Board 8 > Anagram Aces Ace Attorney Topic 4: Dual Destinies Edition (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yes, it's back! Why, you ask? Because my job is on work from home, I finished a couple of other games on my backlog, and I have nothing else to do of value. I finished AA1-4 in the first three topics, and I finished the Investigations games in the time since, which leaves us now with just two more English-translated games. If you missed the original topics, too bad, I saved nothing.

I already finished 5-1, so I can't post my thoughts as I go along. Things I remember:

• Athena did not immediately click with me. I'm not a huge fan of the clutzy anime girl trope, and it looks like she's being built to have an edgy backstory.
• Ted Tonate is an A+ name, though nothing matches Deid Mann.
• The emotion sub-system is okay, but I don't know if the series needed another sub-system.
• I'm not loving the 3D models, they don't seem to have quite the personality the sprites had. This is most noticeable with Phoenix's sweating animation.
• Apollo's new clothing is wonderful, it's like Raiden showing up in MGS4.
• It feels like the game wants to introduce new players into the world, but it makes zero attempt to explain anything that's going on with Phoenix and Apollo, and Trucy just shows up with no explanation, which is a bit odd.

Anyway, just to get this out of the way before I begin 5-2:

Top Tier
3-5
2-4
1-4
3-4

High Tier
1-5
4-1
1-2
3-1
E2-3
E2-4
2-2
E2-5

Average Tier
4-4
E2-1
1-3
E2-2
5-1
E1-4
3-2
E1-2
E1-1

Low Tier
E1-1
E1-5
3-3
2-3

Bad Tier
2-1
E1-3
4-2
4-3

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I'm in.
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• I forgot about the anime cutscenes. I have zero opinion on these.
• So our killer looks like he's going to be another Redd White-looking guy, okay. Seems a little obvious, I could see this being a misdirect.
• Back in Phoenix's office. Phoenix, I wouldn't blame you for getting rid of Gramareye's portrait. That guy was the worst person on Earth who wasn't an actual murderer.
• Oh, it's set before 5-1, got it.
• Who is Apollos even explaining his backstory to that Trucy can interrupt and give her own thoughts?
• Ah, another one of the traditional Los Angeles mountain villages celebrating yokai and kitsune. I didn't do a topic for AAI, so let me just say here that the part that made me roll my eyes the most was Kay saying "I have an Asian friend." I bet you do, clearly-Japanese-ninja-girl, I bet you do.
• Man, they are still leaning hard into the magic panties joke.
• I cannot imagine this being your first AA game. You'd be so confused.
• "I'm not a demon, I'm a lawyer."
• I enjoyed how the off-screen fun at the festival was one second of some voices playing over a dark screen.
• I refuse to believe the average person knows what an alderman is.
• I feel like this scene of Athena throwing the cop was meant to be her introduction, but we obviously already know her from 5-1, so it's just kind of weird?
• I can't keep track, how old was each lawyer when they became a lawyer? I know Athena 18, Sebastian 18, and Franziska 13.
• A monster photo, okay, Lotta Hart incoming for sure.
• Phoenix's power, Apollo's power, and Athena's power are all just different ways to force someone to tell the truth, dammit, you don't have to pretend they're all unique and special. Phoenix's in particular is just confronting someone with evidence that they lied. Edgeworth is the only one with a unique power, and his power is "key + locked door = open door."

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Anagram posted...

Phoenix's power, Apollo's power, and Athena's power are all just different ways to force someone to tell the truth, dammit, you don't have to pretend they're all unique and special. Phoenix's in particular is just confronting someone with evidence that they lied. Edgeworth is the only one with a unique power, and his power is "key + locked door = open door."

https://www.awkwardzombie.com/comic/eureka
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5-2 is a fantastic case. Probably my favorite in this game, which is not a low bar.

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yeah that Athena "intro" was weird

I love PUNISHED APOLLO so much



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5-2 is really good as an introduction to most of the characters, and it's a fun case.

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Well see. This game does immediately feel like it captures the first three games better than AA4-on, but I obviously cant make a definitive statement get.

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Tag!

