Current Events > Innocent until proven guilty is not a good social policy and never will be.

(+) Yeah! (+)

It works legally, but that's it. If multiple people make accusations against someone and your only response is that people should trust them until there's proof you are definitely in the wrong.

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That's why we have systems like bail and pre-trial jailtime.

Innocent until proven guilty is an incredibly important cornerstone of a fair legal system. One that unfortunately has failed minorities time and time again. Not because of it, but because they've been denied it.


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Shouldn't it go both ways? You can't by default assume the accusations are lies either.

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Bring on the Cheka murder squads for wrongthink!

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Burden of proof lying on the claimant is literally the backbone of rational thought. To have a system that is not innocent until proven guilty can only be irrational.

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Darmik posted...

Shouldn't it go both ways? You can't by default assume the accusations are lies either.

Accusations come with the burden of proof. To accuse is to attempt to inflict a wound of consequences on another person. In doing so, you had best be prepared to prove it.

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DarkRoast posted...

That's why we have systems like bail and pre-trial jailtime.

Innocent until proven guilty is an incredibly important cornerstone of a fair legal system. One that unfortunately has failed minorities time and time again. Not because of it, but because they've been denied it.

I'm not discussing its use in a legal system, but in social interactions among people.

Darmik posted...

Shouldn't it go both ways? You can't by default assume the accusations are lies either.

In general, the best policy is to treat everyone who makes a claim seriously unless you have actual evidence against the claims. Believing them doesn't mean condemning the accused. But when several accusations are made against the same person, if you're still insisting innocent until proven guilty, I'm judging you as much as them.

What if there are multiple people defending the accused?
What if the accused person is someone who has a good reputation and good character?
What if the accuser has a bad reputation and a history of false claims?

Guilty until proven innocent was what they used during the Salem witch trials. Many came forward to claim others were witches or evil. If you died from the test you were innocent, if you lived they burned you for being guilty.

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RadiantAdolin posted...

It works legally, but that's it. If multiple people make accusations against someone and your only response is that people should trust them until there's proof you are definitely in the wrong.

are you serious man? so you'd fit right in during the Witch Trials.

RadiantAdolin posted...

In general, the best policy is to treat everyone who makes a claim seriously unless you have actual evidence against the claims

RadiantAdolin posted...

But when several accusations are made against the same person, if you're still insisting innocent until proven guilty, I'm judging you as much as them.

Holy shit, bro. That's dangerous thinking, for real. The first part is fine; accusers should be given the right to accuse, but in the latter it seems like you're trying to encourage mob mentality.

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RadiantAdolin posted...

I'm not discussing its use in a legal system, but in social interactions among people.

In general, the best policy is to treat everyone who makes a claim seriously unless you have actual evidence against the claims. Believing them doesn't mean condemning the accused. But when several accusations are made against the same person, if you're still insisting innocent until proven guilty, I'm judging you as much as them.

So with all these witch hunts that have been going on lately, youd be fine in supporting them since there are several accusations against a single person or group?

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Holy shit, bro. That's dangerous thinking, for real. The first part is fine; accusers should be given the right to accuse, but in the latter it seems like you're trying to encourage mob mentality.

Nah. I'm not saying you should go on fully attacking them, but there's a certain point you should be viewing them with a lot of skepticism and distaste.

Oh wait novice account. Im sorry for feeding.

BroodRyu posted...

So with all these witch hunts that have been going on lately, youd be fine in supporting them since there are several accusations against a single person or group?

What witch hunts?

RadiantAdolin posted...

Nah. I'm not saying you should go on fully attacking them, but there's a certain point you should be viewing them with a lot of skepticism and distaste.

At which point? You're not making any sense. At what point does a quantity of accusations suddenly outweigh the need for evidence?

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The idea of someone's entire reptuation and legacy being destroyed on a mere suspicision isn't good.

I am so glad the revolutionary types are starting to say what they really want

i mean this is likely a troll topic but its so obvious why innocent until guilty is important lmao think about it real hard, I know you can do it

Gobstoppers12 posted...

At which point? You're not making any sense. At what point does a quantity of accusations suddenly outweigh the need for evidence?

Take shit that's happening with Twitch right now. A lot of streamers are having maybe a half dozen independent people accusing streamers. At that point, asking for more evidence is insulting to the accusers. You don't need enough for a legal trial to be certain there's some shit going on.

It is a great social policy if it was applied to all fairly and equally. And if the standard of reasonable doubt was applied equally and fairly

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Slayerblade11 posted...

The idea of someone's entire reptuation and legacy being destroyed on a mere suspicision isn't good.

When there are multiple independent claims of similar incidents, we're beyond "mere suspicion".

RadiantAdolin posted...

