Poll of the Day > Seth Rogen comes out as Anti-Israel.

(+) Yeah! (+)

OhhhJa posted...

All countries that currently exist were at some point land that was seized

How is that relevant. I am asking In what sense palestinian territory was 'up for grabs'.

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OniRonin posted...

How is that relevant. I am asking In what sense palestinian territory was 'up for grabs'.

The same way that other land has been seized. There wasn't really much of a centralized power in the area so it was easy to come in and claim

You mean a guy who makes a lot of anti-semitic jokes turned out to be an anti-semite? I'm shocked!

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OniRonin posted...

What

It was still unsettled as a country following WWI. It wasn't officially/legally up for grabs, but it was still figuring itself out so to speak. I'm not saying Jews had the right to take it over (not that that's exactly what occurred - it was complicated) but it would be fair to say the territory was still coming together (in part because of the mass Jewish migration, yes).


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I love the link TC provided proving they aren't making this up.

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SunWuKung420 posted...

I love the link TC provided proving they aren't making this up.

links are for squares.

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Lokarin posted...

links are for squares.

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He already did this in a movie where he pretended to be anti Jewish to infiltrate some anti Jewish group. He's probably just baked out of his mind and thinks he's still filming.

dedbus posted...

He already did this in a movie where he pretended to be anti Jewish to infiltrate some anti Jewish group. He's probably just baked out of his mind and thinks he's still filming.

what movie are you talking about

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THEGODDAMNBATMA posted...

He was Pro Israel up until recently. This is a new development.

Its hard to pick sides for some people sometimes.

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dedbus posted...

He already did this in a movie where he pretended to be anti Jewish to infiltrate some anti Jewish group. He's probably just baked out of his mind and thinks he's still filming.

anti-israel isn't anti-jewish

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Mead posted...

what movie are you talking about

@dedbus

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I heard that they actually used to be bffs and $omething called zionism took over D: Can a mod plz explain I just wanna know the truth!

SunWuKung420 posted...

I love the link TC provided proving they aren't making this up.

I think hes referring to the interview on marc marons podcast where he talked about being Jewish with Maron for like an hour and a half. It was a great interview and he didnt come out as anti Israel in it, he just said they were dicks

Zeus posted...

You mean a guy who makes a lot of anti-semitic jokes turned out to be an anti-semite? I'm shocked!

Serious or nah?

Mead posted...

yeah this is not ok

you don't learn from your mistakes do you

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Wanded posted...

you don't learn from your mistakes do you

I think everyone deserves the same fundamental rights

sorry if thats an outlandish concept to you

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Mead posted...

I think everyone deserves the same fundamental rights

sorry if thats an outlandish concept to you

again, you blindly choose to believe false information without fact checking and doing a little research...then again you are a liberal so that's not really surprising lol

What you quoted isn't true, isreal repeatedly offered the palestinians a state of their own, in 5 different occasions trhoughtout history, in all of which the palestinians turned the offer down and immediately started attacking israel


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Wanded posted...

you blindly choose to believe false information without fact checking and doing a little research

Why do you choose to criticize Mead and not me, the source of the so-called "false information"? Do you perhaps fear I might know what I'm talking about?

I have no doubt I will fail to convince you of anything, but for others who may be reading: yes, Israel has made two-state offers in the past. Some offers were made early, either during or soon after the Palentinians were pushed out the territory that they had until recently occupied. I believe it's unrealistic to believe a people would agree to live in a small "rump state" made up of fragmented areas while they're in the process of being pushed there. Other offers were made later where perhaps the acceptance of Israel could have been accepted, but - very long story short - they were not.

There is no doubt that both parties can point to grievance upon grievance in the past. The relevant point in 2020, though, is that no true permanent solution has been offered in many years. Isreal is the entity who has the power in the relationship (as well as the entity with good living standards). Therefore, in moral and practical terms they are going to have to be the ones to seek and find a solution. If they choose nurse grievances instead and to hold people who are in their power as sub-citizens permanently...well, I suppose history will judge them.

I should say that there is significant support for a two-state solution in Israel (depending on how you define it) so there may be some hope. However, their current leadership is close to the religious right and there is no hope for such a solution with that group.

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wpot posted...