Unlike everyone else I'm not crazy about 5-2, but hype for 5-3

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Team Rocket Elite posted...

https://www.awkwardzombie.com/comic/eureka

Also, https://www.awkwardzombie.com/comic/culture-schlock

• I know that a felon serving as a lawyer is more ridiculous than a rock star serving as a lawyer, but the very fact that felon and lawyer are connected concepts makes this work better than Klavier does.
• Blackquill immediately establishes himself as a fun manipulator. Bit odd, to be honest, immediately after playing Investigations 2, where everyone is like THERE'S A MASTER MANIPULATOR DERP, but I'm into it.
• This is the weakest explanation ever for why you can't just immediately solve the issue with your lie detection powers.
• It would be better if the far shots of the courtroom after dramatic moments, when the audience is chattering, had Blackquill leaning back against his stand like in his normal pose, rather than standing up tall.
• I like the animation of Jinxie's reflection in her plate.
• So why is Apollo's bracelet illegal to Blackquill, but not Athena's program?
• I had to solve the psychology section by just randomly guessing. "You didn't feel enough fear during this one section," shut up.
• "That massive forehead of his seems so much more attractive now!"
• This is the third flying killer plot in seven games, I'm just saying.
• I'm not super into the "guy pretending to be possessed by a crow demon" plot.

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Tag, hyoe.

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Apollo's power is "magic" that detects when somebody is blatantly lying while Athena's is "psychology" (that the game plays up Blackquill also using) that's used as a tool to find contradictions with the approval of the judge or the cooperation of the testifyee. Plus, in principle anybody can do what Athena does if they had the tech, so it's much less "cheating".

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Also, I'm highly suspicious of the cop for several reasons. I will no be surprised at all if he's guilty.

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NFUN posted...

Apollo's power is "magic" that detects when somebody is blatantly lying while Athena's is "psychology" (that the game plays up Blackquill also using) that's used as a tool to find contradictions with the approval of the judge or the cooperation of the testifyee. Plus, in principle anybody can do what Athena does if they had the tech, so it's much less "cheating".

Eh, alright, I can accept that Blackquill sees things that way, even if I don't really agree with it.

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Anagram posted...

Also, I'm highly suspicious of the cop for several reasons. I will no be surprised at all if he's guilty.

imagine believing an ally of JUSTICE could be a criminal smh

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Tag.

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Yeah, Blackquill disapproves of Apollo's technique because it's a unique power that nobody else has, and thus it's unfair. Athena just studied psychology and developed the Mood Matrix as a result of her studies. It wasn't something only she could have done. She just happened to be the one who did it.

Plus, it was the game's way of making fun of how dumb of a concept Perceive is and thus limiting its use.

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Leonhart4 posted...

Yeah, Blackquill disapproves of Apollo's technique because it's a unique power that nobody else has, and thus it's unfair. Athena just studied psychology and developed the Mood Matrix as a result of her studies. It wasn't something only she could have done. She just happened to be the one who did it.

Plus, it was the game's way of making fun of how dumb of a concept Perceive is and thus limiting its use.

It is also important to understand that this game is in so many ways an apology for AA4 and so I think this was deliberate

I honestly think one of the best decisions DD made was relegating Perceive to investigations, where it actually makes sense for Apollo to use it.
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• Best moment of the game so far is L'Belle's epaulets being cellphones, that took me by surprise.
• Did we really need a repeat of Phoenix presenting evidence to a guy he should clearly not present it to?
• "You've just won a one-way ticket to the top of my most annoying persons ever list, pal." Apollo, this guy is like the eighth most annoying person you've met. Did you forget about Wocky Kitaki?
• Man, the cops in this universe are the worst. At least in previous games, when they missed stuff at a crime scene, it was minor stuff or hidden. Here there's a cup for a statue that's underneath an ottoman and they just didn't see it.
• I just finished the RE2 remake a few days ago, and man, does this folding screen "puzzle" remind me of an RE puzzle or what. Between these two games having silly puzzles in them, I'm forced to assume getting anywhere in Japan requires dealing with nonsense puzzle games.
• Ah, a traditional shinto shrine with an ancient inscription written in English. You can't walk a mile in LA without stumbling onto at least one of these.

