Poll of the Day > Explain the Kyle thingy to me?

(+) Yeah! (+)

ClarkDuke posted...

dumpsters are people too, ok?

You can't just go around putting out peoples dumpster fires Willy nilly. Thats oppressive to the arsonists.

OhhhJa posted...

I'd put money on that he walks. Im sure you'll say it's because he's white though right?

I dont think hes going to walk. I dont believe theres enough to get convicted of murder 1 but manslaughter charges sticking are pretty likely. One problem his defense is going to face during trial is how he ran away from the scene of the first shooting. The right thing to do was to stay at the scene, call the cops, and wait for it to get sorted out. Running away just caused confusion and actively led to the second shooting. Personally I dont think he should have been out there in that situation in the first place. While not all, a large majority of 17 year olds are still rather immature and do not make the best decisions. Even though the first shooting does appear to be in self defense, his actions led to the death of individuals that could have been avoided had he handled himself differently.

hungrymike posted...

You can't just go around putting out peoples dumpster fires Willy nilly. Thats oppressive to the arsonists.

"We worked hard on those fires, you big meanie!"

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GameLord113 posted...

One problem his defense is going to face during trial is how he ran away from the scene of the first shooting. The right thing to do was to stay at the scene, call the cops, and wait for it to get sorted out. Running away just caused confusion and actively led to the second shooting.

The video shows him sticking around and making a phone call though until an angry mob starts chasing him

GameLord113 posted...

I dont believe theres enough to get convicted of murder 1 but manslaughter charges sticking are pretty likely.

Maybe if they don't make the mistake of overcharging. If they shoot for murder 1 or even murder 2, I think he likely walks

Lokarin posted...

I mean, if he lived in the town then I could see that - but I don't see the need to go somewhere else to defend something else, unless maybe it was his family business and such

shouldn't you protect fellow americans from rioters and looters?
anyway you can easily watch the videos and make your own mind in the usual place where they care about facts, which is the shapiro show
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFQP6dTZG3k

Mead posted...

he was a minor, armed illegally, that made a bad situation worse
these armed right wingers dont protect neighborhoods, they escalate situations and ignite a powder keg

Imagine being so pathetically inadequate that you would protect a Registered Sex Offender, Former Burglar, and a Habitual Domestic Assaulter all to frame a 17-year old that was trying to protect himself from being beaten/ killed. This is such a clear case of self-defense that you could teach classes using the video of what happened.
Then again democrats are the pro criminal party so...

Even destiny who i view as a rabid leftist defended kyle against vaush (who a lot of people here in potd seem to admire and idolize) in a pretty heated debate, i recommend everyone no matter their political affiliation to watch that debate because it really puts on display leftist logic and how literally insane it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_0R_aiPb-s

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Wanded posted...

anyway you can easily watch the videos and make your own mind in the usual place where they care about facts, which is the shapiro show

deaf ears bro...

No "Leftist" here is going to sit through a 16 minute video full of FACTS, they'd rather plug their ears and chant LALALALALA....for one, they can't retain their attention span long enough, and second, feelings won't be insulated

Third, ANTIFA exists because of Shapiro (and a few other IDW-types)....Think Neo vs. Agent Smith...... One guy who is well above being knowledgable on many things, well educated, well spoken,.....vs. Legions of NPCs who can't compete with his mental kung-fu, all they do is multiply and destroy like a virus....but have you tried to explain to a virus what they are? Here on any board on gFAQs? Doesn't work most of the time...and if it did, the moderators will Gobbell the site before the point is proven factually.

TLDR: Shapiro makes sense 9 times out of 10, better that some deranged lefty making sense 1 out of 10 times; and that makes them jealous.


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Lmfao dude is seriously still posting Ben Shapiro on potd

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Wanded posted...

where they care about facts, which is the shapiro show

https://i.imgflip.com/306qkd.jpg

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Joker_X_II posted...

