Board 8 > King of Fighters 2020 (NOT MERCS) R1D16: Mario vs Jon Livingston Seagull (Low)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Welcome to the King of Fighters 2020 (NOT MERCS) Simulated Character Battle Tournament!

The game is simple. The two* listed characters are placed in an (imaginary) location with a variety of (imaginary) environments, kind of like a picture in a child's schoolbook that describes different types of geological features. Within a ten mile radius, there is an (imaginary) urban downtown, exurbs, plains, snow-clad mountains at the edge, dry plains, etc. Fighters start wherever is most appropriate for them, but feel increasingly compelled to seek out their opponent and fight. Strong-willed fighters can try to hold out in their chosen environment for longer... eventually, all will succumb and actively search for the other to battle.

To participate, just vote in bold for whichever character you believe will win. Giving reasoning is optional, but please be polite and read what others have said and carefully make your decision. I'll ping the nominators (they can opt out) to give arguments if they wish.

TODAY'S PARTICIPANTS:
Mario (Mario)
https://i.imgur.com/5KfPgC3.gif
https://youtu.be/8kkZx8UMUSo?t=9

vs

Jonathan Livingston Seagull

Jonathan Livingston Seagull is a bird... that can "move instantaneously to anywhere else in the Universe"

@PrinceKaro @UF8

FIGHT

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what... what even is this

can this fucking seagull even do anything beyond teleporting and pondering the meaning of existence?

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PrinceKaro posted...

what... what even is this

can this fucking seagull even do anything beyond teleporting and pondering the meaning of existence?

welcome to UF8 noms

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<b>seagull</b> teleports inside of mario destroying his internal organs, gg

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this is how long its been since i used bold tags on gamefaqs

im not fixing that

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The dumb seagull has his head in the clouds as usual and doesn't even notice the super plumber coming

he gets hit by a fireball for 200 points

Mario

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Seagull probably won't even want to fight Mario, but Mario can't beat him and the rules say that the fighters will eventually be compelled to fight. Or maybe Mario dies of old age before Jon is compelled to fight; either way Mario loses.
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Jonathan Livingston Seagull is a peaceful bird who would probably recognize Mario as a kindred spirit. Jonathan's existence is based around flying and freedom, and that's basically Mario's existence too. The bird probably teaches Mario to fly without the need for a powerup, and they go flying off into the sky together. So, draw.

However, what probably happens, since they're compelled to fight, is Jonathan tries divebombing Mario and Mario hops on him like a normal enemy. Jonathan could theoretically teleport away from Mario's feet and/or fists, but I don't think the bird's reaction time is probably all that great. Maybe he gets in a hit on Mario if he's fortunate, but Mario is not to be fooled more than once.

Mario.

X_Dante_X posted...

<b>seagull</b> teleports inside of mario destroying his internal organs, gg

this was my immediate thought, though it sounds like it's not the seagull's go-to mode of attack?
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also I almost said "gut reaction" but uh
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Drakeryn posted...

this was my immediate thought, though it sounds like it's not the seagull's go-to mode of attack?

He doesn't have a mode of attack. He's a peaceful bird who literally transcends the mortal realm and teaches other birds the meaning of flying freely. The only thing he can do against Mario is either divebomb him (which wouldn't be very effective against Mario) or something off-the-beaten-path like grabbing onto Mario and teleporting both of them to get a ring out, which I don't know if Jonathan would ever even consider. I guess he could maybe knock some things onto Mario's head?

rwlh posted...

He doesn't have a mode of attack. He's a peaceful bird who literally transcends the mortal realm and teaches other birds the meaning of flying freely. The only thing he can do against Mario is either divebomb him (which wouldn't be very effective against Mario) or something off-the-beaten-path like grabbing onto Mario and teleporting both of them to get a ring out, which I don't know if Jonathan would ever even consider. I guess he could maybe knock some things onto Mario's head?

Mario's skull is harder than steel

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Mario doesn't break things with his head! He uses his fist.

I didn't say it was a good strategy, lol.