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one of the things that made me realize everything was going to be okay again was when Phoenix referenced 5-2's similarity to 2-2

AJ basically pretended the original trilogy didn't exist and that was one of the most offensive things about it to me
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• "I'll remind you that perjury is a very serious crime!" Judge, seriously, is there a single witness in the whole series who didn't lie at least one time? I guess you can argue that Gumshoe and Ema are just wrong a lot, but of the non-expert witnesses, I mean.
• I like how they cut to a wide shot when Blackquill says to restrain Tenma, then a bailiff says he can't, but they don't even try to model a baliff.
• "A giant gold ingot that my nomadic ancestors bestowed upon Nine-Tales Vale." I've decided to just stop making "lol LA and Japan" jokes from this point on, it's just too easy.
• This is an extreme longshot, but I'm throwing it out there anyway: Apollo's bracelet is made of the gold ingot Nine-Tales Vale had stolen.
• Oh my god, this blue wooshy background and piano riff while Apollo reviews the evidence.
• "Mr. L'Belle's hair color is a freaky work of fiction." Man, Apollo has zero tolerance for people who go gray-haired young.
• Tenma is declared innocent, so he puts on his mask while faceless extras throw up the devil horns and cheer him on. Then Athena starts saying something, but because I put the dialogue on auto-scroll and this part doesn't require you to press anything, it gets cut off and I don't see it.

Alright, so. I realized at a certain point that I was wrong about Fulbright. This was when I realized that this game is just trying to do a classic AA story and not do anything subversive or weird or bad like AA4, so it made complete sense to have another Redd White whom you instantly know is guilty, another incompetent detective, and another tiny shinto village, and everything will be as it seems. I predict that Phoenix is going to have none of his 'old wise mentor'ness from AA4 and will just be the same as AA1-3, because that element would play into that. It's a shame because that was the only element of AA4 that I liked. Of course, I may just be projecting, and I'll look like a judgmental dumbass later.

Speaking of which, look. L'Belle. Like, he's scheduling fancy dinners and important meetings throughout the case. How'd he get a job as the aide to the mayor of a backwater town? Don't say he wanted the gold, because he could have only found out about the secret of the gold after getting the job. I know you're going to say that he got this job because it was the only one he could find after he got into debt and it just happened to involve a village with a secret stash of gold, and he was desperate enough to kill for it but not desperate enough to sell his miracle hair dye because he was too full of himself, but like there are just so many implicit leaps of logic you have to go through for this to make sense.

Blackquill is good. I'm not going to rank him yet against the other prosecutors, but so far, he's definitely above Franziska. For reference, my current ranking is Godot > Edgeworth > von Karma > Franziska > Klavier > Payne, which I suspect is common. I don't know if it's worth ranking the Paynes separately.

Aside from all of that, I don't know about this case. I enjoyed it well enough, and I see its appeal as a "back to basics" scenario after AA4 and the AAI games kind of angered people, but absent of that context and looking at it just by itself, I think a lot of its appeal depends on how much you like yokai stuff? It's different when it's Maya on the stand being questioned about her wacky village, both because her powers are actually real and because she's a recurring character the audience actually likes. Like, I'm trying to imagine if people would like this as much if it in the second or third game instead of the fifth. I haven't ranked 5-2 yet, but I can tell right away that it's going to be a solid mid-tier case for me, somewhere around 1-3's level.

In any case, however, it is definitely a breath of fresh air after AA4 and the AAI games, which were either bad or just their own thing that wasn't quite as fun.

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I love how 5-2 throws you the killer at the beginning and then proceeds to completely subvert your expectations left and right from there. Also, I do believe this is the only instance in the series of having the player come up with a scenario that has to be the truth, then immediately cut to investigation where it's like "hey, so uh, that thing you just came up with is deadass wrong...."

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Anagram posted...

Judge, seriously, is there a single witness in the whole series who didn't lie at least one time? I guess you can argue that Gumshoe and Ema are just wrong a lot, but of the non-expert witnesses, I mean.

Bikini! It's part of what makes her a great witness.

Anagram posted...

I predict that Phoenix is going to have none of his 'old wise mentor'ness from AA4

He had no old wise mentorness in AJ! One of my biggest problems with Hobonix actually! All he does is jerk Apollo's chain and very rarely actually helps him beyond 4-1.

