Current Events > They should tear down statues of the founding fathers while they're at it.

(+) Yeah! (+)

They exploited black people, using them to run their farms & plantations, raped black people, beat black people. They separated black people from their families. They thought of black people as inferior.

And they also thought of Native Americans as inferior and for two centuries lead a campaign of killing them or driving them from their homes, it was genocide.

But not all Founding Fathers thought/did that stuff, some were good!

Those Founding Fathers were basically the good cops who let the bad cops get away with s***, which means theyre not good cops.

Put their statues in museums, storage, or destroyed.

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Yes, and in 200 years when it's discovered how many of us watch pornography online, our statues will also be ripped down.

Let me be clear about this. Porn and slavery are not equivalent.
Future peoples living in luxury and having the ability to look back at a brutal past with eyes of superior privilege will always be equivalent, so long as time rolls on.

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Miletus posted...

Yes, and in 200 years when it's discovered how many of us watch pornography online, our statues will also be ripped down.

I don't think so. unless something really bad happens in society, I think 200 years from now, nobody will care if you watched porn. we will probably be considered prudes by the people 200 years from now if anything

Zikten posted...

I don't think so. unless something really bad happens in society, I think 200 years from now, nobody will care if you watched porn. we will probably be considered prudes by the people 200 years from now if anything

I'd say eating meat would be a better parallel. It's entirely possible the sensibilities of people two hundred years from now could see any killing of animals as just as bad as killing humans.

Gotta erase history

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I see both sides of it tbh.
On one hand, morality absolutely does change with time. And I can't see myself caring enough about a particular statue to destroy it. That effort could be spent doing something else.
On the other hand, statues are kinda weird when ya think about it and I can't see myself caring about one being destroyed either. Especially not one of a slave trader.

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Miletus posted...

Yes, and in 200 years when it's discovered how many of us watch pornography online, our statues will also be ripped down.

But, uh, what if I watched George Floyd's porno?

Its only a matter of time, and I won't have any problems with it. Hhopefully future generations will be as such that they remember our aristocratic history as the horror story it was, and won't want or need statues of piss drinking rich people.

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Ok, I dont give a shit.

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At least 3 of the presidents we have on money bills owned slaves. And two of them were founding fathers.

Personally I don't think it matters, most people sent educated enough to know the difference. I think it's how children are raised that matters. A statue may ignite someone here or there. But not on the scale people think. We are merely erasing history to make it less interesting and more biased than its ever been.

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Agreed
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Zikten posted...

I don't think so. unless something really bad happens in society, I think 200 years from now, nobody will care if you watched porn. we will probably be considered prudes by the people 200 years from now if anything

Theres no way of really knowing that, one way or another. Go ask those boomers, whom everyone hates on, if they ever thought the views they supported and took for granted as teenagers would ever be reviled by their grandkids. And then you want to throw in a 200 year chasm of time?

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Tear down those Lincoln statues as well, he wanted to put all freed slaves on ships and deport them.

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Anticyclonic posted...

I see both sides of it tbh.
On one hand, morality absolutely does change with time.

Theres letters & writings left behind by the Founding Fathers. They knew that slavery was wrong & immoral and did it anyways or stood by as it happened.

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2/3 of the Founding Fathers owned slaves.
All freedoms they talked about were for the white man, all this talk about how they deep down felt that it was wrong with slavery but kept doing it feels like changed history to make them look better.

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Foppe posted...

2/3 of the Founding Fathers owned slaves.

Pretty much all of them but Franklin, who profiteered from it anyway.
John Adams probably didn't own slaves, but he was an utter ass in several other ways.

Sounds good to me.

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Questionmarktarius posted...

Pretty much all of them but Franklin, who profiteered from it anyway.
John Adams probably didn't own slaves, but he was an utter ass in several other ways.

I thought both Adams were so against it so they had none?

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Foppe posted...

I thought both Adams were so against it so they had none?

I need to look that up.
John Adams was still a complete ass.

Wikipedia for the win:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves

Slave owning was common among early presidents; of the first twelve, only John Adams (2) and his son John Quincy Adams (6) never owned slaves, although two of the others (Martin Van Buren and William Henry Harrison) did not own slaves while serving as president.

Questionmarktarius posted...

I need to look that up.
John Adams was still a complete ass.

Wikipedia for the win:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves

>Presidents
That explains why it doesnt mention Oliver Ellsworth, Robert Treat Paine, Thomas Paine and Roger Sherman.
Alexander Hamilton had no slaves as well, but he got married into a family of slave owners so I guess he can kinda be placed on both sides.