Mario probably shouldnt be low considering how much crazy stuff hes done thanks to being from a cartoony universe. Kicking the castle is a well known one, for example.
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as soon as the bird even thinks about getting near Mario it's toast, maybe literally

unless it did teleport inside him before anything else but there's a good chance that would kill the bird too probably? I don't feel very confident about the bird winning that way, and Mario might even be able to survive it with a starman

Mario

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rwlh posted...

Mario doesn't break things with his head! He uses his fist.

I didn't say it was a good strategy, lol.

I do not care

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@PrinceKaro would you say that it's fair for Mario to have permanent powerups accessible (fire flower, feather, etc) and not temporary powers (jumbo, metal, Starman, etc)?

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rwlh posted...

He doesn't have a mode of attack. He's a peaceful bird who literally transcends the mortal realm and teaches other birds the meaning of flying freely.

okay yeah, it sounds like this guy is going to resist his violent impulses longer than Mario which means he's screwed

Mario
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i will now show jonathan feats

https://youtu.be/6zT8nQRj_OQ

is there a highlights reel

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i wish

actually wait there is a wiki entry

https://100orangejuice.gamepedia.com/Big_the_Jonathan

some things to keep in mind are that it has up to 75hp in a game where the most any playable character has is 8, said characters are basically on par with average superheroes strength-wise (at least in other games) and it takes a team of 4 who can resurrect each other to take it down (which often doesn't work since it can use a ton of moves shown on there to just wipe out the team)

oh google is telling me there's both a literature version (which is what rwlh said) and an orange juice version

which one was nominated lol

unvote
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i nominated him as both, jonathan in oj is ultimately still based on book jon

one thing i shouuld also note though is big jon is basically the equivalent of book jon transcending mortal bounds (he can teleport naturally regardless though in it)

this does not look or sound like the same character as "peaceful bird that considers the meaning of life"

but Mario has dumb cartoon logic on his side like "can get squashed flat and be okay five seconds later"

I don't know anything anymore

unvote

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ah there's the image i wanted to use

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so, uh, what is the power level of the 100% orange juice cast
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https://suguri.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Breaker

Wow, I didn't think Jonathan would even need to attack to win this, but apparently we're going with a version that has offensive abilities?

Yeah, Mario voters are going to need a good argument here.
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i'm fine with no holds barred when it comes to mario feats here since i do think it's theoretically still close, but nonetheless i've presented my case

NFUN posted...

@PrinceKaro would you say that it's fair for Mario to have permanent powerups accessible (fire flower, feather, etc) and not temporary powers (jumbo, metal, Starman, etc)?

certainly. item powerups are an integral part of Mario's character. to deny him them would be like saying batman cant have his utility belt. in nearly all of Mario's 2d outings he can carry items around for later use so he doesnt necessarily need to be in the mushroom kingdom to use all his shit

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Based on my understanding of Mario biology, I am confident that if the seagull teleported into Mario, he would have to go through an inner-Mario dungeon. Additionally, based on the P Balloon, I see no reason why Mario's body would not simply inflate to accommodate the seagull in front of him - less due to the power up itself and more due to the fact that it proves that Mario's body is not constrained by his skeleton. Additionally, as 100% Orange Juice is a board game, I feel as if Mario, having survived every game of Mario Party and the canonical winner of Mario Party 2, has an advantage in sheer endurance.

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Kamekguy posted...

Based on my understanding of Mario biology, I am confident that if the seagull teleported into Mario, he would have to go through an inner-Mario dungeon. Additionally, based on the P Balloon, I see no reason why Mario's body would not simply inflate to accommodate the seagull in front of him - less due to the power up itself and more due to the fact that it proves that Mario's body is not constrained by his skeleton. Additionally, as 100% Orange Juice is a board game, I feel as if Mario, having survived every game of Mario Party and the canonical winner of Mario Party 2, has an advantage in sheer endurance.

very convincing

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So can someone explain why we're suddenly talking about some character from an anime game

you can't possibly claim that this is the same seagull from the classic book series. A homage to the book based on the name maybe, but they are utterly different characters and UF8 needs to make up his mind which one he wanted to nom

