Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 302: No Justice, No Peace

(+) Yeah! (+)

Mr Lasastryke posted...

why do i have to remember something that's wrong

Prove it. Statistics don't support your assertion.

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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1268688013791506450?s=21

So much for the theory that she was only allowed to make those votes because the Republicans had it covered without her

Or at the very least, so much for that being the case any longer

Nobody told her Trump doesn't care about facts, only optics.

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I mean "good cops" and "bad cops" isn't exactly an agreed upon definition I don't think statistics would support any claim on the percentages either way unless your definition takes the absolutist position that they are all good or all bad.

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yeah, if statistics exist that support the assertion that a miniscule amount of cops are bad people, i'd love to see them.

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xp1337 posted...

I mean "good cops" and "bad cops" isn't exactly an agreed upon definition I don't think statistics would support any claim on the percentages either way unless your definition takes the absolutist position that they are all good or all bad.

Well, let's take an example I will shamelessly take from a topic about Breaking Bad I just looked into.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_Schrader

Good cop or bad cop?

Bad Cop:

Assaulted a civilian
Involved in a work related shooting (multiple).
Did work outside the bounds of work illegally.
Didn't report a druglord because he thought it might somehow come back on himself.

Good Cop:
Fought to clean up the streets of drugs.

No brainer bad cop?


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I feel like that would be a bad cop even by your standards
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thank fucking god Chris Hayes now addressing the bullshit from De Blasio and Cuomo denying the ongoing police brutality

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Trump largely done with full sentences it seems.

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Okay.

https://training-day.fandom.com/wiki/Jake_Hoyt

Bad Cop:

Assaulted a civilian trying to commit rape
Drank on the job.
Took drugs on the job.
Abetted in the theft of money with a fake warrant.
Abetted in the murder of a man and didn't report his fellow officers for the murder and theft.
Hunted down an officer and assaulted him, discharged gun in vicinity of civlians, etc.

Good Cop:
Saved a girl from being raped.
Outted a bad cop (and presumably others afterwards)

Good or bad?

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OK first, off pulling examples from fiction just goes to show where your mind is.

Second, no SHIT he's a bad cop.

I dunno why we're playing this game, but I'd say Hank was a bad cop (DEA, but I get your point.)

He assaulted Jesse, violated the law, and his flying solo on trying to take down Heisenberg solo (well +Gomez) likely led to their deaths since they weren't telling anyone else what was going on which let like $80m go to Todd's uncle and their gang.

still was rooting hard for him and jesse in the second half of season 5 because walt was even worse

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Corrik is basically one step from saying

"So there's this bad cop. He beats inmates, accepts bribes and plants evidence. But one time, he rescued a kitten from a tree. Is he still a bad cop?"

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GildedFool posted...

Corrik is basically one step from saying

"So there's this bad cop. He beats inmates, accepts bribes and plants evidence. But one time, he rescued a kitten from a tree. Is he still a bad cop?"

Actually, I am not saying that at all. What I am asking is what do you consider a bad cop? Many people would watch Breaking Bad and say Hank was a good person. Many would watch Training Day and say Jake Hoyt was the hero.

These are definitely shades of gray characters.

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Many people watch Fight Club and think Tyler Durden is a cool dude, too.

These people are fucking morons.

And, for the record, Jakyl is right. I do consider Schrader a bad cop.

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Yes, Jake Hoyt is *bad cop*.

You don't stop being lbelled as bad because you're not literally Hitler.

You don't get excused all the bad things you do because sometimes you do good things.

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Corrik7 posted...

Actually, I am not saying that at all. What I am asking is what do you consider a bad cop? Many people would watch Breaking Bad and say Hank was a good person. Many would watch Training Day and say Jake Hoyt was the hero.

These are definitely shades of gray characters.

This is exactly the problem. Fictional universes often glorify police and gloss over the bad things they do, because audiences want to root for the fictional hero. This causes problems because you get situations where the heroic cop in fiction is WILDLY bad if you step back and imagine them in the context of the real world.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Many people watch Fight Club and think Tyler Durden is a cool dude, too.

These people are fucking morons.

more recently, fucking Tiger King

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See, I would probably disagree on Jake Hoyt being bad.

Though, you might argue Jake is a good representation of what good cops might go through when in the line of duty in regards to bad cops.

