Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 309: Putin a lifetime bounty

(+) Yeah! (+)

Corrik7 posted...

Then move. If you hate the nation you live in, nobody is keeping you here.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to just move to another country? Even if you ignore things like the actual money it would cost, the language barrier in most cases, you can pretty much only get a long term visa through a job or a marriage. Jobs in other countries aren't exactly easy to come by, as most people don't want to sponsor a foreign workers visa unless it's the only way to fill the position.

Besides that, if you expect people to love America your message should be about why people should do so, not just demanding love or telling people to leave. Love isn't unconditional, and if your response to criticism in a relationship would be 'leave if you don't like my behavior' rather than engaging with criticism then I don't know what to say.

I think the people who can't realize that the United States has taken an incredible sheer drop in quality lately are way worse than the people who have come to hate it right now.

And I say this as someone who served this country.

Like, if things don't turn around soonish I don't think it's hyperbole to say that in 2620 they'll study the Fall of USA like we do the Fall of Rome.

---

GentlemanGamer posted...

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to just move to another country? Even if you ignore things like the actual money it would cost, the language barrier in most cases, you can pretty much only get a long term visa through a job or a marriage. Jobs in other countries aren't exactly easy to come by, as most people don't want to sponsor a foreign workers visa unless it's the only way to fill the position.

Besides that, if you expect people to love America your message should be about why people should do so, not just demanding love or telling people to leave. Love isn't unconditional, and if your response to criticism in a relationship would be 'leave if you don't like my behavior' rather than engaging with criticism then I don't know what to say.

It's not my job to convince him to be rational. If he wants to be irrational, there are irrational options out there for him to take. Moving no matter how hard it is would be the alternative to someone who hates the country they live in.

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

People like this need to be locked up for life. Utterly irredeemable monsters.

God what is it with this knee jerk reaction to lock up and dehumanize people.

Please stop calling criminals monsters. Theyre people, like you and me, no matter what theyve done. Life has led them down this road somehow, and you dont fix the problem by just erasing him. When you call him inhuman, you put him in a category where its okay to not treat him like a person anymore.

There are some people who are beyond help and he might be one of them, I dont know, but this sort of reaction bothers me.
---

Corrik7 posted...

Moving no matter how hard it is would be the alternative to someone who hates the country they live in.

Or is it possible that there are no good countries
---

....I dunno Jakyl I think cop who hires his rapist connections from the beat to rape for pay might be a line that's crossed.

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

People like this need to be locked up for life. Utterly irredeemable monsters.

The last time I saw a news story about this kind of plot (although it didn't involve police), after a few months, when the investigation was completed it turned out that the plot was one layer deeper and was actually a plot by the alleged victim/actual criminal to frame the alleged perpetrator/actual victim.

---

Still wanna know how he had a rapist on speed dial to put out his rape hit.

---

UshiromiyaEva posted...

....I dunno Jakyl I think cop who hires his rapist connections from the beat to rape for pay might be a line that's crossed.

What do you wanna do, have the cops go get him?
---

Corrik7 posted...

Still wanna know how he had a rapist on speed dial to put out his rape hit.

I mean hes probably met a few unsavory individuals during his time as an officer
---

Jakyl25 posted...

God what is it with this knee jerk reaction to lock up and dehumanize people.

Please stop calling criminals monsters. Theyre people, like you and me, no matter what theyve done. Life has led them down this road somehow, and you dont fix the problem by just erasing him. When you call him inhuman, you put him in a category where its okay to not treat him like a person anymore.

There are some people who are beyond help and he might be one of them, I dont know, but this sort of reaction bothers me.

Thank you Jaykl for saying this. There is basically no utility in writing off anyone as a "monster." Even assuming that some people are "monsters" unless you have a way of identifying them before they commit crimes you don't gain any useful information from the label. And when you use a label like that, you stop thinking about the real reasons people commit crimes, which, if we understand, we can use to prevent crimes from happening.

---

Corrik7 posted...

It's not my job to convince him to be rational. If he wants to be irrational, there are irrational options out there for him to take. Moving no matter how hard it is would be the alternative to someone who hates the country they live in.

So why is loving America the rational thing to do?

Jakyl25 posted...

God what is it with this knee jerk reaction to lock up and dehumanize people.

Please stop calling criminals monsters. Theyre people, like you and me, no matter what theyve done. Life has led them down this road somehow, and you dont fix the problem by just erasing him. When you call him inhuman, you put him in a category where its okay to not treat him like a person anymore.

There are some people who are beyond help and he might be one of them, I dont know, but this sort of reaction bothers me.

1) To be clear, I'm referring specifically to the rapist (unless the doxxer knew ahead of time that this would happen, in which case I would also put him in this category). If someone is so devoid of empathy that they're capable of using rape as a method of punishment, I'm very confident that there is no way that they can be reformed.

2) I don't think it's therefore okay to subject such a person to inhuman treatment themselves, but they have, in my mind, given up any right to be free and pose any risk to anyone else ever again.

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

If someone is so devoid of empathy that they're capable of using rape as a method of punishment, I'm very confident that there is no way that they can be reformed.