Blackquill is awesome! Apollo was the perfect guy to introduce him against, too.
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blackquill's theme is great

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LeonhartFour posted...

He had no old wise mentorness in AJ! One of my biggest problems with Hobonix actually! All he does is jerk Apollo's chain and very rarely actually helps him beyond 4-1.

Well, it's at least clear that they're going for old wise mentorness in AA4, even if the execution is lacking.

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I mean, Phoenix basically does nothing except get hit by a car and tamper with the jury after 4-1, so it's not clear that's what they were going for!
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LeonhartFour posted...

I mean, Phoenix basically does nothing except get hit by a car and tamper with the jury after 4-1, so it's not clear that's what they were going for!

Yeah, it's weird to think that the game doesn't take a hard stance against evidence forgery.

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oh boy I am very excited and I have a feeling you all are too

I like 5-2 a fair bit - I think the villain REALLY leaves something to be desired, the murder plot is pretty forgettable, and I think revealing the killer at the start was totally unnecessary (even though it's obvious that it's L'Belle, it still takes away a lot of possibility space to see the murderer like that). But regardless of that, I think Apollo and Blackquill have a wonderful dynamic in this case and Damian Tenma is probably one of my favorite side characters, I like that the dude just turns out to be a really great guy.

I forgot one minor thing about Blackquill. So, I assume in Japan, he's just a samurai guy who's also a lawyer. But in America, since he's not Japanese, is he just a guy obsessed with Japanese culture? Because that's way funnier.

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Anagram posted...

I forgot one minor thing about Blackquill. So, I assume in Japan, he's just a samurai guy who's also a lawyer. But in America, since he's not Japanese, is he just a guy obsessed with Japanese culture? Because that's way funnier.

Yes, there's been many weeb jokes thrown Blackquill's way.

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Argh, thats the problem with being so late to the AA party, all the jokes have already been made.

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I like Apollo getting bullied for sporting demonic horns.

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Episode 5-3

• The gang hits up Themis Legal Academy after being asked to. So this is set after 5-2 and before 5-1, right? Okay. Lawyer high school, huh? You know what, fine. I'm not going to fight this one.
• I admit, I like the dish named "Culpable Curry." "Guilty Dogs" is lazy, though, at least call them "Guilt Dogs."
• Professor Courte, huh? Sorry, game. I have room in my heart for only one character whose last name involves "Court," and she's not in this game.
• "I oversee the lawyer course here." So... there's only one course dedicated to being a lawyer at lawyer high school? Makes sense.
• Professor Means throws up the Okay hand gesture. Yeesh, and he has chalk white skin. Be careful, guy.
• I like his creepy smile.
• Future judges take the judge course? But I thought judges had to be former lawyers or oh fine whatever.
• Man, Professor Means sure is cool with Phoenix replacing himself with the much less famous Apollo. The "famous prosecutor" mentioned has to be either Edgeworth or Blackquill. I'm guessing Blackquill because Edgeworth's not on the box art, but if it's Edgeworth, I won't be surprised. Although I'm hoping for Winston Payne.
• Phoenix's reaction to finding the dead body of his friend killed by an arrow: "Looks like our meeting's been cancelled." That's some CSI-level **** right there. Jesus Christ, the only way he could have been colder would be "Looks like she's bowed out."
• Phoenix: "It'll be okay as long as we leave the crime scene exactly as we found it." Also Phoenix: "Here's a closed book, let's open it."
• Athena to a dead body as she takes a photo: "Say cheese!"
• Man, this school newspaper is allowed to report on student love lives tabloid-style?
• Apollo arrives and tells us that her body is in the same position as the body in the mock trial. Dun dun dun.
• Juniper is like "there's something wrong with the school, but forget I said that, trust me, it won't come up repeatedly during this case, I'm sure."
• Gonna level with you, I didn't recognize her as the girl from 5-1 until the cough.
• Juniper says "I'm the only living person who knows about the details of the mock trial and I played the defendant, so obviously I'm going to be accused of Courte's murder when this scene is over."
• Stopping for now.