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The only good cop is Robocop.

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These aren't good representations of anything because they're character action and thriller movies/shows. They're literally worthless for the conversation.

You using them as examples of anything even tengentially related to real cop standards just shows you have no business even being in the discussion.

Corrik7 posted...

Abetted in the murder of a man and didn't report his fellow officers for the murder and theft.

I watched Training Day like 15 years ago and don't remember shit from it but this right here is far and away the worst thing on either list presented and is both an automatic "bad cop and should be in prison" and also emblematic of what posters in this topic have been trying to convey to you - when cops are covering for other "bad cops" that makes them a bad cop as well. They are placing their sense of fraternity over that of maintaining a civil society - which, y'know, is their job.

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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1268688013791506450?s=21

So much for the theory that she was only allowed to make those votes because the Republicans had it covered without her

Or at the very least, so much for that being the case any longer

That followup
What a ringing endorsement for TBD!

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some people think team america is an awesome puppet action movie about a patriotic police force instead of a satire

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xp1337 posted...

I watched Training Day like 15 years ago and don't remember shit from it but this right here is far and away the worst thing on either list presented and is both an automatic "bad cop and should be in prison" and also emblematic of what posters in this topic have been trying to convey to you - when cops are covering for other "bad cops" that makes them a bad cop as well. They are placing their sense of fraternity over that of maintaining a civil society - which, y'know, is their job.

Re watch it and tell me what you think.

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So I entered this topic to talk about one of my Facebook friends' believing in public execution of all four of the cops responsible for Floyd's death. (Who's also a hardcore Republican that believes in the use of the N-word)

And here's Corrik posting about fictional cops and their morality in comparison to the current situation. I honestly don't know which is worse.

Edit: Sidenote, I rewatched The Departed last night, such a great movie and is pretty topical, I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it yet

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

some people think team america is an awesome puppet action movie about a patriotic police force instead of a satire

That BLEW MY MIND when I heard that people missed the point

Same with Starship Troopers the movie but even worse
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Man I'm not rewatching a movie for this argument! Just based on your own list there that single bullet point has me convinced that he was a bad cop! You basically have as a bullet point "accessory to murder!"

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

These aren't good representations of anything because they're character action and thriller movies/shows. They're literally worthless for the conversation.

You using them as examples of anything even tengentially related to real cop standards just shows you have no business even being in the discussion.

Actually, I think considering people as gray instead of infallible or terrible is a lot smarter. Even the best people in the world can make mistakes. They are human. Or have a bad day. Even the worst people in the world can do a good deed.

If you expect a perfect police force that never makes any mistakes, then it is an impossible standard to achieve. That doesn't mean that mistakes shouldn't have consequences. Or that we shouldn't hope for the perfect response / behavior. But, I think to disqualify someone from being a good person for not being perfect is a bit silly also.

No, I am not saying that we should excuse police for their actions when they are wrong. I am saying the police are bad people hammer is extreme.

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Starship Troopers is the absolute worst of them all for me, alongside Robocop. The idea of watching a Verehoven movie and coming out think "man, what a cool action movie, super bad ass!" is just...holy shit.

Obviously Robocop is the WORSE offendor of this, but Starship Troopers is more personal.

xp1337 posted...

Man I'm not rewatching a movie for this argument! Just based on your own list there that single bullet point has me convinced that he was a bad cop! You basically have as a bullet point "accessory to murder!"

Well, if you don't want to, you don't have to. I thought it would have been fun for you and me to see if you still felt that way upon rewatching it or not. To double down on that with fresh details or to see if you change your opinion or not. Your choice though.

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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1268688013791506450?s=21

So much for the theory that she was only allowed to make those votes because the Republicans had it covered without her

Or at the very least, so much for that being the case any longer

Don't you remember? Trump tried to bully her to vote for his healthcare bill by threatening to withhold federal funds to Alaska unless she voted for it. She called his bluff and voted against it. Now Trump is taking his revenge.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Starship Troopers is the absolute worst of them all for me, alongside Robocop. The idea of watching a Verehoven movie and coming out think "man, what a cool action movie, super bad ass!" is just...holy shit.

Obviously Robocop is the WORSE offendor of this, but Starship Troopers is more personal.