I think its case by case, and if someone truly is irredeemable, why not just put them down?

For the sake of argument lets say we are 100% sure
---

LordoftheMorons posted...

1) To be clear, I'm referring specifically to the rapist (unless the doxxer knew ahead of time that this would happen, in which case I would also put him in this category). If someone is so devoid of empathy that they're capable of using rape as a method of punishment, I'm very confident that there is no way that they can be reformed.

2) I don't think it's therefore okay to subject such a person to inhuman treatment themselves, but they have, in my mind, given up any right to be free and pose any risk to anyone else ever again.

If you don't try to understand people, you won't. When society fails to understand why people commit crimes, more crimes happen. Because when a society does not understand the cause of crime, they cannot take actions to prevent it.

---

Also I love how you tell me to move, but if someone tried to escape suffering in Mexico and didn't do it the way you approve of, they're a terrible person and should be sent back.

---

It's hard to use the theoretical of being 100% sure that someone is an irredeemable criminal, when basically every form of media based around that concept existing (Psycho-Pass, Minority Report, etc) has the endgame plot of "oh shit maybe it WASN'T completely accurate."

---

Jakyl25 posted...

I think its case by case, and if someone truly is irredeemable, why not just put them down?

For the sake of argument lets say we are 100% sure

Not being sure is the most important reason not to use the death penalty, but it also debases ourselves (and then less importantly there's the practical matter of the fact that it costs more to execute someone than to jail them for life given appeals etc).

---

UshiromiyaEva posted...

It's hard to use the theoretical of being 100% sure that someone is an irredeemable criminal, when basically every form of media based around that concept existing (Psycho-Pass, Minority Report, etc) has the endgame plot of "oh shit maybe it WASN'T completely accurate."

OK so why are you locking them up forever?

---

LordoftheMorons posted...

Not being sure is the most important reason not to use the death penalty, but it also debases ourselves (and then less importantly there's the practical matter of the fact that it costs more to execute someone than to jail them for life given appeals etc).

That's just because we take death penalty appeals more seriously. Life without parole is a horrible sentence and someone who gets that should get the same appeal process as we give someone for the death penalty IMO. Not doing it is like an admission that we are okay with innocent people being imprisoned for life because hey, it isn't definitely permanent.

---

I'm against the death penalty so I can't go back on that even for 'raped someone to teach them a lesson' guy

But frankly speaking, if the guy who did it got murdered in his sleep in retaliation I'd be clapping

---

red sox 777 posted...

If you don't try to understand people, you won't. When society fails to understand why people commit crimes, more crimes happen. Because when a society does not understand the cause of crime, they cannot take actions to prevent it.

Some people, however, absolutely do understand why people commit crimes, and want it to happen. Prisons and prison labor make a lot of people rich, drug cartels are run by very wealthy men who need customers. The fear of crime, the fear of terror results in increases in the budget for police and the military. The idea that the government is keeping you safe from lawless others increases support for the regime. Crime is incredibly helpful to a lot of powerful people. Joe Biden himself built his entire career on fighting crime, not understanding it, and now he might become president from it. I guess ignorance pays.

TheRock1525 posted...

Also I love how you tell me to move, but if someone tried to escape suffering in Mexico and didn't do it the way you approve of, they're a terrible person and should be sent back.

Wrong. I said people who go through Mexico from other countries to request asylum here aren't looking for asylum but are economically immigrating. Asylum is going to the nearest country available and requesting help. Swing and a miss on that argument, bud.

---

I want to be very clear on my stance hear. I am against the death penalty because I beleive 100% certainty is impossible in just about any case in this world.

If a way to have 100% certainty was guaranteed, by which I mean not excessive evidence but an actual MAGICAL BULLSHIT way to know 100% he was guilty and incapable of redemption? I would be for the death penalty in a case like this.

But that's literally impossible and will never happen.

---

UshiromiyaEva posted...

If a way to have 100% certainty was guaranteed, by which I mean not excessive evidence but an actual MAGICAL BULLSHIT way to know 100% he was guilty and incapable of redemption? I would be for the death penalty in a case like this.

Why would you specifically be for the death penalty in this situation as opposed to any other method? I guess I'm asking if you think this is actually the best solution if you could be completely sure.

---

Because it's a situation where you know for a 100% fact that the person is incapable of redemption, remorse, or continuing to function in society. Keeping them locked up serves no purpose, rehabilitation is impossible, just like this theoretical situation where I would be pro death penalty isn't actually possible.

---

death penalty is immoral even if it is somehow magically absolutely certain that the accused committed his heinous crimes premeditated completey of his own accord out of nothing but the more base, evil and selfish motivations

---

I feel like the alternative of guaranteed life imprisonment is more immoral in that situation. That's just my personal gut feeling. I would rather be dead than guaranteed life in prison.

---

how about imprisonment for life, but we give them a noose anytime they want

---

UshiromiyaEva posted...

I feel like the alternative of guaranteed life imprisonment is more immoral in that situation. That's just my personal gut feeling. I would rather be dead than guaranteed life in prison.

