Board 8 > When does Game of Thrones (the show) start to go downhill? [spoilers abound]

(+) Yeah! (+)

Season 5 was noticeably worse than what came before, but I don't think I truly accepted the show was never going to be as good as it was again until I saw Battle of the Bastards.

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As a long time book reader (since way before the show was a thing), I always thought season 3 was the first major and noticeable dip in quality. This season did have its fair share of great moments, yes. But this was the first true departure where the showrunners started to take a lot of liberties with the source material -- namely in how they chose to pace the flow of story and information, as well as what material was cut and which materials were given extra focus -- and these things generally led to an inferior product overall.

I'm not saying season 3 was as bad as later seasons. that's definitely not true. but if you ask me when did the show START to decline, I would say season 3 was really it. this is when it "started."

however, the day the show truly went off the rails, to the point at which there was no longer any safe return, was the change in season 4 regarding tyrion, tysha, jaime, and tywin. this was a culmination of many small decisions to whitewash tyrion's character, and the director's refusal to adhere to the source material on the most flagrant display... in a way that changed the relationship between several characters, the motives for character actions, the very plot itself, for many seasons to come in an unprecedented ripple effect from which there was never any recovery seen. and it marked the time when the directors started to feel more and more comfortable making similar changes to the story. almost always for the worse.

I remember having an immediately negative reaction to this episode, while everyone else was still busy praising it. why wouldn't they? they all loved it, and it was still a great show at the time. but I knew much worse things were to come. season 4 is when I more or less stopped caring about anything that happened in the show, and resigned myself to just watch it for the sake of completing it.

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After reading the topic though I actually agree that the first signs of the show being bad were in season 2. I guess I just didn't consciously notice them at the time. Like, Dany's material is terrible. Yeah. But she is also pretty much the worst thing about the series and so her material being terrible doesn't really stand out to me usually. When you put it into context though it reminded me of how bad and pointless her story in season 2 is.

There's also a lot of nuance that gets lost with several of the plot lines. I guess season 2 is where they started to trim and destroy storylines, while season 3 is where they first started to be more bold about replacing it with their own garbage content.

I also had to check and was surprised to be reminded that "talisa" is introduced in season 2, not season 3. this makes me even more confident that season 2 was the start of the decline. they were already changing storylines, season 3 is just when they started to become even more comfortable and more bold with doing it to more major plots.

edit: while I'm on the subject of the showrunners constantly jacking off tyrion, I was just thinking about some more of my gripes with season 2. wish I could change my vote, honestly...

book comparisons/whining/spoilers:
In the book, using wildfire was cersei's idea. tyrion steals her idea and pats himself on the back for it... then whines like a brat when tywin steals credit for "his" amazing idea. this is way more interesting than tyrion just being the best at everything and coming up with every plan. in fact, most readers don't even catch this because the story is told from tyrion's own POV and he is his own best hype man. this is such a phenomenally interesting narrative concept and a way better showing of a character that is hypocrtical, flawed, and human. the show runners just do not understand what good writing is, so they changed this to make tyrion more "awesome"

in the book, tyrion spends all of book 2 getting clowned by littlefinger and varys without even realizing it. in the show, he is so epic that varys even congratulates him on being so good at playing the game. now you may be thinking, ah, maria, but what if varys is just saying this to manipulate tyrion? unfortunately, in the show, this is not the case. see later seasons where varys continues to view tyrion as an ally and supports and praises him instead of manipulating and using him. the showrunners do not understand the nuance of the varys or littlefinger characters, they only understand that "tyrion smart" because tyrion thinks, from his own point of view, that he is smart.