Isreal is the entity who has the power in the relationship

Which is why they don't initiate conflict. Palestine attacks with human shields and Israel punishes them for being completely inhumane. Palestine refuses to admit its military inferiority and surrender so needless suffering occurs.
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Wanded posted...

again, you blindly choose to believe false information without fact checking and doing a little research...then again you are a liberal so that's not really surprising lol

What you quoted isn't true, isreal repeatedly offered the palestinians a state of their own, in 5 different occasions trhoughtout history, in all of which the palestinians turned the offer down and immediately started attacking israel

if the information is false then I suppose my opinion is the following

Mead posted...

I think everyone deserves the same fundamental rights

sorry if thats an outlandish concept to you

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sodium-chloride posted...

good

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Which is why they don't initiate conflict. Palestine attacks with human shields and Israel punishes them for being completely inhumane. Palestine refuses to admit its military inferiority and surrender so needless suffering occurs.

The Palestinians goad Israel into action with terrorist attacks. Israel responds with, at times, excessive force. Even if Palestinians are using "human shields" (a misleading term, but one which is functionally close enough at times) Israel is still choosing to direct fire into populated areas with predictable results. Is the military value of those attacks worth it? I doubt it, and the death toll for terrorist attacks versus Israeli army retaliation has been heavily weighted towards Palestinian deaths over the life of the conflict (and particularly so in the last couple decades). Neither party comes out clean.

But it doesn't really matter at a high level. Geopolitically, those fights are all posturing that doesn't change the situation one way or another. The "conflict" is already initiated and will not be resolved until the Palestinians have a permanent place in Israel (or in their own country).

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Good for Seth. Nobody should support ethnostates.

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wpot posted...

The Palestinians goad Israel into action with terrorist attacks. Israel responds with, at times, excessive force. Even if Palestinians are using "human shields" (a misleading term, but one which is functionally close enough at times) Israel is still choosing to direct fire into populated areas with predictable results. Is the military value of those attacks worth it? I doubt it, and the death toll for terrorist attacks versus Israeli army retaliation has been heavily weighted towards Palestinian deaths over the life of the conflict (and particularly so in the last couple decades). Neither party comes out clean.

But it doesn't really matter at a high level. Geopolitically, those fights are all posturing that doesn't change the situation one way or another. The "conflict" is already initiated and will not be resolved until the Palestinians have a permanent place in Israel (or in their own country).

"Human shields" is absolutely the correct term, considering they intentionally set up to fire rockets from schools, hospitals, etc.. so that either Israel can't shoot back, or if they do it's a PR coup (win/win situation for them).
There's even been cases where Hamas or Hezbollah had accidents with their munitions that killed nearby innocent people and they tried to blame it on Israeli attacks.
It's absolutely disgusting behavior, period.

The difference between the Israeli military and the Palestinian terrorist groups is that Israel tries to minimize the collateral damage when they take out military targets, even providing advance warning of impending attacks so people can at least try and flee the premises (yes, only a few minutes, but wtf do you expect, for them to announce to Hamas where to aim their rockets half a day in advance?).
And Hamas/Hezbollah intentionally aim for civilian targets, attempt bus bombings, etc...

wpot posted...

Israel is still choosing to direct fire into populated areas with predictable results.

It's as if that's where they launch their attacks from. Palestinians use their own people as a shield to bomb Israel freely and Israel makes it very clear that if they want to play stupid games, they're going to win stupid prizes.

wpot posted...

Is the military value of those attacks worth it? I doubt it

The toll of allowing them to believe they can use emotional manipulation to gain military control is much worse.

wpot posted...

the death toll for terrorist attacks versus Israeli army retaliation has been heavily weighted towards Palestinian deaths over the life of the conflict

It's as though Palestine has been attacking them for decades. Really it's a surprise Israel hasn't completely evaporated Palestine, if not for the fact commiting genocide would lose them protection from the west and the muslim world would proceed to genocide them.

Israel is in a tricky position that forces them to flex their muscles to keep their neighbours at bay.

wpot posted...

The "conflict" is already initiated and will not be resolved until the Palestinians have a permanent place in Israel (or in their own country).

