Poll of the Day > I was thinking of taking a Japanese class at one of the local universities.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Good idea? Bad Idea? Brain dead idea?

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Learn it on your own time instead.
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Medium idea

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It depends on how affordable it is (for you) and how much you feel that's worth it as well as how much structure and practice you feel is good for your language learning. If you want to be made to study and keep a schedule, have someone to explain things, and get practice with the language, a college course is the way to go. If you aren't as concerned with those things, you can probably buy some textbooks and use digital resources (website, games) to do it on your own.

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Have you tried Duolingo?

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SpeedDemon20 posted...

Have you tried Duolingo?

This. Been learning Spanish and German this way.

Why would you want to learn Japanese?

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what is the purpose? would you be doing it for anything actually worthwhile, or is it just for weeb shit?

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If you want to learn it, why not? Some folks benefit more from an instructional classroom environment vs. self-learning, although with languages it will definitely take more hands-on practice to become proficient.

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trodi_911 posted...

Why would you want to learn Japanese?

I know, right? Thats soooo early 2000s.

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HornedLion posted...

I know, right? Thats soooo early 2000s.

Honestly though, is there a better reason to learn something than to enjoy it?
I have interest in two languages, Spanish and Japanese due to stories, video games, etc that are natively in those languages.
If I learned Spanish, it would be for fun and not just for how useful it is. That's just a plus.

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I'm currently going through an unhealthy weeb obsession. Last time I had one of these was a decade ago. Back then I attempted to learn some basic Kana, but lost most of it over that time.

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Judgmenl posted...

unhealthy weeb obsession

i knew it, ok?

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You're always on point DukeZiggy, ok?

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Learning any additional language, no matter how esoteric, is a valid endeavor

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I had a coworker who was learning Japanese as an elective. He showed me some of his work. It seemed so confusing, way worse than Spanish or French. Forget trying to read and write it.

If you want to learn it, have fun. Not the first one I'd pick to learn, but I'm not the one who wants to learn

@yomi can help u with this

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If you learn Spanish, there's a good chance you can start reading and enjoying things in the language within a month or less if you skim over a grammar guide and learn a lot of the main vocab that differs greatly from English.

If you learn Japanese, you will need to spend a lot of time learning how to read in the first place to achieve similar results.



The above is VERY roughly the same section of a Zelda: OoT guide in each language (Inside the Great Deku Tree, room where you get the Compass). Not translated, these are guides written natively in each one. Starting at section [5] of the JP guide, it's already pushing you to do the next thing you need to do (jump down to break the spiderweb on the floor in the first room you entered at the start). The Spanish guide "takes longer" to convey the same information (not a failing of the language, purely the author's choice and writing style) and isn't even officially out of the compass room by the bottom of that screenshot.

Important things to consider:

• A JP beginner won't be able to read the JP guide in the screencap until they know a lot of stuff
• A JP beginner probably won't even be able to find the guide because searching is not as intuitive as going onto GameFAQs and finding the Spanish Language Guide for Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (mad props to the author of the FAQ by the way)
• There is less text to read in most JP kouryaku/guides, as, at least from my observations after reading a ton of the things, gravitate towards a more "to-the-point" writing style and don't waste time. You'd think this is great. It is. But not for learners who need to take in as much text as possible to "git gud." Language learning, especially early on, is purely "how many sentences can you read and mostly comprehend" and not much else.

If you want to feel like you're making rapid progress and actually understand what's going on at an early point, Spanish is recommended. There's lots and lots of resources and compelling media to take in for both Japanese and Spanish, but purely because you don't have to learn how to read all over again (and you bring like 40% of your vocab with you), Spanish is "easier" even if it has some parts that are said to be daunting (mostly grammar shit that isn't actually bad in context).

Language learning is about 1 thing: the AMOUNT you do. It's not about how smart you are or how "good at learning languages" you are. Spend enough time reading it, listening to it, enjoying it, studying it, and you will see results.

also @Yomi
They understand the trials and tribulations, as do I.

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I've flip flopped on the idea of learning Japanese, due to it being a stereotypically weeb thing to do. But I eventually realized that worrying so much about what other people think is lame, and as long as you don't become insufferable because of it, you're fine.

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keyblader1985 posted...

I've flip flopped on the idea of learning Japanese, due to it being a stereotypically weeb thing to do. But I eventually realized that worrying so much about what other people think is lame, and as long as you don't become insufferable because of it, you're fine.

domo arigato, keyblader-San.


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Senpai cant notice if you never try.

Japanese isn't too bad to learn on your own if you're dedicated, and at low cost to boot.

