Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 285: The Ends Justify the Means Testing

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Tony you should probably just sit back and take a breath.

I'm personally not going to get involved in the argument anymore starting today because I'm just tired. I'm be writing in Bernie I'm November, nothing can happen that will change that, but you really just gotta accept that Biden is getting this nom, regardless of how terrible and fake he is.

Just so we're clear:

undefined posted...

It means Bernie is telling you to vote Biden if hes the nominee and you are advocating for a Trump presidency. These two sides are mutually exclusive and your opinion is hypocritical.

I'm literally not doing this though?

Do not confuse me being terrified that Joe is going to blow it with me saying Trump should win.

Also Wang I didn't say praising a Republican was worse than praising Castro, I drew the distinction that Joe Biden praised the man and Bernie praised a policy, not the man.

As we've learned, people don't vote based on policy.

Edit: I do need to step back because I'm supposed to be doing school, but I'm at home because of 'Rona and hella distracted.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Tony you should probably just sit back and take a breath.

I'm personally not going to get involved in the argument anymore starting today because I'm just tired. I'm be writing in Bernie I'm November, nothing can happen that will change that, but you really just gotta accept that Biden is getting this nom, regardless of how terrible and fake he is.

Again I'm going to reiterate, Bernie is telling you that the best thing for this country is to beat Trump.

If you dont vote for Biden if he wins you don't actually believe in Bernie Sanders.

Like, there are two outcomes here if Biden wins.

Biden does somehow manage to keep his word and push forward these progressive policies, despite the odds. We win!

Biden shows his colors and is a.moderate stooge. We're vindicated! Depressesed, but vindicated!

So that's it. You don't have to support him, God knows I won't, but it's not gonna do any good to keep bitching about it.

While the right and libertarians are tripping over themselves to scream at each other about how we absolutely have to sacrifice all of our values and embrace full communism now, the left is still doing this.

https://twitter.com/rabble/status/1240685676619689984

No online school will be allowed in Oregon, because it isn't properly inclusive.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Do not confuse me being terrified that Joe is going to blow it with me saying Trump should win.

Maybe the reason people get this confused is that at least half of your posts are going out of their way to shit on Biden, and to try and convince people that he's this awful person and the worst candidate ever.

Biden is destroying Bernie right now, so there's no reason to think that Bernie will magically do better than Biden against Trump. The super energized wall of young voters that will deliver a win to Bernie isn't a thing, this primary made that very clear.

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Leafeon13N posted...

Again I'm going to reiterate, Bernie is telling you that the best thing for this country is to beat Trump.

If you dont vote for Biden if he wins you don't actually believe in Bernie Sanders.

I beleive in progressives, and that there are no other voices in the progressive movement strong enough to lead who are eligible to run at this time. I was behind Bernie because he was the only option for the movement. If Biden shows that he is willing to throw away the majority of his political history to be progressive, that's fine, but it's not possible to know that during an election where nothing anyone says can be trusted, only after he's won. Until then, only his history matters.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

I beleive in progressives, and that there are no other voices in the progressive movement strong enough to lead who are eligible to run at this time. I was behind Bernie because he was the only option for the movement. If Biden shows that he is willing to throw away the majority of his political history to be progressive, that's fine, but it's not possible to know that during an election where nothing anyone says can be trusted, only after he's won. Until then, only his history matters.

So you believe in progressives, but are perfectly fine with setting the movement back 30-50 years? Doesn't make much sense.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

I beleive in progressives, and that there are no other voices in the progressive movement strong enough to lead who are eligible to run at this time. I was behind Bernie because he was the only option for the movement. If Biden shows that he is willing to throw away the majority of his political history to be progressive, that's fine, but it's not possible to know that during an election where nothing anyone says can be trusted, only after he's won. Until then, only his history matters.

You literally know what Trump stands for. You can be a +1 swing for Trump if you want to be a hypocrite though.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Do not confuse me being terrified that Joe is going to blow it with me saying Trump should win.