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Foppe posted...

>Presidents
That explains why it doesnt mention Oliver Ellsworth, Robert Treat Paine, Thomas Paine and Roger Sherman.
Alexander Hamilton had no slaves as well, but he got married into a family of slave owners so I guess he can kinda be placed on both sides.

Huh.
What else do you know?

I'm assuming most of the Declaration signers were slave-owners, but I don't know which ones offhand. Let me know if you do.

Hey tc, if you move on from statues and decide you want to get rid of your money with racist founders on it, just send it to me!

I'll put it in a... Uh... museum, yeah!

iPhone_7 posted...

Theres letters & writings left behind by the Founding Fathers. They knew that slavery was wrong & immoral and did it anyways or stood by as it happened.

You are not wrong, although what you said also applies to all of us. There is literally still slavery going on as we speak. Yet none of us is doing shit about it. A few people are. Theyve given up their normal lives to risk getting attacked, killed or imprisoned, and losing what little they have. Ive made a decision to not rock the boat because I like my comfortable life and dont want to endanger my family. The Founding Fathers wrestled with their conflicting views because slavery was mostly accepted, even if the brutality wasnt. We dont have that excuse. And we cant justify our inaction by saying we dont have any power or resources right now, because weve recently seen thousands mobilize all over the world for a cause they did take seriously.

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Do not fuck with the Fred Rogers statue

I do think people should not worship the founding fathers

They weren't Gods they were men

Racist, sexist arrogant men who had many flaws.

Celebrate what they did but don't deny the cruelty. Donald Trump is more progressive than all of the founding fathers

Bare that in mind
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Questionmarktarius posted...

I need to look that up.
John Adams was still a complete ass.

John Adams has extremely against slavery and represented slaves/black people in court pro bono.

Abigail was a suffragette and abolitionist at that.

John Adams may have been an ass but at least he didnt OWN PEOPLE

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Kastrada posted...

John Adams may have been an ass but at least he didnt OWN PEOPLE

fair.

Well they should TC, you're right.

And while we're at it, get George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, and Andrew Jackson off our bills too. Grade A pieces of human garbage.

We should do

$1: John Adams
$5: Abraham Lincoln
$10: Theodore Roosevelt
$20: Harriet Tubman
$100: Benjamin Franklin

Penny: Abraham Lincoln
Nickel: John F. Kennedy or MLK
Dime: FDR (hesitant on this one because of the internment camps though, I would be happy with replacing him with say Jimmy Carter instead for his humanitarian efforts)
Quarter: Susan B. Anthony

There were many founding fathers and inspirational figures that helped shape the positive sides of America's history. It just so happens we chose to celebrate most of the garbage ones. We need to focus on the ones on the correct side of history instead of the ones that were only known for "leading" the country.
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it makes more sense to not put any person on money or give anyone a statue. No one can conform to the morality of the future.

For all we know, eating animals will be considered immoral in 100 years.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Donald Trump is more progressive than all of the founding fathers

Someone sig this

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seqntenialbeast posted...

it makes more sense to not put any person on money or give anyone a statue. No one can conform to the morality of the future.

For all we know, eating animals will be considered immoral in 100 years.

I think we can all agree that anyone is pro human rights has a way better chance of being fared better in the future than the ones that were against them even in their own time. This is why Lincoln and Franklin are still praised.
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Why stop there? Let's just research every Human in history that did great things and if they did something that we look on with a baleful eye by today's standards we should just eliminate them from history forever

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Vyrulisse posted...

Why stop there? Let's just research every Human in history that did great things and if they did something that we look on with a baleful eye by today's standards we should just eliminate them from history forever

who has been eliminated from history so far?

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Vyrulisse posted...

Why stop there? Let's just research every Human in history that did great things and if they did something that we look on with a baleful eye by today's standards we should just eliminate them from history forever

I think the bar has been set for being on the side of human rights and unsurprisingly, the good natured figures have stood the test of time.

If animals start gaining intelligent sentience and start to run their own governments/integrate into society, maybe we can start bitching about them. But since that's not going to happen for millions of years, I'm going to consider the handwaving as handwaving.
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ThisGuyAreSick posted...

We should do

$1: John Adams
$5: Abraham Lincoln
$10: Theodore Roosevelt
$20: Harriet Tubman
$100: Benjamin Franklin

Penny: Abraham Lincoln
Nickel: John F. Kennedy
Dime: FDR
Quarter: Susan B. Anthony

This... fuck it, I like this.