They don't want their own country, they rejected that, they want to conquer Israel. Given the choice of Palestine conquering Israel or Israel conquering Palestine, I prefer Israel winning. They don't really need much help there anyway as every time Palestine starts an assault, Israel takes a small bit of Palestinian land and due to the small nature of it, the west will ignore it.

One day Israel will take back every inch of land from Palestine without ever having to be the aggressor and it will be hilarious.
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wpot posted...

Why do you choose to criticize Mead and not me

because of what happened before your post and because you acknowledge you don't know enough to deem a country evil and bad without research

wpot posted...

Isreal is the entity who has the power in the relationship

No, the palestinians do, all they have to do is put down their weapons and say "we're gucci now, country plz" and they'll get a country, they could have done this in any point in the last 70 years and they would have gotten a state, instead they keep committing terrorist attacks against israel

wpot posted...

(as well as the entity with good living standards)

What does this have to do with anything? lol
you mentioning this is proof of your patronizing liberal outlook on the subject
"they rich so they bad, they poor so they good"
You're obviously not stupid and have done research on the subject but your liberal leaning tilts you to illogical places, the palestinians received billions of dollars in aid, more than any other group in the world per capita, enough to make gaza a modern place with skyscrapers and anything you would want in your city, why didn't that happen? why is gaza still a ghetto? where did all that money go? it went into terrorist attacks against israel because they rather destroy israel than care for themselves, that's the "relevant point" in 2020, in 2019 and in any year this conflict existed

wpot posted...

Therefore, in moral and practical terms they are going to have to be the ones to seek and find a solution

No, it's not, in crazy liberal (but i repeat myself) terms it is, but in sane people terms it's not, once the other side made it clear they only want you dead it's no longer your obligation to be nice

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

They don't want their own country, they rejected that, they want to conquer Israel. Given the choice of Palestine conquering Israel or Israel conquering Palestine, I prefer Israel winning. They don't really need much help there anyway as every time Palestine starts an assault, Israel takes a small bit of Palestinian land and due to the small nature of it, the west will ignore it.

One day Israel will take back every inch of land from Palestine without ever having to be the aggressor and it will be hilarious.

Israel doesn't want to retake all of the Palestinian land. Then their population would be merged into Israel's and overwhelm the Jewish population, reducing their poilitical power or even making them once again the minority ethnic/religious group, this time in their own country.

Please stop commenting in this topic. Your input is as terrible as usual and any side you argue for inevitably ends up looking worse for having suffered your "help".

Kyuubi4269 posted...

It's as though Palestine has been attacking them for decades

gaza*, palestine doesn't exist

Kyuubi4269 posted...

and the muslim world would proceed to genocide them.

they tried, several times

War of independence 1948
Egypt
Iraq
Transjordan
Syria
Lebanon
Saudi Arabia
Yemen
Palestinian arabs
Holy War Army
Arab Liberation Army

VS

Israel

Winner: Israel

Six-day War 1967
Egypt
Syria
Jordan
Iraq

VS

Israel

Winner: Israel (in 6 days lol)

Yom Kippur War 1973
Egypt
Syria
Iraq
Jordan
Algeria
Morocco
Saudi Arabia
Cuba
North Korea

VS

Israel

Winner: Israel

There are some more but these are the highlights, israel gained more land with each war so the muslims stopped attacking eventually, now they're waiting on a nuclear bomb to rekindle their hope of jewish genocide.

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Wanded posted...

There are some more but these are the highlights, israel gained more land with each war so the muslims stopped attacking eventually, now they're waiting on a nuclear bomb to rekindle their hope of jewish genocide.

Israel gave nearly all of that conquered land back, too, aside from a few regions like Golan Heights that they kept to use as a buffer zone from further attacks.
Would've been totally justified to keep it after their neighbors gang piled on them like that.

I've largely said my piece and there isn't much point in debating the core point further in this environment. I'll just say:

Wanded posted...

once the other side made it clear they only want you dead it's no longer your obligation to be nice

This is the difference in our viewpoints. You have a black and white view of the world. Your view is Palestinians = unredeemably bad. There is truth to your criticisms of their actions. However, any simplistic view of a conflict that labels one group of people bad will lead to nothing but war and further conflict. Your fantasy ends with Israel taking control over the remaining Palestinians territory. Even if that somehow occurred...THEN what? Israel would be directly governing a group of people larger than them who want nothing to do with them and denying them representation. How would that be stable (or desirable) in the long term? Do they think they can turn them into Israelis like themselves? Do they plan to kill them all? I really don't understand the mindset of people who think that conflicts like this can be "won" or ended with some sort of territorial take over.