How do you reconcile that with

The best thing for the Progressive movement would be Biden getting blown the fuck out but Dems winning downballot to keep the Supreme Court safe.

unless you are arguing for accelerationism or straight up revolution? Do you honestly think the progressive movement will achieve better results under a Trump presidency?

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Also you don't actually believe in progressives because even AOC is telling you beating Trump must happen.

But sure, don't actually vote( a vote for someone not viable doesn't count).

Joe's VP choice will be Hillary, they are both centrists and very similar.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

How do you reconcile that with

unless you are arguing for accelerationism or straight up revolution? Do you honestly think the progressive movement will achieve better results under a Trump presidency?

It was an idealized hypothetical in response to someone saying "this is the best thing for progressives".

And no, a regular Trump presidency would not be better for progressives because we have potentially 2 seats on the Supreme Court coming up, but a Trump Presidency where Dems control everything?

That'd be great.

He'd be totally impotent for 4 years, if he managed to not get removed, and then in 2024 a Dem would have the advantage, and (hopefully) a progressive Dem even moreso.

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Also no, I don't think AOC is the next Bernie, I like her, but her national poll numbers are absolutely terrible.

We have to wait for a dark horse to emerge.

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if you follow the "lmfao accelerationism" trajectory line of Hillary Clinton -> Joe Biden I think your hypothetical 2024 candidate in that timeline would be Delaney or Cuomo.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

It was an idealized hypothetical in response to someone saying "this is the best thing for progressives".

And no, a regular Trump presidency would not be better for progressives because we have potentially 2 seats on the Supreme Court coming up, but a Trump Presidency where Dems control everything?

That'd be great.

He'd be totally impotent for 4 years, if he managed to not get removed, and then in 2024 a Dem would have the advantage, and (hopefully) a progressive Dem even moreso.

It'd be great for progressives, but it also isn't going to happen. If Trump wins, he likely gets to pick another 2 seats on the Supreme Court.

Even if a Progressive Dem wins in 2024, it's too late. The damage is done. How is that reality so hard to understand? Dreaming of that scenario is pointless because the Dems won't win the house and senate while Trump wins the general.

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https://twitter.com/carterforva/status/1240559018084630529?s=19

RaidenGarai posted...

It'd be great for progressives, but it also isn't going to happen. If Trump wins, he likely gets to pick another 2 seats on the Supreme Court.

Even if a Progressive Dem wins in 2024, it's too late. The damage is done. How is that reality so hard to understand? Dreaming of that scenario is pointless because the Dems won't win the house and senate while Trump wins the general.

Political hypotheticals are fun.

It's for fun.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

And no, a regular Trump presidency would not be better for progressives because we have potentially 2 seats on the Supreme Court coming up, but a Trump Presidency where Dems control everything?

That'd be great.

He'd be totally impotent for 4 years, if he managed to not get removed, and then in 2024 a Dem would have the advantage, and (hopefully) a progressive Dem even moreso.

This is straight up untrue. The Trump administration would still wield immense executive power and all legislation would STILL be DOA due to veto powers, and Dems having a veto-proof majority in the Senate is a fantasy scenario. Not to mention, again, Trump's conservative judges and SC are ensuring that a Democrat congress has as little oversight power as possible. Even if they did, just having a Democratic executive would still be better for progressives as they'd have more bargaining power within the party than having to put up a unified front against a Republican, as they have to do now.

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Progressives are already achieving results under Trump. We are weeks away from UBI being implemented, which would take decades or centuries under Democrats if it happened at all.

Republicans/WH turning on direct payments somewhat. Graham and WH CoS Meadows arguing against them to Trump now:

https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1240709683792318464

As for the Republican plan itself...

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1240713887659548673

One Republican Senator said the Republican plan would give up to $1200 to individuals making $75k or less in adjusted gross income. It decreases above that and at $95k or above ($190k for couples) you get nothing.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

We have to wait for a dark horse to emerge.

Do you mean "White Male"?

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xp1337 posted...