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Basically, I can see why to bookreaders the show got off the rails in season2. But for a show-only watcher, the decline only became really apparent in season 5. Before then the show was at least consistent with itself and fantastic to watch. I could still accept that some characters were just different (maybe even better in some cases. But thats an opinion and not a fact. Sorry Tywin)

Though even then I had a few scenes to wonder about.. Like Jaime and Cersei in the crypt.
And knowing what happened in the books.
I'd argue that sticking to the source material halfway ruined the character arc for Tyrion more then if they had done it all away.
By now both Tyrion and Shae were way more sympathetic than their book counterparts. But they still drove towards their final scene in the books even though it made far less sense.
Them (for some entirely unknown reason) dropping the Tysha subplot was just the icing on the cake.
I mean the confrontation with Tywin is still a great scene, but its not as great as it could have been.
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Well, yeah, from a book perspective, the divergences really started beginning in Season 2. Some of the shuffling around with Jon's story in it was mostly benign IIRC all the way to the polar opposite in the beginning of the biggest character assassination the show performed with Stannis's entire character and arc.

It's just Season 5 is where the entire bottom started to fall out spectacularly.

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I do feel pretty annoyed with not getting Book Stannis.
Ironically season 5 at first seemed to redeem him a lot. But then you know what happened.

Anyway....

In the book, using wildfire was cersei's idea. tyrion steals her idea and pats himself on the back for it... then whines like a brat when tywin steals credit for "his" amazing idea. this is way more interesting than tyrion just being the best at everything and coming up with every plan

I mean wasnt it so that even in the show, Cersei was the one who first came up with the idea to use wildfire? Or was the boat plan her plan as well?
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Peter Dinklage being phenomenal is part of the reason why the decline isn't as strong before the latter half imo. His says his lines to Tywin in the trial parts to complete perfection, in particular. Actually, a lot of the actors are really good and it's quite the saving grace a lot of times. The actors of Theon, Tywin and The Hound come to mind, but there are others. Even when put in settings they shouldn't be, they do such a good job that it's often still good imo.

Season 2 begins making changes to the source material and then they make more of them as they go. This all sets things up for disaster later on. The lack of Lady Sroneheart, Arianne Martell, Jeyne Poole etc. It just comes back and hits the quality later when they're missing, I'm sure a lot of the missing plots and characters are part of the reasons the later seasons just fall apart completely.

When that's said I still can't bring myself to say the show really began declining that early. They were definitely better showrunners in seasons 2 to 4 than in the first one for instance. Perhaps they begin making bad decisions, but at the same time they become so much better at presenting the good stuff. There's also a fine balance somewhere. You wouldn't make the best possible show by adapting it 1:1. Some characters needed to be cut. POV storytelling is fantastic for the books, but wouldn't have been for the show, changes had to be made. They blew that, but I still think that what worked well in season 2 to 4 upweights what did not, so while they indirectly set up a decline, it just actually start to happen until season 5. They have issues, but the show was never better than that.

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it's been a while since I've seen it, so I decided to double check. and yeah, you're right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wxdrhHlcnQ

cersei does come up with the idea of "raining fire on them from above." looks like I misremembered just how much they took away her credit for the idea. this is subtle, but the book is subtle about it too. tyrion never acknowledges that he got the idea from cersei, not even in his own mind. and you can tell based on their exchange, her long pause, that she's clearly thinking about some kind of secret plan that she hasn't shared with tyrion yet.

so yeah, season 2 is a little bit more faithful than I was thinking in my head. the extent to which tyrion adapts and refines the plan might have changed between the show and book, but they seem to follow the same basic structure (cersei is up to some old bullshit, tyrion goes and confronts the pyromancer, confiscates her supplies because it's too reckless and dangerous... then proceeds to use them in his own plan without giving any credit to cersei). I'm way too lazy to go get my copies of the books, read through them, as well as rewatching the show just to find out.

they still glorify tyrion way too much, totally miss the mark on varys' character, and change littlefinger from a well-liked guy who no one would suspect into the first guy who everyone suspects.


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They glorification of Tyrion isn't all too bad as long as he's in King's Landing considering most of the scenes are adapted from his POV chapters. It's not very clear to the reader either a lot of times that he's not as good at everything as it occasionally seems in his chapters. I didn't get the idea everything was going too well for him. The problem comes later.