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they're definitely different, but since UF8 is citing game feats (and the game version is the more combat-oriented one) I'm gonna take it as the game version
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ok well in that case the seagull teleporting inside mario to frag him is not a valid argument anymore because that's a book johnathan feat

In the case of RPG boss seagull, well, Mario has a lot of experience in that field, he's had like 10 rpg games where he beats up monsters just like Johnathan.

most notably this guy
https://www.mariowiki.com/Culex

I am matter... I am antimatter... I can see your past... I can see your future... I consume time... And I will consume you!

thats a little bit more than a cute cartoon seagull

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Ok well, A: Big the Johnathan is not how Johnathan actually is in almost every game of Orange Juice- he's normally the significantly weaker this- https://100orangejuice.gamepedia.com/Seagull I'm not sure if including Big is fair because that's A: an non-canon co-op boss, and B. if we give this to Johnathan we should also give Mario feats from crossovers like Smash
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let's just stop stressing about this and all vote Mario

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Yeah, sure. Mario
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if this is just a straight up fight with no teleport feat I think Mario has the edge, going up against monsters like Bowser and Culex is just another day on the job for him

So, sounds good. Mario

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To be fair, Mario didn't fight Culex alone. He normally fights Bowser alone, and it took Mario and Bowser, plus three other people of comparable power, to beat Culex.

That said, in https://suguri.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Breaker (which UF8 posted above) it says Star Breaker "immolated an entire city." Not sure how that compares to Big Jon's destructive capabilities though. His durability seems pretty good, given that, according to UF8, "it takes a team of 4 who can resurrect each other to take it down."

Against Big Jon, Mario could:
- Capture him with Cappy
- punch him in the face, but Big Jon might take it, given his above durability
- burn him with Ultra Flame
- hit him with a hammer or with a giant shell
- lots of additional stuff with powerups

Against Mario, Big Jon could:
https://100orangejuice.gamepedia.com/Big_the_Jonathan#Cards
- teleport repeatedly and rush him
- send down damaging rain
- divebomb him

I'm not seeing how Big Jon puts Mario down for the count, and I'm seeing lots of ways Mario could do it.

Also, a durability feat for Mario: in Super Mario Odyssey he gets knocked off an airship while high in the sky and survives a fall down to the ground. He's knocked unconscious, but he has no lingering ill effects. Granted, unconsciousness is probably a win for his opponent, but can Big Jon deal comparable force to Mario?

rwlh posted...

That said, in https://suguri.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Breaker (which UF8 posted above) it says Star Breaker "immolated an entire city."

Yeah, I'm not super familiar but I have good respect for the Suguri universe (fast flight, lots of futuristic high-tech and actual combat showings). If this were Mario vs. any Suguri character I would vote the Suguri character without question.

The thing is that 100% Orange Juice is a big crossover game, and the power level of the underlying worlds seems to vary a lot. Flying Red Barrel "takes place in a world where flight technology is a recent invention." QP appears to be a contemporary about a girl whose pudding gets stolen. So it's just hard to quantify. (In that regard it's kinda like Smash, where the cast runs the gamut from Samus to Little Mac, and everyone's canon power level is compressed to allow them to compete.)

But I think seagull being a superboss that you have to 4v1 (and is still difficult) probably gives him the edge? idk but I'm going with it

seagull
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Mario

no"not mercs" nerfs means he has invincibility stars


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Lopen posted...

Mario

no"not mercs" nerfs means he has invincibility stars

NFUN posted...

@PrinceKaro would you say that it's fair for Mario to have permanent powerups accessible (fire flower, feather, etc) and not temporary powers (jumbo, metal, Starman, etc)?

PrinceKaro posted...

certainly

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Is that an official non-mercs ruling on what Mario has or just a suggestion

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I thought it was just a suggestion but it seems a sensible one so I took it
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There are Mario Invincibility Powerups that are permanent, though, like the Invincibility Leaf
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arbitrarily limiting Mario's powerups doesn't make much sense to me here, he's known for them as much as he's known for jumping around stomping on turtles

if Mega Man was in this would he have to choose from one set of weapons?

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