Starship Troopers is a literal classic.

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https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1268622750463062017?s=21

Trump having an EXCEPTIONALLY TOUGH TIME thinking about anything outside of the frame of how it affects him today
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Corrik7 posted...

Starship Troopers is a literal classic.

Yes, it is, just probably not for the reasons you think it is!

Watching a movie is just too much of a time commitment, especially if I wanted it done in a timely matter... like the next 12-24 hours. lol.

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Corrik I feel like you are trying to prove that it's possible for good cops to exist. That isn't the issue.

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Robocop is super obvious with its satire. Not many people go "man what an awesome action movie" because the action boils down to a man in an awkward suit walking slowly towards criminals.

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Not only is there a huge difference between making mistakes and savagely beating/outright killing innocent people

But the only reason Hank and Hoyt are the heroes is because they're up against characters specifically written to be worse people by a very large margin.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Robocop is super obvious with its satire. Not many people go "man what an awesome action movie" because the action boils down to a man in an awkward suit walking slowly towards criminals.

Man you have a lot more faith in people than you should. A LOT of people think Robocop is "fucking radical", and talk about how cool it was when he shot that dude in the dick over and over again.

Don't forget the sequels. And the toys. And the children's cartoon show.

My favorite thing about chris cuomo is how he constantly tells his correspondents who are getting tear gassed/pushed around/fireworked how to do their job and how what they are saying is wrong every two seconds

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If all the protesters were Clarence Boddicker I'd perfectly fine throwing them repeatedly through windows.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Man you have a lot more faith in people than you should. A LOT of people think Robocop is "fucking radical", and talk about how cool it was when he shot that dude in the dick over and over again.

Don't forget the sequels. And the toys. And the children's cartoon show.

We made a shit-ton of 80s R-rated movies into kids shows and toys.

The fact that the remake flopped was proof that Robocop is largely loved for its satire. They made a movie with the satire greatly reduced and better action scenes but no one showed up.

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Also RB2 is better than people think. RB3 was hot garbage.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Corrik I feel like you are trying to prove that it's possible for good cops to exist. That isn't the issue.

I hold that stance is obvious (though ACAB says not) and the majority are. You don't read front page CNN sensationalized when cops do a good job because it is standard and expected. Ain't nobody going to click an article hearing how another cop did a standard or good job.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Yes, it is, just probably not for the reasons you think it is!

*Rolls eyes*

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So many people I know think Full Metal Jacket is about how badass the U.S. Military is :/
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how many times has this been explained to you? a cop can do a good job and not be corrupt and still be a bastard. like xp said, it's not their work inherently, it's their fraternity and covering up for each other or the profession in general, enabling the bad cops to be bad

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xp1337 posted...

Watching a movie is just too much of a time commitment, especially if I wanted it done in a timely matter... like the next 12-24 hours. lol.

Ahhh. I watch movies all the time. Training Day is great. I watch it a couple times a year at least.

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Corrik7 posted...

Okay.

https://training-day.fandom.com/wiki/Jake_Hoyt

Bad Cop:

Assaulted a civilian trying to commit rape
Drank on the job.
Took drugs on the job.
Abetted in the theft of money with a fake warrant.
Abetted in the murder of a man and didn't report his fellow officers for the murder and theft.
Hunted down an officer and assaulted him, discharged gun in vicinity of civlians, etc.

Good Cop:
Saved a girl from being raped.
Outted a bad cop (and presumably others afterwards)

Good or bad?

I feel like this isn't really a fair representation of things. For one, the bad cop specifically tries to make Jake murder the man/take part in the robbery, and Jake outright refuses, to which then the bad cop kills the man himself. Jake then grabs the gun and has a standoff with the bad cops, until they basically reveal that they can easily make it look like he committed the murder by himself since they had drugged him with PCP previously. The rest of the movie takes place in the exact same day, so there's no telling if he actually would've reported them or not before he ends up just going after the bad cop himself.

If things were exactly as you presented them, then yes, Jake is a bad cop. In the movie itself, it's a lot more murky because he specifically does not go along with the murder or even be silent about it until they threaten to frame him on the spot, and then he turns against the corruption like an hour later. Thus, trying to use this example as you're using it is pretty dishonest, as half of the events are not quite as you describe them.

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