It's absolutely horrible how little Tysha/Shae/Tywin affects him from that point forward and all his inner struggles are left out. Then later when it turns out everyone actually thought he was as good as he thinks himself, it becomes worse in retrospect. Tyrion was a way too complex character for them to handle, as it was with many of them.

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For me it is

Season 1=Damn Good
Season 2=Damn Good
Season 3=Great
Season 4=Great
Season 5=Good
Season 6=Decent
Season 7=Bad
Season 8=Atrocious

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It goes 4 > 3 > 2 > 1 > 5 > 6 > 7 > 8

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

How...why...just...like, did ANYONE in production really think this was good?

It was GRRM's ending. There's like 1000 ways it could've been an excellent ending too, they just didn't know how to do it.

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Voted 4 but I think that's probably because I caught up with the books by then, whereas S1-3 I was show-only. Once you've seen the gulf between the two it's hard to unsee it.
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tyrion starting with killing shae/tywin is an abomination.

that said, he sucked in the books too. i don't blame the showrunners for not wanting to deal with ADWD tyrion
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ctesjbuvf posted...

They glorification of Tyrion isn't all too bad as long as he's in King's Landing considering most of the scenes are adapted from his POV chapters. It's not very clear to the reader either a lot of times that he's not as good at everything as it occasionally seems in his chapters. I didn't get the idea everything was going too well for him. The problem comes later.

I think the big issue is that when you closely examine the text, you get a better understanding of the subtle politics that fly above Tyrion's head -- an appreciation for the true masterminds like Littlefinger and Varys.

if you closely examine the show... well... things don't turn out so well for varys OR littlefinger.

so yeah the problem does come later, but this is really the start of the problem. they created 'popcorn' versions of very complicated characters, which did a GREAT job in causing this show to explode in popularity during its peak. show only people were okay with this because they were experiencing the great plot and story for the first time, they didn't notice that the characters had been gutted. the issue is that once the plot and the story were gone, people finally started to question the characters as well. this is why show only people only started to think the show was bad in later seasons.

and maybe they are right. it's all subjective. do you think a show with an interesting story and simplified characters is good? then yes, the early seasons are still good. but if you ask me when did the show START to decline, it's very clear to me -- it started when they started simplifying characters and getting more comfortable changing plots, almost always for the worse.


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If it became clear later on that they had understood characters like Varys or Littlefinger, I wouldn't mind those few subtle hints missing. For all we knew in the early seasons, they could still do that right, lots of small things like that were missing from episode 1. It depends on how you look at it. I'm not really disgreeing with anything, but they could've appeared simple to us then turn out smarter later on and all would be as well as it ever was imo.

To me, it's more the thought of thinking the show had somewhere to decline from.

The first season was a lot more faithful to the books, but watching it was so dull imo. They really couldn't capture the magic of the book then. So many scenes were boring despite the book scene being incredible. The world and characters are still interesting because the source material is so incredible, but being true to the books doesn't make it good. I thought they got a lot better at doing that as the early seasons progressed, which to me made them better than the first despite setting up for disaster.

I mean, it's not like the first season didn't do some stuff well too. They casted most of the characters really nicely, Osha in particular might very well be better in the show, but they began to remove characters already then too. They also killed off someone they plainly needed later on. I don't enjoy the simplifications of a bunch of characters, but I can't wrap my head around things declining after season 1 except maybe Daenarys' storyline simply because they already dropped the ball with that next season.

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I can agree with that. Doesn't help that the dude who plays Tywin was one of the best actors on the show. I cannot forgive the show runners for how they caused Littlefinger and Varys to act after that event. It's like Season 1-3 and Season 6-8 Varys and Littlefinger are entirely different people. Of course, this is because they are, as far as I'm concerned, fanfiction spin-offs Krow and Tinyfinger. Would Littlefinger sacrifice a valuable pawn like Sansa potentially-the-last Stark to a well-reputed monster like Ramsay Bolton? Heavens no, but Tinyfinger is dumb enough to pull that crap. Would Varys actually attempt regicide in the midst of her most rabid followers? HA! Only Krow would be that brazen!