If the motivation is to end the conflict and have stable countries, then somebody has to be the adult in the room and propose something practical. The Palestinian position has been that Israel should be wiped off the map, but that is not a 100% firm belief among their populace. If Israel truly wanted a solution one could be reached: the entire rest of the world wants to see it happen. If the Palestinians were granted their own country and somehow CONTINUED to attack Israel...well, maybe something close to your fantasy could happen then.

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streamofthesky posted...

Israel doesn't want to retake all of the Palestinian land. Then their population would be merged

Lol no, they just don't take them in. They don't have to accept people displaced by war.

Wanded posted...

gaza*, palestine doesn't exist

Gaza is a place, Palestine is the entity. Geography can't launch an attack, people do.

Wanded posted...

There are some more but these are the highlights, israel gained more land with each war so the muslims stopped attacking eventually

I mean, no, they haven't. Turkey even openly asked the other muslim countries to join him in striking Israel again lol

They would be attacking more frequently but Israel has western allies.

wpot posted...

This is the difference in our viewpoints. You have a black and white view of the world. Your view is Palestinians = unredeemably bad. There is truth to your criticisms of their actions. However, any simplistic view of a conflict that labels one group of people bad will lead to nothing but war and further conflict.

That's not the case. They're not irredeemably bad, they're just consistently so. Every time they attack they get smashed, however if they choose to calm the fuck down, they get to have peace.

wpot posted...

If the Palestinians were granted their own country and somehow CONTINUED to attack Israel...well, maybe something close to your fantasy could happen then.

I mean...

Wanded posted...

isreal repeatedly offered the palestinians a state of their own, in 5 different occasions trhoughtout history, in all of which the palestinians turned the offer down and immediately started attacking israel

Israel made consessions, Palestine decided genocidal war is better, Israel defends their existence.
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I just want to point out that one of my friends went to birthright and they told us about how stupid the Palestinians are because they will send rockets over the wall that "fail to detonate" and the Israelis pile them up as trophies.

The Israelis are completely brainwashed if they actually believe this. They're literally willing to believe that these rockets just...don't go off? But they're willing to put potentially live ammunition around in public as trophies lmao?

Also he talked about how on the tourist trails there are a lot of Palestinian snipers on the roads that Israeli snipers are constantly watching. Like holy shit, as if. It's definitely just some bum fuck sniper nest the Israelis put up to scare people and then have some random nobody aim a gun at to pretend their populace is in any danger.

Can also guarantee that the "human shields" are just Palestinian civvies that the Israelis shoot and kill and then claim are shields to make people look the other way.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

That's not the case. They're not irredeemably bad, they're just consistently so. Every time they attack they get smashed, however if they choose to calm the fuck down, they get to have peace.

It's cute that you think the people who are constantly being attacked and having their land stolen are the ones that need to stop attacking.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

wpot posted...

This is the difference in our viewpoints. You have a black and white view of the world. Your view is Palestinians = unredeemably bad. There is truth to your criticisms of their actions. However, any simplistic view of a conflict that labels one group of people bad will lead to nothing but war and further conflict.

That's not the case. They're not irredeemably bad, they're just consistently so. Every time they attack they get smashed, however if they choose to calm the fuck down, they get to have peace.

I note you say "peace" and not "a country or real representation". That's true. With the current Israeli government their relationship with the Palestinians boils down to "If you kill us, we'll kill more of you. If you don't kill us, we won't kill you...we'll just keep creep further and further into your land while otherwise continuing the status quo." There is no option for a real solution on the table at this time (maybe at times in the past, but not now). It's possible that the Palestinians could choose to be the 'adult in the room' first by calming down in other scenarios, but they have no opportunity to do so with the current government.

THEGODDAMNBATMA posted...

Can also guarantee that the "human shields" are just Palestinian civvies that the Israelis shoot and kill and then claim are shields to make people look the other way.

