Current Events > Alabama to ban transgender surgeries and hormone blockers for teenagers.

(+) Yeah! (+)

UnfairRepresent posted...

MarqueeSeries posted...

Ah yes

Nothing greater than transphobic trolling getting a bunch of shitty alts suspended or warned

CE really needs a higher karma limit, or to stop taking new accounts all together

it already has a karma limit

Do you ever actually read the posts you reply to? Because:

higher karma limit
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shockthemonkey posted...

Pi its real funny how you claim not to be anti trans but you never post anything positive towards trans people in topics like this and always shit talk people who do. And then you complain about everyone who can see through your obvious bullshit.

What are you gaining out of this?

the problem is that once you're critical of how children are being handled in terms of transitioning, you're suddenly an anti-trans bully who's a villain to the left, and even if you don't say hateful shit, not saying "anything positive" is tantamount to evil

and of course grounds for moderation with extreme prejudice :^)

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"Lots of trans people dont agree with you"
"Pointing that out means you obviously don't care about the trans community!"

wat

Have you always been at war with EastAsia Shock?
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i'm not pretending anything. you might be surprised to learn that my opinions on the subject are actually the common ones, both on and off the internet

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lil_GoodOlJr_69 posted...

Id advocate that all underage transgender funding be routed to underage cancer patients

Argue your way out of that

You just burned this topic to the ground CE cant handle this kind of argument

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viewmaster_pi posted...

the problem is that once you're critical of how children are being handled in terms of transitioning, you're suddenly an anti-trans bully who's a villain to the left, and even if you don't say hateful shit, not saying "anything positive" is tantamount to evil

it depends on what you say

"Critical " is vague as hell
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Why do you attack people every time you don't have a counterpoint?

it's really jarring

Probably just attacking you because you are UnfairRepresent.
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Machete posted...

Probably just attacking you because you are UnfairRepresent.

Ah that makes sense.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

it depends on what you say

"Critical " is vague as hell

well i can say that going through puberty after 18 if they decide not to transition doesn't sound normal or free of adverse effects. i mean there was just an article being discussed where a young trans man de-transitioned to female and was talking about how you can never really go back like nothing ever happened, after you commit to it

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Ah that makes sense.

I mean I agree with him if that's what he is doing.
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viewmaster_pi posted...

well i can say that going through puberty after 18 if they decide not to transition doesn't sound normal or free of adverse effects. i mean there was just an article being discussed where a young trans man de-transitioned to female and was talking about how you can never really go back like nothing ever happened, after you commit to it

men have a different journey than women.

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viewmaster_pi posted...

. i mean there was just an article being discussed where a young trans man de-transitioned to female and was talking about how you can never really go back like nothing ever happened, after you commit to it

Yeah that's the thing that troubles me too

This is no longer academic or a hypothetical. People who transitioned as children have grown to regret doing so and are claiming they couldn't consent.

You can't sweep that under the rug by calling them outliers. They are outliers but they still exist. They haven't gone away because you don't like them.

I'm not sure if "Well we need to sacrifice their physical and mental health in order to improve the mental health of these other kids." is strong enough

It reminds me of when people who are pro-child circumcision say "Well it's fine because only a minority wish we never did it."

Isn't it better to wait until the person is 18 and able to make their own informed decision? Even if it's a post puberty transition?

That's an open question BTW. I'm legitimately not sure myself and can be easily swayed
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what's the reason to transition children as early as possible? so they more convincingly pass as the gender they're transitioning to, correct?

but aren't there trans people who don't feel body dysphoria? isn't the idea behind transgenderism that your physical body doesn't HAVE to allign with your gender expression?

so it just seems strange to me that people are pushing so hard to risk kids' longterm futures just so they can superficially appear a certain way for the time being

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shockthemonkey posted...

We definitely need to stay vigorous to ensure that people are getting the appropriate medical treatment and that people arent being given some treatment nonchalantly in hopes that it works and without weighing the side effects.

But I think that goes for all medical decisions and I dont think trans people are the exception there; I think theyre just a more controversial target because a significant amount of the population already rejects transition as legitimate.

Kids who are wrongly diagnosed and treated deserve recourse for the medical malpractice that happened against them, but thats hugely different from outlawing medical decisions that can save other lives. You dont outlaw blood transfusions because someone received tainted blood - you improve the process for determining which blood is tainted.

I don't think you're following the point Shock.

We're not talking about malpractice in that the treatment was wrong.

We're talking about consent. There are people saying that as kids they were 100% conviced in their thought that they were the opposite gender but as fully mentally developed adults realize they were wrong and are arguing that they could not consent as kids because their brains can't comprehend the thoughts they are having.