Okay, see, your hypothetical relies on us still using our current immoral prison system. But also, this hypothetical involves us knowing the person is 100% guilty and 100% unable to be reformed. And there is no possible way to know if someone can be reformed if we are still using incarceration as it exists now. So that can't be true.

---

Corrik7 posted...

Then move. If you hate the nation you live in, nobody is keeping you here.

This is un-American as hell, ironically

---

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Okay, see, your hypothetical relies on us still using our current immoral prison system. But also, this hypothetical involves us knowing the person is 100% guilty and 100% unable to be reformed. And there is no possible way to know if someone can be reformed if we are still using incarceration as it exists now. So that can't be true.

this, and, in general, giving people a decision is more moral than making one for them. if dying is better than life in prison, the inmate should be able to make that choice himself (incidentally, assisted suicide should be legal too)

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0uCrA7ePno

This is Hillary Clinton in 1996 bragging about Bill Clinton aggressively enforcing the 1994 crime bill which Biden led through Congress to "get more police officers on the streets" in order to bring minority kids "to heel."

---

Not_an_Owl posted...

how about imprisonment for life, but we give them a noose anytime they want

This might be a tangent but I 100% support anyones right to die.

The only time I think its tragic is if they have dependents.
---

UshiromiyaEva posted...

I want to be very clear on my stance hear. I am against the death penalty because I beleive 100% certainty is impossible in just about any case in this world.

If a way to have 100% certainty was guaranteed, by which I mean not excessive evidence but an actual MAGICAL BULLSHIT way to know 100% he was guilty and incapable of redemption? I would be for the death penalty in a case like this.

But that's literally impossible and will never happen.

The reason I used that hypothetical was because LotM seemed super sure that this person is irredeemable.

I totally agree with you with regard to the death penalty and our flawed justice system, but if youre GOING IN with the assumption that hes a lost cause, why not just end him?
---

Jakyl25 posted...

I totally agree with you with regard to the death penalty and our flawed justice system, but if youre GOING IN with the assumption that hes a lost cause, why not just end him?

because he's still human and you don't have a right to take away somebody's life in cold blood anymore than he does

---

NFUN posted...

because he's still human and you don't have a right to take away somebody's life in cold blood anymore than he does

I dont think its in cold blood in that hypothetical. What worth is it to consider his humanity if youre certain hes no longer capable of exercising it?
---

Jakyl25 posted...

I dont think its in cold blood in that hypothetical. What worth is it to consider his humanity if youre certain hes no longer capable of exercising it?

You don't have a right to decide if somebody is no longer "human" either

---

NFUN posted...

You don't have a right to decide if somebody is no longer "human" either

Ok so youre not the target of this thought experiment <_<
---

Jakyl25 posted...

Ok so youre not the target of this thought experiment <_<

I didn't say that you can't fairly call a person an irredeemable monster that can in no way be reformed... they'd just be a human monster. I think it's definitely different to call somebody a monster than to call them an animal; only the latter is dehumanizing. Especially since if cartoons have taught us anything, it's that humans are the real monsters.

personally i don't necessarily believe that anybody is beyond reformation but that's not a point worth talking about

---

NFUN posted...

I didn't say that you can't fairly call a person an irredeemable monster that can in no way be reformed... they'd just be a human monster.

This is the dramatic tension in every Witcher game <_<
---

Jakyl25 posted...

I dont think its in cold blood in that hypothetical. What worth is it to consider his humanity if youre certain hes no longer capable of exercising it?

I think this is a loaded question because the leap directly to death penalty without exploring other options is weird. So far we've only discussed three (prison, rehabilitation, death), but there could be more. But I'm also not the target of this thought experiment!

---

Corrik7 posted...

It's not my job to convince him to be rational. If he wants to be irrational, there are irrational options out there for him to take. Moving no matter how hard it is would be the alternative to someone who hates the country they live in.

"disagreeing with my opinion is irrational"

ok

---

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/06/asia/china-mongolia-bubonic-plague-intl-hnk-scli-scn/index.html

CNN is trying so hard to create as much fear as possible.

---

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1279884213055926272?s=21

Remember when he said hed be too busy to watch a lot of TV?
---

Corrik7 posted...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/06/asia/china-mongolia-bubonic-plague-intl-hnk-scli-scn/index.html

CNN is trying so hard to create as much fear as possible.

Yeah, I think we discussed earlier that the cable news channels exists to push narratives. Its the same as as a station like Fox News fearmongering about how the BLM anarchists are coming to get you or how illegal immigrants are dangerous
---

And if you stray from the message your audience wants to hear, you get, well...

Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1279884213055926272?s=21

---

I'm amazed Trump thinks watching TV for hours a day is a good use of his time. I guess it's like the people posting here, only Trump is older so he uses the tech of his youth.

---

Oh, right, I forgot it was a SCOTUS day so let's see...

9-0 decision against faithless electors in the Electoral College; rule that States may enforce that electors vote as the State provides, under pain of penalty if need be.

---

The President of the United States only has a finite number of hours in each day and I have to imagine there are much better and more time efficient ways to receive information.

But his advisors handing him a sheet of facts wont have the same feeling of fellatio he gets when he watches Fox News so I can see where that might not appeal to him.

---