No, there are real human shields, at least in the context of a missile war. The Palestinians have fired from population centers for "protection" (or sympathy) in the past.

THEGODDAMNBATMA posted...

It's cute that you think the people who are constantly being attacked and having their land stolen are the ones that need to stop attacking.

There is no end to the history that could get brought up here. The paradox that baffles me is that the people who criticize the Palestinians most strongly (I hate to put it in these terms, but yes: far right conservatives) are also the same people who would never in a million years accept a different group of people displacing them from their home in the way the Israelis did. They would act in exactly the same way as the Palestinians are should their roles somehow be reversed.

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THEGODDAMNBATMA posted...

It's cute that you think the people who are constantly being attacked and having their land stolen are the ones that need to stop attacking.

They're being retaliated against, not attacked. They lose land because they keep instigating territory wars and Israel isn't going to take the cost of war without some spoils in the end.

wpot posted...

I note you say "peace" and not "a country or real representation". That's true.

They have a country and representation there, if they stop warring they get to keep it.

wpot posted...

we'll just keep creep further and further into your land while otherwise continuing the status quo.

That happens due to war, not Israel moving the border in peace time like Russia.

wpot posted...

It's possible that the Palestinians could choose to be the 'adult in the room' first by calming down in other scenarios, but they have no opportunity to do so with the current government.

Palestine chooses to be represented by children, that's their problem.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

They have a country

Ummm...no, they do not. They are not sovereign...they live in a rump state within Israel that has no natural resources and a quasi-government.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

That happens due to war, not Israel moving the border in peace time like Russia.

Either you don't understand the settlements or that's extremely disingenuous. The Israeli settlers are settling within the East Bank with the clear/admitted purpose of claiming the land for themselves...that's not really debatable. it's a different mechanism than Russia, but exactly the same intent.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Palestine chooses to be represented by children, that's their problem.

I meant there is no opportunity with the current Israeli government. Palestinians...who knows?

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wpot posted...

Ummm...no, they do not. They are not sovereign..

They were offered that, if they stop warring then it's an option?

wpot posted...

they live in a rump state within Israel that has no natural resources and a quasi-government.

They aren't owed resources lol They're allowed to exist, that should be enough.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

They're allowed to exist, that should be enough.

...there it is: "we didn't kill you; you should be grateful". That mindset only leads to one end.

I'm bored of this and ready to sleep. If you'd like to continue the conversation tomorrow I'd like some thoughtful replies to these comments of mine:

wpot posted...

Your fantasy ends with Israel taking control over the remaining Palestinians territory. Even if that somehow occurred...THEN what? Israel would be directly governing a group of people larger than them who want nothing to do with them and denying them representation. How would that be stable (or desirable) in the long term? Do they think they can turn them into Israelis like themselves? Do they plan to kill them all? I really don't understand the mindset of people who think that conflicts like this can be "won" or ended with some sort of territorial take over.

wpot posted...

There is no end to the history that could get brought up here. The paradox that baffles me is that the people who criticize the Palestinians most strongly (I hate to put it in these terms, but yes: far right conservatives) are also the same people who would never in a million years accept a different group of people displacing them from their home in the way the Israelis did. They would act in exactly the same way as the Palestinians are should their roles somehow be reversed.

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wpot posted...

...there it is: "we didn't kill you; you should be grateful". That mindset only leads to one end.

Peace. Either Palestine accepts the territory it has or it's wiped out and there's no opposing force left.

wpot posted...

Your fantasy ends with Israel taking control over the remaining Palestinians territory. Even if that somehow occurred...THEN what? Israel would be directly governing a group of people larger than them who want nothing to do with them and denying them representation. How would that be stable (or desirable) in the long term? Do they think they can turn them into Israelis like themselves? Do they plan to kill them all? I really don't understand the mindset of people who think that conflicts like this can be "won" or ended with some sort of territorial take over.

Displace them. Just as the world accepted millions of Syrian refugees, it can accept Palestinian ones. I'd rather they just kept their land and tried peace but it doesn't look like Palestine is that forward thinking.

wpot posted...