Republicans/WH turning on direct payments somewhat. Graham and WH CoS Meadows arguing against them to Trump now:

https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/status/1240709683792318464

As for the Republican plan itself...

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1240713887659548673

One Republican Senator said the Republican plan would give up to $1200 to individuals making $75k or less in adjusted gross income. It decreases above that and at $95k or above ($190k for couples) you get nothing.

It phases out to 0 at 95k? Noooooo! Trump better stop this phase out. Everyone should be paid!

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

This is straight up untrue. The Trump administration would still wield immense executive power and all legislation would STILL be DOA due to veto powers, and Dems having a veto-proof majority in the Senate is a fantasy scenario.

Hey man, the entire thing is a fantasy scenario

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No means testing!

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Hey man, the entire thing is a fantasy scenario

yeah and your fantasy scenario is still worse than the same scenario but swapping Trump for Joe Biden!

Unless you're gonna argue that in this fantasy scenario Dems would impeach Trump/Pence anyways and you would just prefer to crown President Pelosi as a true progressive icon.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

yeah and your fantasy scenario is still worse than the same scenario but swapping Trump for Joe Biden!

Unless you're gonna argue that in this fantasy scenario Dems would impeach Trump/Pence anyways and you would just prefer to crown President Pelosi as a true progressive icon.

They might replace her with an actual progressive as speaker.

Yang

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HeroicCrono posted...

No means testing!

Glad we can reach across the aisle about this
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I saw someone saying that Tulsi dropped out now of all times because she's gunning for that "woman VP" slot, and that's why she chose not to run for reelection.

lol

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Lmao Tulsi

Don't really want the endorsement itself, but presumably that means she won't be running as an independent which is good.

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So moderate Democrats are still going to act like they are entitled to progressive votes? Great way to push progressives away tbqh

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Samurai7 posted...

So moderate Democrats are still going to act like they are entitled to progressive votes? Great way to push progressives away tbqh

So here's the thing - voting is a lot like public transportation. Sometimes there's a bus route from right outside your house that passes exactly where you want to go, and it's great! You get on, pay your fare, ride across town, step off, and you're there. Very convenient.

Sometimes, though, the nearest bus doesn't go exactly where you want. Maybe you have to walk a few blocks at either end; maybe you need to transfer to another bus, or a train. But you still need to go that direction, because you need to go to work or go shopping or whatever. So you suck it up, walk the extra blocks or pay the extra fare, because that's where you need to go.

In case the analogy is flying over your head: If you support literally any progressive policy at all, you will get much more of what you want from President Biden than you will from President Trump.

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You guys wanna know something funny?

According to Univision's electoral poll, Bernie won Cubans over Biden.

https://corporate.univision.com/press/press-releases/2020/03/16/univision-publishes-complete-results-of-its-florida-electoral-polls/

https://st1.uvnimg.com/2f/87/b37afeb14b33839ce16ac705aa1e/univisionpolling-march-florida-latino-final1.pdf



If I'm reading this right, Bernie is the #1 first choice AND the #1 second choice, for Cubans, lol.

Yes, the poll also acknowledges Biden has double Bernie's support overall, but it's just a funny little thing that goes to show narratives are stupid, like we keep talking about the Castro thing like it moves the needle for Cubans, when in reality I think it's not an unreasonable bet that Bernie loses Florida so bad because it's littered with old people.

No need to complain about my random observation being pointless, please.

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https://twitter.com/jabinbotsford/status/1240701140141879298?s=21

Lol what a chump
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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/jabinbotsford/status/1240701140141879298?s=21

Lol what a chump

I have a really annoying friend who's been going out of his way to call it the "CCP Virus" every time he mentions it.

These people are so petty.

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Btw young people keep saying they need to not vote to get the DNC's attention(I assume this sentiment is being propped up by Russian bots). This is pretty much proven false at this point and if you actually believe this you are a goddamn moron. The fact is the reason young people get ignored is because they have a long history of...not voting. You want to know how much attention they have garnered by employing this strategy? Not very much. The fact is the only way young people are ever going to gain a bigger platform is if they actually show they are a reliable voting voting group.