The treatment was correct at the time. The person just changed.

The blood wasn't tainted
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viewmaster_pi posted...

what's the reason to transition children as early as possible? so they more convincingly pass as the gender they're transitioning to, correct?

There are great benefits to transforming early.

The later you leave it the more difficult it is and the more your body has already developed as the opposite sex

For men especially.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

There are great benefits to transforming early.

The later you leave it the more difficult it is and the more your body has already developed as the opposite sex

For men especially.

i don't think that's the right word, lol

but that's what i said, but that's just superficial, assuming the person wants to appear more or less as one sex or the other, and that's definitely not something i think kids understand enough to make a decision on

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So many kids are going to die/harm themselves over this

Machete posted...

I mean I agree with him if that's what he is doing.

What did I do to you? :(
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viewmaster_pi posted...

what's the reason to transition children as early as possible?

the kids make that decision for themselves and if you were a little girl you'd want to be a woman.

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a velastronaupter

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you are not trans. :)

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Wewillrocku posted...

you are not trans. :)

that's not the point, but if you're saying trans kids should be treated like they know their bodies better than cis kids, that's a press X to doubt from me.

kids are just kids, and should be left alone as they develop their identities and discover life, because they're changing all the time. i mean i was one

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When somebody in a conversation about transgender people breaks out "I wanted to be a dinosaur when I was a kid" you know it's time to tag and stop engaging.

shockthemonkey posted...

A lot of trans teens are horribly depressed and many even commit suicide because of dysphoric puberty. Alleviating that and allowing them to transition is good for both their mental and physical health. A catch-all process where we ban things that help many because they harm some is not great.

If the treatment was wrong then the treatment was wrong. If a doctor treats strep throat because the kid thought they had strep throat rather than treating the kid for the pneumonia they actually had, the doctor fucked up.

I get what youre trying to say but its a medical problem when people are given the wrong medical treatments.

Except you're conflating physical issues with mental ones.

"Well the child might be wrong about whey want" is not on par with "Well the child might not actually have a hole in his heart."

The latter is cut and dry. Empirical.

The former is opinion.

How can they be "misdiagnosed" if the criteria is identical until 20 years later when things change retrospectively? That's not a reasonable thing to expect doctors to be able to account for.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

What did I do to you? :(

You have unfairly represented me on multiple occasions.
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Tenlaar posted...

When somebody in a conversation about transgender people breaks out "I wanted to be a dinosaur when I was a kid" you know it's time to tag and stop engaging.

It bugs me when Ben Shapiro goes "Wanting to be 80 doesn't make you 80" and smirks

Nobody fucking said it did Ben! You're not making any points!
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shockthemonkey posted...

Its perfectly reasonable for doctors to be able to diagnose based on more vigorous standards that lead to less misdiagnoses. Much more reasonable than completely banning a medical practice that saves lives.

You might be right but you're so vague . I don't get what "vigorous standards" can penetrate the reality that a child with 100% conviction might not end up as an adult with 100% convinction. Their brain literally hasn't fully developed yet. We don't let them decide their diets or when they get to sleep or who they get to talk to. But we do let them decide what gender they are with accepted understanding of what Gender even is?

And then expect doctors to know which will maintain the same belief and which won't for the rest of their lives? All through unspecified "vigorous standards"

I find it hard to ignore the people who wish they never transitioned as kids the same way you discard them.

I also can't agree that the kids who ended up regretting their transition were "misdiagnosed"

They were diagnosed correctly at the time. The information was identical. It's them who changed, not the treatment. Physical illnesses or conditions are not comparable to mental ones. Mentality is fluid. Your body is not... except the fluids I guess.

I just don't think it's nearly as cut and dry as you want it to be.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

It bugs me when Ben Shapiro goes "Wanting to be 80 doesn't make you 80" and smirks

Nobody fucking said it did Ben! You're not making any points!

ben dover shapiro never makes any points.
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Tenlaar posted...

When somebody in a conversation about transgender people breaks out "I wanted to be a dinosaur when I was a kid" you know it's time to tag and stop engaging.

that was the last thing i said, after making a point, not substituting it for one, but i'm sure if i hadn't said it at all, you'd definitely consider my opinion instead of disregarding it, right? :^)

the modus operandi at play

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viewmaster_pi posted...

that was the last thing i said, after making a point, not substituting it for one, but i'm sure if i hadn't said it at all, you'd definitely consider my opinion instead of disregarding it, right? :^)

the modus operandi at play

To be fair to him you did do yourself a disservice.