There is no end to the history that could get brought up here. The paradox that baffles me is that the people who criticize the Palestinians most strongly (I hate to put it in these terms, but yes: far right conservatives) are also the same people who would never in a million years accept a different group of people displacing them from their home in the way the Israelis did. They would act in exactly the same way as the Palestinians are should their roles somehow be reversed.

I wouldn't attack a force far stronger than my own, I wouldn't attack civilians and I wouldn't use my friends and family as fodder. There's no means to regain what is lost, but there is means to gain peace and start rebuilding. Palestine has no option more productive than accepting their lot in life, resistance is only causing trouble for those who have to live through the suffering. Israel does not have to tolerate abuse from anybody as it has the strength to enforce its claims. Despite this superior strength they don't abuse their power to claim the entire region, they're being reasonable by not crushing their opponents who threaten their lives and land and so the rest of the world has no beef with Israel.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Either Palestine accepts the territory it has or it's wiped out and there's no opposing force left.

Palestine has no army, per se. It's "force" is integrated into it's population. You know what you're saying, don't you?

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Displace them. Just as the world accepted millions of Syrian refugees, it can accept Palestinian ones.

Ah, yes...pushing them out: that's always a good practical option. That seemed to work out pretty well for the world when it was Syrians. Or perhaps the world is correct to encourage Israel and the Palestinians to make a real attempt at a solution that ends the problem, not shifts it once again.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

I wouldn't attack a force far stronger than my own, I wouldn't attack civilians and I wouldn't use my friends and family as fodder. There's no means to regain what is lost, but there is means to gain peace and start rebuilding.

Nice sentiment, and perhaps that is what you would do. I don't know your politics. But let's be honest, if the right wing in the US were pushed out of their homes, they would do anything possible to regain them. Elements within them would fight as dirty as the elements in the Palestinians who are fighting now, and the most extreme "elements" often set the course of the whole in a conflict. Are you really going to try an argue there would be a difference?

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Israel does not have to tolerate abuse from anybody as it has the strength to enforce its claims. Despite this superior strength they don't abuse their power to claim the entire region, they're being reasonable by not crushing their opponents who threaten their lives and land and so the rest of the world has no beef with Israel.

"Might makes right", eh? If you're strong, you're reasonable if you do anything other than kill everyone. Again, that's not logic that leads to any productive ends.

The big picture over all of this is that a choice for conflict and war (regardless of the background of the conflict) will always result in more conflict and war. This isn't the middle ages where conflicts could be ended by wars and territorial gain. Villagers/the greater population largely didn't care who their overlord was back then, nor did they perceive any reason to be in conflict with villages far away. This is the modern world, where the internet exists and nationalism appears permanent. Populations who lose their representation do not go away but instead remain a permanent problem. Have we learned nothing from the Vietnams, Afghanistans (USSR and US versions), Iraqs, etc etc? Might can't change what a population wants...or will seek in perpetuity. Using force to "crush" someone is a temporary feel-good measure in the big picture. It's not a solution.

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Blightzkrieg posted...

He's Canadian, so he doesn't have his lips sewn to Israel's ballsack quite so tightly.

Uhm... not too familiar with Canadian politics are you?

wpot posted...

Your view is Palestinians = unredeemably bad

no, that's you strawmanning because you can't justify your nonsense so like a typical liberal you start putting words in my mouth to argue with because you can't deal with the real words coming outta my mouth, palestinians can always choose to act differently, the reality is they don't. in fact i said exactly this in a previous post aimed at you so are you even reading what i write or do you have a problem reading or what?

wpot posted...

Your fantasy ends with Israel taking control over the remaining Palestinians territory.

lol where did i say anything like this, either quote where i said these things or apologize for putting words in my mouth on purpose and strawmanning
here is a reminder of strawman just for you
strawman
an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
wpot posted...

there isn't much point in debating the core point further in this environment.

you mean where there is dissenting views and not your usual liberal hivemind where they ban anyone right of center? you mean that environment?lol

"The Palestinian position has been that Israel should be wiped off the map, but that is not a 100% firm belief among their populace."
how many percent is it then? if it's the minority then how come you yourself just stated it is "the palestinian position"????? god help me with this broken logic i can't even...

i also love how you keep moving the goalposts and completely ignore all of your former points i commented on

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wpot posted...