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Here's my perspective

I read the books long before the show even went into production. I thought they were pretty good, but I didn't love them like most people. Definitely great world building, so many moving parts that were kept track of so well, All of the scheming and maneuvering were great, with lots of characters I loved (I distinctly remember raving to my brother about how cool the Red Viper was). But there was a lot I wasn't too fond of. I don't enjoy especially grimdark were horrible things happen just to happen, and the sex scenes were something I just didn't enjoy. They often brought me out of it. All in all, I liked reading the books a lot, but they were not my favourite series.

I LOVED the show. The actors brought the characters a life that they didn't have for me in the books, especially the Stark children. I thought it took things to a new level pretty much at every turn. Mysteries were set up and paid off, fights felt very visceral, the acting is so good everywhere. I didn't really care about the Hound in the books, but by the Blackwater he was a star of the show. Even small characters like Bronn and Shae would get added and fit into the cast effortlessly. Even really minor characters like Dolorous Edd (one of my book favs) were being done well.

So, I read the books first and thought they were a 7 or 8 out of 10, and I thought the show was a 10/10

Then as seasons went on, the show was losing some luster. Daenerys had such a strong season 1, she became khaleesi in everyones hearts. But they didn't really use her well in most seasons. Qarth was introduced well but the climax was super lackluster, and it didn't feel like a lot of Dany's victories were earned. The show started adding stuff that wasn't in the books, like the prostitute present in a lot of scenes. The scenes were often good, but she wasn't. I guess I saw these as cracks. The show continued to overall be good with tons of many great moments, like the Red Wedding, VIper vs the Mountain, I'm going to eat every chicken in this room, etc.

Then, in season 5, the show caught up to the books. I don't remember specific issues I had at the time, but I remember thinking there were a lot of cracks in the stuff was doing that diverged from the books, and that characters were changing their positions on things to suit what the plot needed to do in that moment, and not because that was what they would do, and I didn't like it. And that was as someone who didn't even like the book that much compared to the show. It's not like I care if they do things differently... but the things they do differently need to be good, and that isn't how I felt at the time. I still really liked the show, but I was concerned that it wouldn't stay that way going forward.

So, out of concern for these cracks and a fear of spoilers from the books, I paused watching. I didn't really think I would stop forever... I figured I would pick up watching again. But I didn't. And before I knew it... the finale was here and everyone was SUPER MAD about it

So out of a whim to plug myself into the zeitgeist, I watched the penultimate episode when it aired. The devastation of kings landing was breathtaking - just beautifully shot. from the perspective of the people on the ground to the overall city, the people who made that should be proud. But I didn't like anything else. Cleganebowl was really pathetic, and I thought that was a disappointing end to Cersei and Jaime. Both because it was a weak end for Cersei, who I thought had been struggling in the show for awhile before I stopped watching. Similar to Dany, Cersei is generally just yelling a lot and demanding things instead of using her limited guile to earn it, and it seems she's still in that place at the very end. Jaime is in the midst of a redemption arc in the books, but it seems that evidently goes nowhere.

And Dany.... the Mad Queen is certainly a possible end for her. One that I would be definitely saddened by if it happens, but one that could be done really well if built up to properly. The Dany I left in Season 5 was portrayed as a saviour and didn't seem headed this way, and my book Dany stuck with the Meereenese Knot is NOWHERE close to going that route - her compassion for the people and unwillingness to put them in danger is a defining trait. So I wondered how they developed her to get to this point.... and the resounding answer I found on the internet was that they didn't. They just flipped her switch to Mad Queen coming into that episode... which is what I saw starting to happen to characters in season 5. I didn't bother to watch the finale.

So.... if my experience with the show is something to go by, I think Season 5 is probably the turning point where it started moving downhill.


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