I'm not a huge fan of university-style lectures for language learning, just because you lose a lot of the interactivity that you need to really cement the language in.

YonicBoom posted...

A JP beginner won't be able to read the JP guide in the screencap until they know a lot of stuff (and truthfully, I don't think they'll teach you a lot of it even in higher level college classes)

To be fair, most beginner-level Japanese has furigana to help out with reading. A guide like that is not really beginner-level stuff.

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darkknight109 posted...

I'm not a huge fan of university-style lectures for language learning, just because you lose a lot of the interactivity that you need to really cement the language in.

This really depends on the specific university and class. At better schools the classes will be smaller and much more interactive. I would say there you get far more interactivity and practice as well real-time feedback than you could ever get through self-study. The problem with self-study is you usually miss out on conversation practice.

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However, I still think that for many purposes self-study is great and can be quite effective. If you find the right resources you can accomplish quite a lot with it. I self-studied hiragana and katakana as well as some kanji and basic vocabulary on my own before beginning any formal courses. By the time I began formal study I had pretty much mastered the kana systems and knew some key words.

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Eww, who actually wants to learn Japanese?!

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Learn it on your own time instead.

Probably the best idea. My bros ex housemate learns it in his own time.

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Deganawidah posted...

The problem with self-study is you usually miss out on conversation practice.

Well, you would need to work that in and there's lots of resources out there that allow you to do so. I agree that conversation practice is pretty critical, especially given that a lot of Japanese requires learning the differences in intonation between homophones or words with extended vowels ( vs. , for instance).

Honestly, though, as long as you can find a tutor or someone who you can study with, I think a lot of the language learning can be self-directed. The other nice part is that this lets you tailor your learning to whatever application you want in mind. Given that reading, writing, and speaking/understanding spoken Japanese are essentially three different, if related, skills this lets you focus on whatever branch(es) are of interest to you. There's little point learning the finer points of how to write kanji if you never intend to actually hand-write anything in the language, for instance.

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darkknight109 posted...

To be fair, most beginner-level Japanese has furigana to help out with reading. A guide like that is not really beginner-level stuff.

Furigana is great for someone who already knows a large amount of Japanese words. A beginner is not going to have a large vocabulary at all. Otherwise, seeing written on top of isn't going to do someone much good if they don't know the word already. Adding to this, one who plays a kana-only game but can't differentiate between what is a word and what is "grammar" may end up mis-reading things due to inability to parse the sentences.

Japanese "beginner" stuff like kid's books and shows are aimed at people who are already fluent in Japanese. This is somewhat paradoxical for the second-language learner who would benefit more from skipping stuff with kana-only, and furigana, and instead learning as much kanji-stuff as possible and avoiding assists like furigana. Avoiding the Kanji "problem" only makes it worse going down the line. The sooner you tackle and accept Kanji, the sooner your brain deals with it and can rise to the challenge.

Again, in my own post, I advised that
YonicBoom posted...

truthfully, I don't think they'll teach you a lot of it (the things required to read a simple guide for a game) even in higher level college classes

And learning how to speak/produce Japanese or whatever target language... that should not even be a topic of discussion here. Your ability to use a language is determined exclusively by, and limited by, how much of it you have taken in and can comprehend. Trying to use a language your brain doesn't understand to a moderate degree is just taking steps backwards.


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YonicBoom posted...

Furigana is great for someone who already knows a large amount of Japanese words. A beginner is not going to have a large vocabulary at all.

Depends on your definition of "beginner". If you're talking about someone who is completely brand new into the language, no, obviously they're not going to have much of a vocabulary. My definition of "beginner", in this context, is someone who has the minimum necessary skills to start reading low-level Japanese text, which is usually someone who understands basic Japanese grammar, including particles and simple conjugations of verbs and adjectives, and has a few hundred Japanese words under their belt, as well as a resource to look up ones they don't know. Knowledge of some basic kanji may or may not be included.

YonicBoom posted...

Avoiding the Kanji "problem" only makes it worse going down the line. The sooner you tackle and accept Kanji, the sooner your brain deals with it and can rise to the challenge.

I'm not suggesting avoiding kanji (as someone who made the mistake of attempting to read some material written entirely in kana when I first started learning, I completely agree that it is, if anything, more confusing than something with kanji in it), I'm saying that beginner-level Japanese material (ones that are specifically designed for someone learning it as a second language, rather than for a native-speaking child) usually have kanji with furigana and that makes it a little easier to get into.

A guide like the one you just posted is not something I would give someone who is starting to read Japanese; that's for someone who has spent at least a few years studying the language (maybe less if they are doing nothing else and learning Japanese is something they spend 4+ hours a day on), as it requires not only substantial knowledge of the language itself, but also of some intermediate-level kanji with no furigana aids. That's not beginner material no matter which way you slice it (the same way that the same guide in English wouldn't be beginner-level English).