Palestine has no army, per se. It's "force" is integrated into it's population. You know what you're saying, don't you?

Keep shooting missiles back until they stop attacking for good. If that ends up killing every single person there then every single person chose war over peace and so their death isn't all that sad.

wpot posted...

Ah, yes...pushing them out: that's always a good practical option. That seemed to work out pretty well for the world when it was Syrians. Or perhaps the world is correct to encourage Israel and the Palestinians to make a real attempt at a solution that ends the problem, not shifts it once again.

Palestinians only want to attack Israel. If they're pushed out of the region then they're no longer able to keep attacking. The problem has been solved, it only causes a secondary issue dispersed across the entire world, which makes it easier to handle than leaving it to Israel alone.

wpot posted...

let's be honest, if the right wing in the US were pushed out of their homes, they would do anything possible to regain them.

Let's be honest, the right cries for second amendment rights but never uses it when percieved tyranny occurs. They wouldn't do a thing because most people don't want war. Palestinians are born in war so it's normal for them, that doesn't make it okay though.

wpot posted...

Are you really going to try an argue there would be a difference?

See above; people are defined by the times they were raised in. First world people barely know violence, let alone war, so they won't attack.

wpot posted...

"Might makes right", eh? If you're strong, you're reasonable if you do anything other than kill everyone. Again, that's not logic that leads to any productive ends.

That's not what I'm saying. Israel specifically avoids starting conflict despite the means to win, yet Palestine choses to challenge them to a contest of strength. When they do this Israel is under no obligation to hold back, so anything less than glassing the whole strip is tolerance. They show tolerance to terrorists, they're more tolerant to this kind of BS than the US so they can definitely hold a strong moral stance.

wpot posted...

The big picture over all of this is that a choice for conflict and war (regardless of the background of the conflict) will always result in more conflict and war.

That has never been true, particularly in modern times. Being merciful (or frugal), allowing the enemy combatant stay standing results in more conflict and war. A single night of fire to avoid a year of tit for tat artillery tennis. You must destroy the morale of your opponent by completely overwhelming them to gain a psychological victory. Half-arsed attempts just help justify a military industrial complex, it does nothing to win ground. All you achieve by going soft is give your opponent the impression they might be able to win if they push harder.

Israel is pushing as hard as it can considering its situation. If it did a full-on terror campaign to kill Palestine's morale, it would be entirely undermined if the west withdrew support. They're in a ridiculous situation where they cannot remove a threat to their very existence without tanking decades of attacks because everyone else is obsessed with moral posturing.

wpot posted...

This isn't the middle ages where conflicts could be ended by wars and territorial gain. Villagers/the greater population largely didn't care who their overlord was back then

They absolutely cared, more so than now. Who your Duke/Baron/Count was would determine how much money you'd be shaken down for, how much free labour you were expected to give and how fucked your wife was. Territory claims were a massive deal, but thankfully back then France couldn't tell your King not to take back land from a despotic count.
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wpot posted...

This is the modern world, where the internet exists and nationalism appears permanent. Populations who lose their representation do not go away but instead remain a permanent problem.

Israel offered them their own country and they said no, so what you're saying is that Israel just has to accept its neighbour wants to kill them for the rest of time and let them, or invite them in to just kill them all in one go.

It's a permanent problem only if you allow it.

wpot posted...

Have we learned nothing from the Vietnams, Afghanistans (USSR and US versions), Iraqs, etc etc? Might can't change what a population wants...or will seek in perpetuity.

We should have learnt that the land is garbage and left it alone, but there was other politics involved that motivated them much more than the official goal.

The only thing I'm learning is that some people will abuse absolutely anything to get their way and nobody has the balls to tell them to go fuck themselves for fear of an actually important country flexing on them.

wpot posted...

Using force to "crush" someone is a temporary feel-good measure in the big picture. It's not a solution, unless you're seeking "simple" regime change in favor of...whatever the population wants.

What the population of Israel wants is for Palestine to fuck off. The appropriate regime change is hellfire raids across the strip to reduce enemy combatants to near nil.

Here's a hot take: Palestine refuses offers of sovereign territory because they don't want to be held accountable for the war crimes and human rights violations they're guilty of in their attempt to destroy Israel.
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I am aware of what a strawman argument is, yes. I am not trying to pretend you believe something you don't, I am trying to point out that your power-based logic and short-term view of the situation really only leads to one conclusion in the end, whether you realize it or not.

