what's already given to you. It's a jrpg they aren't exactly known for needing extreme skill or 10 minute long segments of uninterrupted twitch reflexes ... Copied to Clipboard!
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wg64Z 12/29/19 9:44:11 AM #26: |
Dancedreamer posted...
So you'd say that since the Mario 64 speedruns that use glitches don't beat the game the 'intended way', that they aren't really legitimately beating the game? Both those examples are things that are in the game as it originally shipped though. Speed runs also have seperate categories for that very reason, usually glitched and glitch less. --- Do you like humor, gameplay, and daily content? Check out my hilarious let's play Youtube Channel, Tarvould's Quest! https://www.youtube.com/TarvouldsQuest ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Maniac64 12/29/19 9:53:11 AM #27: |
Did you play the game start to finish?
Then you beat it. --- "Hope is allowed to be stupid, unwise, and naive." ~Sir Chris ... Copied to Clipboard!
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wg64Z 12/29/19 9:58:36 AM #28: |
Maniac64 posted...
Did you play the game start to finish? Finished it* (if you cheated) --- Do you like humor, gameplay, and daily content? Check out my hilarious let's play Youtube Channel, Tarvould's Quest! https://www.youtube.com/TarvouldsQuest ... Copied to Clipboard!
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RyoCaliente 12/29/19 10:01:10 AM #29: |
All the old games were hard as shit to draw out the length anyway, so if there's any way to shorten it, it's fair.
--- How paralyzingly dull, boring and tedious! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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HaRRicH 12/29/19 10:24:46 AM #30: |
"Yo, I just beat Super Mario 3!"
"Sweet, what did you play it on?" "The Switch!" "Cool!" That's enough to tell you they beat it and they could have rewound or not. Anything beyond that and you're qualifying how good that player is...which can be a fine and fun conversation, but plenty of bad players have beaten plenty of games. I saved something like 84 times when I played Resident Evil 4. I'm awful at it and horror games in general, but you can't take away I beat it by only using what the game gave me. Very similar thing here -- if they beat it, damn, just let them say they beat it and you can qualify it as you see fit afterward. --- O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK! https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png ... Copied to Clipboard!
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linid0t 12/29/19 10:28:54 AM #31: |
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banananor 12/29/19 10:38:45 AM #32: |
Does beating a game on "easy" count as beating the game?
Of course it does. Therefore, I believe beating a game on "ez rewind" mode also counts as beating the game. --- You did indeed stab me in the back. However, you are only level one, whilst I am level 50. That means I should remain uninjured. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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HaRRicH 12/29/19 10:38:48 AM #33: |
Standing by my stance, but that's pretty funny.
--- O P E R A T I O N O U S T : Nominate SHEIK! https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/images/0/0d/Sheik-Victory3-SSB4.png ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Grimlyn 12/29/19 10:44:23 AM #34: |
Peace___Frog posted...
It's unnecessarily elitist and nostalgic to try to distinguish it. Who the fuck cares how someone "beat" the game, they still played and got to the credits. Let people play how they want. Not everything needs to be a goddamn trophy.this is the correct answer, you experienced through to the end and can reminisce & share/relate with the full game then sure you beat it and I couldn't care less how many times you typed bactame or yodajammies in Dark Forces II --- https://gmun.moe/ffcc GuessMyUserName's account's very own account! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Great_Paul 12/29/19 10:47:40 AM #35: |
I think its fine if its used in a way to save time, such as saving before boss fights that send you way back if you lose. There are a lot more games to play these days, and it sucks having to redo levels for losing to bosses.
--- Bear Bro So, confirmed Santa's #1 helper is a squirrel. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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linid0t 12/29/19 11:06:15 AM #36: |
banananor posted...
Does beating a game on "easy" count as beating the game? Do you consider this type of victory the same as someone who didn't need a handicap? ... Copied to Clipboard!
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HeroDelTiempo17 12/29/19 11:14:17 AM #37: |
yes and there's no downside for including accessibility options and you should not care if other people use them if you don't like them
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linid0t 12/29/19 11:26:47 AM #38: |
HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
yes and there's no downside for including accessibility options and you should not care if other people use them if you don't like them I dont think anyone is at all against accessibility. What people dont agree with is saying someone beating Contra with 1 credit is the same as someone who credit fed and died 300 times accomplished the same thing. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Dels 12/29/19 11:31:53 AM #39: |
i mean i think it depends on context
if you're just chatting with someone about which games you've gotten through you don't wanna be like "i didn't beat celeste" "oh okay i won't talk about the ending then" "no no i saw the ending and credits, i got to the end, i just didn't <i>beat</i> it because i used accessibility mode" but if someone is like "have you beaten ... Copied to Clipboard!