YonicBoom posted...

And learning how to speak/produce Japanese or whatever target language... that should not even be a topic of discussion here. Your ability to use a language is determined exclusively by, and limited by, how much of it you have taken in and can comprehend. Trying to use a language your brain doesn't understand to a moderate degree is just taking steps backwards.

I mean, I don't necessarily disagree, but Japanese is, compared to Latin-based languages, very "striated" in terms of how different the reading/writing system is from the speaking component. If your main goal for learning Japanese is being able to read your favourite manga as soon as it comes out, your pronunciation and listening comprehension is going to be less important than your ability to quickly identify and translate kanji. By the same token, if your main goal is to be able to speak to that Japanese martial arts teacher that comes over for seminars, it's probably not worth focusing on the stroke order of the kanji so much as learning how to pronounce things properly and the different applications of polite/plain speaking styles.

Of course, if your aim is fluency you'll need to tackle everything eventually, but where your initial focus lies can vary.

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The simple fact is that self-study is the only truly viable option, and there are many excellent resources available to someone with the willpower and patience to surmount the first hurdles of the language. Formal class study should be a means to gaining the independence to go forth with such self-study. Class can offer structure to the chaotic nature of language, but conquering that chaos is something that only you can do, no matter how well a teacher equips you for the task.

If I compare the first 60 days of my Japanese learning journey to my ongoing Spanish one, things are very different.

JP:

• learned kana
• started playing Pokemon Red and "mined" 20 new words a day, placing their Kanji forms on flash cards for review
• reviewed flash cards at any time of day you can imagine... at work, in the car, at the shop...
• moved up to Golden Sun and reading NHK EASY news once finished with Pokemon Red, keeping up the same mining efforts and amounts
• read over Tae Kim Grammar to gain awareness of what grammar exists, so I wouldn't mix it up with words

As I didn't really have a "method" besides whack away at the vocabulary/grammar rock, things were slow-going. One of the things I think was GOOD about how I did it was that I stuck with a few things and really focused on them instead of jumping from thing to thing. I also avoided distractions of people/youtubers talking for hours about their experiences, opting instead to simply study more or read/play more.

In hindsight, the only things I would have done differently would have been to go even harder on the things that would enable me to read more, sooner. More words. More grammar. Just, more. So when I recently started learning Spanish, I took advantage of the "no kanji" thing and made every effort possible to get reading real bodies of text ASAP.

Spanish

• skimmed an online grammar guide to gain awareness of what exists in the base language, did not study it in depth (as with enough exposure to it in the wild, it will become very apparent how certain things work and are used)
• started reading game guides on day 2 (why I just happen to have a screencap of one) as they are usually fairly simple reading yet cover a wide array of vocab, and are usually written in "standard" language with minimal slang. (They're also something I can read fairly easily at work on one of my 3 monitors, as trying to read books is somewhat hard in my somewhat dimly lit office)
• for tradition's sake, started playing Pokemon Fire Red, but dropped it after I decided I don't feel like playing Pokemon again, and also there's not that much text, not getting enough bang for buck when I can just read other things to greater effect.
• in the first 2-3 weeks, mined and carded around 50 words a day of *only* words which are exceptionally common (occurring at almost every turn) but also *different* enough that they aren't incredibly obvious what they mean (such as: mostrar, llegar, llevar, acercar, aplastar, doler, etc) until I had about 800 of the things more or less committed to memory. Dropped cards entirely afterwards to focus on reading. Note: only words I encountered while reading were added, these were not pulled from a specific list, just based on what I was seeing in reality.

It's still too soon to tell how effective this method will be for Spanish learning, and I'm refraining from output at all for a long time until I've consumed enough. I'm also like 5 full FAQs deep and am considering purchasing actual books to read for pleasure at home to expand my passive lexicon further.

tl;dr No teacher can get you to this point. You can get you to this point. If you have a teacher, their (and your) goal is to make it so you no longer need them, as quickly as you can.


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YonicBoom posted...

Furigana is great for someone who already knows a large amount of Japanese words. A beginner is not going to have a large vocabulary at all.

Furigana is great for a beginner too, because it lets you read uninterrupted (assuming it has a good font that distinguishes between characters like and ). It also simplifies dictionary lookup a great deal when reading in formats where you can't ctrl+c the text.

I agree with doing self-study for Japanese. Worked for me. I can now read intermediate level stuff pretty comfortably, so things like video games and manga are no problem. Studied for about a year and a half.