Please understand I am not arguing that the Palestinians are the good actors here. They use terrorist tactics, they have a corrupt (quasi) government, their rhetoric is extreme and problematic, etc etc. That's all true. I'm also very much agreeing with you that the Israelis have all of the the military and organizational power, clearly.

It's about the big picture. It's about practicality. It's "what kind of territory do you want to have in 50 years?" My past question, which I don't believe you answered, is what stable/good result is going to come out of the current situation...or from Israel throwing their weight around even more? You could say "Israel is only acting in a way that is right given that they are threatened", which we could debate. But even if that were fully true and their actions are 100% justified, those actions are not going to solve their security problem with the Palestinians...as has been proven over the past 70 years. Other actions might.

Either party could be the one to offer an olive branch seek a real solution, yes, but I frankly expect more from Israel: they have the power and they ultimately initiated the entire situation. They are undergoing terrorist attacks, sure, but they can't claim moral superiority in the situation: they displaced the population without consideration to start the scenario. I see you didn't comment about how right-wingers would behave if they were in the Palestinians' shoes.

If there's something in particular I didn't address that you'd like me to I'd be happy to do so, but I felt I hit the appropriate, non-argumentative points related to my long-term view of the situation.

P.S. I'll be going camping this weekend, so please don't interpret my disappearance as a sign I've given up and accepted your logic.

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Keep shooting missiles back until they stop attacking for good. If that ends up killing every single person there then every single person chose war over peace and so their death isn't all that sad.

I read the rest of what you posted, but if this is where you start...then we aren't going to get any further here. We have different views and different morals.

Oh, but I can't help myself. I just have to add two more things, then get some work done so I can camp:

Kyuubi4269 posted...

wpot posted...

let's be honest, if the right wing in the US were pushed out of their homes, they would do anything possible to regain them.

Let's be honest, the right cries for second amendment rights but never uses it when percieved tyranny occurs.

So far their 'perceived tyranny' in the US relates to welfare programs, government land rights, attempts to solve environmental problems, etc. Is their reaction to that "tyranny" comparable to how they would act if displaced from their homes??

Kyuubi4269 posted...

It's a permanent problem only if you allow it.

There's a quick solution only if it involves killing everyone.

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wpot posted...

So far their 'perceived tyranny' in the US relates to welfare programs, government land rights, attempts to solve environmental problems, etc. Is their reaction to that "tyranny" comparable to how they would act if displaced from their homes??

People are literally displaced from their homes in land grabs, Police take more stuff from people's homes than burglars do, they have their speech suppressed by the law for offending protected groups, regularly restrictions are placed on the second amendment to make weapons even less capable of fighting against government tyranny, etc.

They'll scream blue murder in every instance but it isn't in them to fire the first shot, they're raised first world so they don't know how to determine when they're justified taking action. Just like you, every act of aggression has been drilled in to them as a dire evil and at risk of being imprisoned for the rest of their life. They don't know when they're in the right to enact their rights.

The opposite is true in Palestine where shit-talking leads to shots fired and the local hospital blown up, proportionality doesn't exist to them. Israel sits in a neat position where they are civil with eachother and the international community, but Palestine and Turkey threatens their lives. They have experience in their lives of what is intolerable evil or a mild slight, they probably have the most accurate scale of proportionality due to having all aspects of life thrust upon them. They dance the unenviable dance between socialising on the global stage and brawling on the front lines and so they should be respected for managing to deal with that as well as they do.

wpot posted...

There's a quick solution only if it involves killing everyone.

That's the only solution available to Israel. Palestine can back down and take their free land but they're committed to the war, unfortunately.

I'd rather Israel terrified Palestine in to compliance but nobody will let them.
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honestly why should the US be backing either side of a holy war on the other side of the world

its all done just to garner support from evangelical Christians that get off on the idea of conflict in the area starting judgement day

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Mead posted...

honestly why should the US be backing either side of a holy war on the other side of the world

Because Israel is a productive modern country contributing to the global economy while Palestine is a disruptive force like ISIS or antifa.
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