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wg64Z 12/29/19 11:39:26 AM #40: |
HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
yes and there's no downside for including accessibility options and you should not care if other people use them if you don't like them I don't care, in fact if it helps people play some of the classic retro games I'm all for it. Doesnt mean I'm gonna consider it a win if they cheat to do it. Im also not actively refereeing or even asking people HOW they beat a game once they tell me, cause I really dont care. It's just a thought I keep to myself and figured would make for a decent discussion (which honestly, it has!) --- Do you like humor, gameplay, and daily content? Check out my hilarious let's play Youtube Channel, Tarvould's Quest! https://www.youtube.com/TarvouldsQuest ... Copied to Clipboard!
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banananor 12/29/19 11:41:05 AM #41: |
linid0t posted... Do you consider this type of victory the same as someone who didn't need a handicap? Beating the game on easy is not the same as beating the game on hard, so no --- You did indeed stab me in the back. However, you are only level one, whilst I am level 50. That means I should remain uninjured. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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banananor 12/29/19 11:42:32 AM #42: |
But I can't remember a conversation where it really mattered.
You'd have to specifically ask if someone beat it on hardcore legendary if you only wanted to count hardcore legendary difficulty or whatever --- You did indeed stab me in the back. However, you are only level one, whilst I am level 50. That means I should remain uninjured. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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lordjers 12/29/19 12:18:25 PM #43: |
Obviously not, it's just another cheat. An OP cheat even.
Unless you think every person that's able to hold a controller can now beat Battletoads. --- Backlog: Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne (PC) (Hard mode), Personal Nightmare (Amiga). Last finished: Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos (PC) (Hard mode). ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Grimlyn 12/29/19 12:24:25 PM #44: |
linid0t posted...
What people dont agree with is saying someone beating Contra with 1 credit is the same as someone who credit fed and died 300 times accomplished the same thing.literally nobody has said otherwise I don't think you have to be worried about someone bragging about beating a game with save states for cred --- https://gmun.moe/ffcc GuessMyUserName's account's very own account! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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davidponte 12/29/19 12:24:52 PM #45: |
Crazy idea here, but what if we just let people enjoy gaming in whatever way they want and didn't gatekeep "beating a game".
It feels like people on the side of "oh wow you didn't play it without additional help so that doesn't count" are actively bothered by how other people choose to game, which seems absolutely wild to me. --- I was the final Undisputed Champion in UCA history, however Advokaiser was the Guru Champion! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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tazzyboyishere 12/29/19 12:33:29 PM #46: |
Yes because the idea that video games aren't designed to be enjoyed is incredibly dumb
--- https://imgur.com/l7xxLh1 PSN/Steam - RoboQuote ; NNID - TazzyMan ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Raka_Putra 12/29/19 12:35:28 PM #47: |
Uh okay so I've played Pokemon Fire Red with emulator. And I use save states since it's faster than going to the menu and saving manually. Say I don't use the save state to 'rewind' a battle or try to catch a Pokemon. I just use it functionally in place of a normal save because it's more convenient. Did I beat the game? I don't see why not. The outcome wouldn't change one bit.
--- Into the woods, but mind the past... Into the woods, but mind the future! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Jakyl25 12/29/19 12:37:27 PM #48: |
tazzyboyishere posted...
Yes because the idea that video games aren't designed to be enjoyed is incredibly dumb And yet thats the stance of the people on Twitter who started this The irony that Mike Matei of all people is championing the stupid game design of many NES games as something to take pride in overcoming is staggering --- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRlKR5nU8AA_v_C?format=jpg&name=large ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Jakyl25 12/29/19 12:38:31 PM #49: |
Basically this entire idea is being floated by people who tie some sense of their self worth up in how they beat video games
--- Thank you, Eddie Guerrero. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRlKR5nU8AA_v_C?format=jpg&name=large ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Jakyl25 12/29/19 12:40:29 PM #50: |
And can I just also say that JonTrons stance that he hates when developers facilitate easier ways to play their own game is (unsurprisingly) even worse
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