Continuing to not vote is going to result in exactly the same thing it always has, people ignoring you.

(And no, showing up to vote for Bernie Sanders when hes not the nom or Jill Stein or whoever isn't going to get anyone's attention, its just going to make people think you are a fucking moron)

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I have a really annoying friend who's been going out of his way to call it the "CCP Virus" every time he mentions it.

These people are so petty.

I think yesterday when he got questioned on the racism surrounding it he realized he had an opportunity to energize his base by...linking his coronavirus response to racism. He literally doubled down on the rhetoric once the question came up and then stuck with it today.

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weren't there more young people voting this time than in '16?

i think the reason biden destroyed bernie is because there were also, like, 10 times more old people voting than in '16.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

weren't there more young people voting this time than in '16?

i think the reason biden destroyed bernie is because there were also, like, 10 times more old people voting than in '16.

how many concessions was Hillary making? She made some, but she certainly wasn't as aggressive as BIden has been to recognize the Sanders platform.

They see those voters and they want them. But if those voters dont come out in the general they'll rethink that in the future.

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https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/19/politics/coronavirus-economic-stimulus-senate-republicans/index.html?

lol ok this is trash.

My fear of Republicans trying their best to not get dumpstered in November is slightly lessened.

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https://twitter.com/EmmaKinery/status/1240676267063640064

It's utterly amazing to me that people look at this and think that the problem is Trump and not inflexible bureaucrats who would rather watch millions die than allow an "unapproved" product (or, more accurately, an unapproved off-label usage of an already approved product).

You want me to believe this is a really serious problem that isn't at all exaggerated? Let me know when the FDA fucks the hell off and says "Doctors should use whatever they think is best."

Until then, this is a joke.

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Another former candidate endorsement

https://twitter.com/SenGillibrand/status/1240768925266305024

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Red, you realize calling people idiots for not voting for who they want to vote for because they aren't on the ticket is one of the things that drives people to do so in the first place, right?

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Red, you realize calling people idiots for not voting for who they want to vote for because they aren't on the ticket is one of the things that drives people to do so in the first place, right?

If you go to the poll and vote for Bernie Sanders when hes not on the ticket, there are a large number of people that will think you are a moron and not bother trying to court your vote in the future. This is a fact. I don't think I explicitly called anyone an idiot. I merely stated a factual statement of the opinion people will hold over such voters.

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I don't like the Republican proposal for relief.

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You know, I can't blame you, because I said the same thing in 2016. Difference is I flipped in the opposite direction.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

You guys wanna know something funny?

According to Univision's electoral poll, Bernie won Cubans over Biden.

https://corporate.univision.com/press/press-releases/2020/03/16/univision-publishes-complete-results-of-its-florida-electoral-polls/

https://st1.uvnimg.com/2f/87/b37afeb14b33839ce16ac705aa1e/univisionpolling-march-florida-latino-final1.pdf



If I'm reading this right, Bernie is the #1 first choice AND the #1 second choice, for Cubans, lol.

Yes, the poll also acknowledges Biden has double Bernie's support overall, but it's just a funny little thing that goes to show narratives are stupid, like we keep talking about the Castro thing like it moves the needle for Cubans, when in reality I think it's not an unreasonable bet that Bernie loses Florida so bad because it's littered with old people.

No need to complain about my random observation being pointless, please.

Most likely this is because the majority of Cubans in Florida and the vast majority of people who would care about the socialism stuff are Republicans. And the ones who don't are young.

Corrik7 posted...

I don't like the Republican proposal for relief.

Sameits very bad! Absurd amount of money for an airline bailout, and then a very small amount of means tested money for the people. No thanks.

HeroicCrono posted...

Most likely this is because the majority of Cubans in Florida and the vast majority of people who would care about the socialism stuff are Republicans. And the ones who don't are young.

I agree, I think the data actually shows this, too.

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