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Anagram posted...

I admit, I like the dish named "Culpable Curry." "Guilty Dogs" is lazy, though, at least call them "Guilt Dogs."

"Guilty Dogs" is an AAI1 reference, actually!

Anagram posted...

Professor Courte, huh? Sorry, game. I have room in my heart for only one character whose last name involves "Court," and she's not in this game.

Justine Courtney is pretty hot.

5-3 is a lot of fun, even if it's cheesy as heck at times (even by Ace Attorney standards)!
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This is technically off-topic, but in AAI2, why was she not Johns biological mother? It would have changed nothing.

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Anagram posted...

This is technically off-topic, but in AAI2, why was she not Johns biological mother? It would have changed nothing.

she would have been absurdly young to be his real mom

and it would kinda give it away immediately that she's his mom if they have the same last name
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By "course", I'm pretty sure they meant major/track/etc, not "class"

It'd be weird if a teacher said "I oversee English 101" rather than say they teach it

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LeonhartFour posted...

she would have been absurdly young to be his real mom

and it would kinda give it away immediately that she's his mom if they have the same last name

Ill accept the second, but theres no reason she couldnt have been like five years older.

NFUN posted...

By "course", I'm pretty sure they meant major/track/etc, not "class"

It'd be weird if a teacher said "I oversee English 101" rather than say they teach it

I was assuming she managed all the judge classes and taught one, while thered be lesser teachers working under her.

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Anagram posted...

Ill accept the second, but theres no reason she couldnt have been like five years older.

I was assuming she managed all the judge classes and taught one, while thered be lesser teachers working under her.

well then... yeah, there's only one lawyer course. it's not like anything other than criminal law exists in this universe, so why need other lawyer courses?

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I like 5-3 a lot, especially due to one of the characters.

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Anagram posted...

Ill accept the second, but theres no reason she couldnt have been like five years older.

Well, that and you can't exactly obfuscate that spoiler by having John have his dad's last name because that's an even bigger spoiler! Plus, Courtney having a secret love child wouldn't be very in-character for her.

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Leonhart4 posted...

Well, that and you can't exactly obfuscate that spoiler by having John have his dad's last name because that's an even bigger spoiler! Plus, Courtney having a secret love child wouldn't be very in-character for her.

Fiiiiine, although it'd be fine for her to have had that one weakness in her past before becoming a judge.

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• Juniper says she was responsible for the stage costumes. They need stage costumes? Doesn't everyone just wear a suit? I guess not. She also shows us a costume that looks suspiciously like Apollo's mom's from the previous game.
• Aw dammit, I was wrong about Edgeworth or Blackquill being the surprise prosecutor.
• I appreciate this mock trial reenactment, it's a cute setup.
• Wooooooah what that is not the Klaiver objection voice from AA4, this voice is clearly way too high-pitched. For shame, localizers.
• So does anyone in the Ace Attorney universe just murder without a crazy plan? The only one I can think of is Frank Sahwit just clubbing a lady.
• How can Professor Means have battled Professor Courte in court if you train to be a judge and not a prosecutor?
• I like how Apollo presenting evidence to Myriam Scuttlebutt uses Athena's voice.
• What the hell is this thing Hugh is carrying?
• I forgot to mention this until now, but why did they remove the ability to inspect things outside of specific scenes? I mean, what's the point of this game if you can't inspect the camera in the detention center?

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Anagram posted...

"I oversee the lawyer course here." So... there's only one course dedicated to being a lawyer at lawyer high school? Makes sense.

The series always uses "lawyer" to refer specifically to defense attorneys for some reason

Anagram posted...

I forgot to mention this until now, but why did they remove the ability to inspect things outside of specific scenes? I mean, what's the point of this game if you can't inspect the camera in the detention center?

Unfortunately yes. They brought it back for the next game, though!

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The only case I really remember from this one is 5-3, which is probably the best case 3 in the series (though it really doesn't have any strong competition, even in isolation it's a great case).

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Yeah, the lack of free investigations is one of DD's biggest flaws, but thankfully, the fans clamored enough about it being gone that they brought it back in SoJ!
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Also, "Dual" Destinies? When we now have three playable characters? Strange.

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