Keep Jefferson on the $2.
Keep the Kennedy on the half-dollar.
Thomas Sowell on the nickel.

ThisGuyAreSick posted...

I think the bar has been set for being on the side of human rights and unsurprisingly, the good natured figures have stood the test of time.

If animals start gaining intelligent sentience and start to run their own governments/integrate into society, maybe we can start bitching about them. But since that's not going to happen for millions of years, I'm going to consider the handwaving as handwaving.

He doesn't know... Tee hee.

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Also I'm curious to see what someone would consider "a baleful eye by today's standards". You have to consider that you're going to have to equate its immorality relative to slavery and other bigoted shit. Good luck doing that.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

This... fuck it, I like this.

Keep Jefferson on the $2.
Keep the Kennedy on the half-dollar.
Thomas Sowell on the nickel.

Do they still make the $2 anymore? I thought they were just considered legal tender that isn't produced anymore.

If that's not the case, replace him with MLK
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ThisGuyAreSick posted...

If that's not the case, replace him with MLK

I'm not opposed to a MLK $2

Hm.

Are they guilty of crimes if their deeds became criminal a century or two after they passed away?

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Ilishe posted...

Hm.

Are they guilty of crimes if their deeds became criminal a century or two after they passed away?

Also I'm curious to see what someone would consider "a baleful eye by today's standards". You have to consider that you're going to have to equate its immorality relative to slavery and other bigoted shit. Good luck doing that.

In other words, pick something immoral that any of these figures preached that can be compared relatively to an abuse of human rights. Good luck.
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ThisGuyAreSick posted...

I think we can all agree that anyone is pro human rights has a way better chance of being fared better in the future than the ones that were against them even in their own time. This is why Lincoln and Franklin are still praised.

you're delusional. I've heard vegans say eating meat is the holocaust of our times. They unironically say that. I don't think people who commit genocide will be looked upon positively because they are slightly less evil than someone else.

I only picked eating meat as an example, because that's a trend we see increasing in our time. Who knows what the future holds.

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ThisGuyAreSick posted...

Do they still make the $2 anymore? I thought they were just considered legal tender that isn't produced anymore.

The down payment on my house was paid with an absurd hoard of US two-dollar bills.

seqntenialbeast posted...

you're delusional. I've heard vegans say eating meat is the holocaust of our times. They unironically say that. I don't think people who commit genocide will be looked upon positively because they are slightly less evil than someone else.

I only picked eating meat as an example, because that's a trend we see increasing in our time. Who knows what the future holds.

And when the time comes where eating meat/killing animals is considered immorally equal relative to an abuse of human rights, then we can start throwing some extra statues into the water.

As for right now, let's stop deflecting when we tell you the guy in the tricorne hat was a piece of garbage.

Questionmarktarius posted...

The down payment on my house was paid with an absurd hoard of US two-dollar bills.

Right it's legal tender that's still in circulation but I was talking about printed by the treasury. Anyway I looked it up. Apparently they stopped this year. Rad.
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Morality is not objective, every ideal we hold today we only hold because of the society we were born in. We were indoctrinated.
Men throughout history freely killed without guilt. Hunted, conquested, battled. If you go back 300 years, not one person alive would be considered non-evil by today's standards. What makes you think that won't be the case for us?

The only things immune to morality are animals, we don't hold them accountable because they are too stupid. We are better off building statues of eagles or putting turkeys on our money, than a person who symbolizes tomorrow's despair

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ThisGuyAreSick posted...

And when the time comes where eating meat/killing animals is considered immorally equal relative to an abuse of human rights, then we can start throwing some extra statues into the water.

why even build them?

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ThisGuyAreSick posted...

Right it's legal tender that's still in circulation but I was talking about printed by the treasury. Anyway I looked it up. Apparently they stopped this year. Rad.

MLK $2, though.
Why not?

So subjectively, what has Abraham Lincoln or MLK done that can be considered immorally equal relative to an abuse of human rights?

I'll wait.

Questionmarktarius posted...

MLK $2, though.
Why not?

If they continued production on it sure.

seqntenialbeast posted...

why even build them?

They exist already?
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ThisGuyAreSick posted...

So subjectively, what has Abraham Lincoln or MLK done that can be considered immorally equal relative to an abuse of human rights?

I'm sure even MLK will be cancelled.
https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-tapes-allege-mlk-watched-rape-2019-5

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