It's hard to take you seriously at all if you make silly claims like that. Comparing transgenders to kids wanting to be dinosaurs is insulting the intelligence of anyone who reads it.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Have many of these cases have you actually seen the medical reports and therapists notes for? Im assuming its 0, same as me. So you saying that its all identical is entirely hearsay.

oh come on

Are you seriously going to argue that all of the people who regretted the transition would have been caught if only there were different therapists notes?

I can't agree with that.

shockthemonkey posted...

And if a diagnosis is wrong its a misdiagnosis.

I don't think it was wrong at the time. That's the point

It doesnt matter if it looked like the right one. Thats the point of improving the ability to diagnose. Which to your point about mental health issues, do you think that there has been no advancements on diagnosing those? Do you think our standards for diagnosing bipolar, etc have never improved? Its disingenuous to say that we shouldnt work to improve things when, as a society, were constantly working to improve these things.

I never said we shouldn't continue to "improve things" whatever that even means Trump.

I said I don't believe that there will ever come a time where we can know what convictions children will hold their entire lifetime as adults.

Let's make up numbers for the sake of argument and say 75% of kids who want to transition as kids maintain that belief as adults.

and you go "Well with higher standards I can't specifiy that might become 80 or even 85%" I'm still not convinced that's a good enough solution.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Comparing transgenders to kids wanting to be dinosaurs is insulting the intelligence of anyone who reads it.

that's an interpretation the reader chooses, not the intention. simple points get modded because people get mad and twist words when they mark shit. i wish i could give people the benefit of the doubt that they don't just try and get biased mods to do their dirty work instead of just responding to it, but weasels gonna weasel

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Are you seriously going to argue that all of the people who regretted the transition would have been caught if only there were different therapists notes?

Can you give me some sources for where your numbers come from for how many people have gotten to the various stages of treatments and how many of them have regretted it?

viewmaster_pi posted...

that's an interpretation the reader chooses, not the intention. simple points get modded because people get mad and twist words when they mark shit. i wish i could give people the benefit of the doubt that they don't just try and get biased mods to do their dirty work instead of just responding to it, but weasels gonna weasel

No one is twisting your words dude.

Tenlaar posted...

Can you give me some sources for where your numbers come from for how many people have gotten to the various stages of treatments and how many of them have regretted it?

I have no numbers

As far as I am aware no one does
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UnfairRepresent posted...

No one is twisting your words dude.

they (and you) absolutely are if you can't (or more accurately, refuse to) understand the point i made before joking about space dinosaurs. 100% of my post was completely earnest, but that one little tidbit at the very end of a paragraph suddenly means nothing else was posted, and it gets deleted for "trolling"

there's no trolling, it's just censorship. you can't talk about this at all without dancing around eggshells like you're playing minesweeper, and that's what bothers me. everything is twisted to come out worse

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topics like this proves that playing dumb for the sake of pushing a narrative isn't exclusive to one "side."

it's people cut from the same cloth but disagree vehemently in specific areas of life. so they have the same behaviors even though they are arguing two different positions against each other.

CE just isn't the place for genuine, honest discussion lol.
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viewmaster_pi posted...

they (and you) absolutely are if you can't (or more accurately, refuse to) understand the point i made before joking about space dinosaurs. 100% of my post was completely earnest, but that one little tidbit at the very end of a paragraph suddenly means nothing else was posted, and it gets deleted for "trolling"

there's no trolling, it's just censorship. you can't talk about this at all without dancing around eggshells like you're playing minesweeper, and that's what bothers me. everything is twisted to come out worse

No it's blatantly trolling dude

Post it again without the stupid dinosaur bit and no one will "censor" it
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UnfairRepresent posted...

I have no numbers

As far as I am aware no one does

So then when you make an argument like "all of the transgender people who regretted the transition" you don't actually mean anything of substance, because that number could be, say, 3%?

UnfairRepresent posted...

No it's blatantly trolling dude

Post it again without the stupid dinosaur bit and no one will "censor" it

it's absolutely not, the point was made clearly and concisely, and the same thing posted without it would absolutely be mass-marked anyway. it's how these topics always go once people decide you're the baaaaaaad guuuuuy (duh)

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Tenlaar posted...

So then when you make an argument like "all of the transgender people who regretted the transition" you don't actually mean anything of substance, because that number could be, say, 3%?

Ok let's say it's 3%

You think it's okay to casually disregard them like shock does?

They still exist dude. They don't go away because they are outliers. The number isn't important
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shockthemonkey posted...

This is one of the more bizarre ways to refer to trans people, as if being trans is some conviction that people hold and not medical.

It is indicative of somebody who believes that being transgender is a choice.