What witch hunts?

Its a joke guys

either that or TC isnt smart at all (like at all)

or just not paying attention to anything and playing too many video games haha

DarkRoast posted...

That's why we have systems like bail

Ah, another benefit for the wealthy where wealth shouldn't be a factor.

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RadiantAdolin posted...

Take shit that's happening with Twitch right now. A lot of streamers are having maybe a half dozen independent people accusing streamers. At that point, asking for more evidence is insulting to the accusers. You don't need enough for a legal trial to be certain there's some shit going on.

you really arent thinking this through at all

Romes187 posted...

you really arent thinking this through at all

So prove me wrong then.

RadiantAdolin posted...

It works legally, but that's it. If multiple people make accusations against someone and your only response is that people should trust them until there's proof you are definitely in the wrong.

So I and a five other people decided to just accuse you of doing something, you should be assumed guilty?

RadiantAdolin posted...

In general, the best policy is to treat everyone who makes a claim seriously unless you have actual evidence against the claims. Believing them doesn't mean condemning the accused. But when several accusations are made against the same person, if you're still insisting innocent until proven guilty, I'm judging you as much as them.

Believing somebody does condemn the accused. And your attitude and approach might be great if this was 1600s Salem.

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Zeus posted...

So I and a five other people decided to just accuse you of doing something, you should be assumed guilty?

That's a nice strawman, thankfully that isn't actually happening.

Zeus posted...

Believing somebody does condemn the accused.

Wrong.

RadiantAdolin posted...

At that point, asking for more evidence is insulting to the accusers.

Brooooo that's literally why evidence is so important. Accusations should never, EVER, under any circumstances or with any number, supersede actual evidence.

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Gobstoppers12 posted...

Brooooo that's literally why evidence is so important. Accusations should never, EVER, under any circumstances or with any number, supersede actual evidence.

In the court system, yes. In terms of public opinion? Nah.

RadiantAdolin posted...

So prove me wrong then.

nice the fact you asked this is a beautiful proof

TC just desperately wishes he could fulfill his dream of being a corrupt medieval judge

DarkRoast posted...

Innocent until proven guilty is an incredibly important cornerstone of a fair legal system.

This.
Presumption of Innocence is a bit like Democracy in the words of Sir Winston Churchill : the worst form of government except for all the others.

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Romes187 posted...

nice the fact you asked this is a beautiful proof

So you can't actually argue against it. Got it.

Zikten posted...

TC just desperately wishes he could fulfill his dream of being a corrupt medieval judge

I mean, I made it very clear from the start I wasn't talking about in legal terms, but in social and public opinion.

RadiantAdolin posted...

In the court system, yes. In terms of public opinion? Nah.

Dude, the failures of public opinion to accurately represent truth and justice are exactly why courts were devised in the first place.

As a person with integrity you should know better than to condemn a person based on another person's word (and no hard evidence)

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I'm going to accuse him of trolling and I suggest we all find him guilty until proven innocent.

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Gobstoppers12 posted...

Dude, the failures of public opinion to accurately represent truth and justice are exactly why courts were devised in the first place.

As a person with integrity you should know better than to condemn a person based on another person's word (and no hard evidence)

Nah, if I personally condemn someone when there are multiple similar, independent accusations against them, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Zeus posted...

I'm going to accuse him of trolling and I suggest we all find him guilty until proven innocent.

Kid I've been around way longer than you lol

RadiantAdolin posted...

Nah, if I personally condemn someone when there are multiple similar, independent accusations against them, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I can think of several things wrong with it, but the further we go, the more I think you're just trolling. So I'mma stop.

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this is not a good topic

and never will be

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AssultTank posted...

We literally have Donald Trump as a president because enough people were misguided enough to vote for him, and you want those same people making judgements about possible criminal activity without evidence?

That literally has nothing to do with anything but nice try.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

I can think of several things wrong with it, but the further we go, the more I think you're just trolling. So I'mma stop.

So you can't argue against it. Glad you admit it.

AssultTank posted...

I think I am going to independently accuse TC of trolling. We have several other independent accusations in here, therefore TC is trolling.

Makes sense for your general level of intelligence and maturity. Imma go ahead and just ignore you now.

AssultTank posted...

I think I am going to independently accuse TC of trolling. We have several other independent accusations in here, therefore TC is trolling.

Indeed. There have now been at least three independent accusations. It is now acceptable to condemn him in the court of public opinion by his very own logic.

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Gobstoppers12 posted...

Indeed. There have now been at least three independent accusations. It is now acceptable to condemn him in the court of public opinion by his very own logic.

Sure go ahead.

There hasn't been an intelligent claim against me though, so you'll still be laughably wrong.