No "Leftist" here is going to sit through a 16 minute video full of FACTS

yet they spend more than 16 minutes reading articles trying to find said facts on a dozen other outlets via google, not very time efficient...

either way i posted a debate about the incident from two leftists as well, if they won't watch at least that then there really is no salvation for them

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Lokarin posted...

https://i.imgflip.com/306qkd.jpg

see, that's why you can never find the facts you are looking for and keep wasting your time.

can you show me one thing which is incorrect in the video i posted?
@Mead same

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Wanded posted...

see, that's why you can never find the facts you are looking for and keep wasting your time.

can you show me one thing which is incorrect in the video i posted?
@Mead same

I didn't watch, I went for the joke first - I might watch later

also

> shouldn't you protect fellow americans from rioters and looters?

I can agree with this, and if you want to do that........ join the police!

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Mead posted...

he was a minor, armed illegally, that made a bad situation worse

these armed right wingers dont protect neighborhoods, they escalate situations and ignite a powder keg

This. You have a duty to retreat. It's in the law. If SirPikachu's summary (post #6) is true, then the person he killed is second degree murder, while the other two people he shot was self-defense. The reason why the first one was murder is because he was the instigator. The reason why the other two were self-defense is because he did try to retreat, but his attackers pursued him. In this case, the rioters were in the wrong (it's them who had a duty to retreat). With a very good lawyer, he could potentially get manslaughter instead of second degree murder. With a very bad lawyer and a good prosecutor, he could get first degree murder as there's a case for him having premeditated it, due to him approaching the rioters with a weapon and with the intention of stopping them.

OhhhJa posted...

There's nothing inherently wrong with protecting a business from rioting/looting which is, truth be told, why most people are mad saying he shouldnt have been there

No, you should call the police. That's literally what you're supposed to do. Taking things in your own hands is never a good idea and can make things even worse. Please read on the duty to retreat and its exception known as the castle doctrine, which didn't apply here.

Mead posted...

his mom actually drove him

Wow, what an irresponsible parent! I hope she gets tried for endangering her child and planning a massacre.

Joker_X_II posted...

You guys forgot the part where the people killed was a convicted pedophile, a convicted wife-beater, and a convicted burglar (with an illegal firearm)

That's irrelevant. A victim's criminal past doesn't change the fact that they were murdered.

OhhhJa posted...

Not to mention, the logic applied saying that he shouldnt be there absolutely applies to a large percentage of protesters and rioters that actually get on planes to fly several states away or across the country to intentionally engage in assholery.

It doesn't matter if the other side was also in the wrong. You can't do your own justice. Vigilantism is illegal for a very good reason.

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why would I waste my time watching the video of some twerp that is a laughing stock of the entire internet after all the times hes been proven wrong and just arguing in bad faith in order to rile up his army of neckbeards, especially when youre losing your shit accusing me of defending individuals that I have at no point defended. If they were rioters then they should have been arrested and prosecuted, and theyd still be alive to potentially face punishment if numbnuts Kyle hadnt had his mommy drive him to his boogaloo boys meetup so that he could valiantly protect a random ass car dealership

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Accrovideogames posted...

The reason why the first one was murder is because he was the instigator.

This is patently false. The video itself shows a pretty complicated scenario playing out and we probably don't have all the details. Clearly, shots are fired while Kyle is being chased although not from the guy chasing him. It's quite possible that he thought the guy chasing him fired the shots

OhhhJa posted...

This is patently false

I would argue it's neither, that it's up to the court to decide.

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Accrovideogames posted...

That's irrelevant. A victim's criminal past doesn't change the fact that they were murdered.

Try quoting the entire post for the BIG PICTURE you failed to address.

I also said:

..if a claim of self-defense is going to be made, they have to establish reason to use self-defense in the first place. Kyle (most likely) will say that his opponents were being life-threateningly aggressive to him, especially running in a pack during the riots, so the counter-argument would have to land on the prosecution to deliver character witnesses which speaking against their aggressiveness; the DA would have to prove they were inherently good innocent kind people who were there in "peaceful protest", and Kyle gunned them down without remorse first.

However, the reality is that the people that were killed we're NOT "inherently good innocent people", the were outcasts of society (re: Losers) looking for a fight. Their past history WILL become a point of interest if Kyle's defense accuse them of being naturally aggressive as they always been in their lives.

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Lokarin posted...

join the police!

leftists wanna dismantle the police though

the issue is the police aren't doing their job in stopping riots and looting, you can see that is the case because we're having riots and looting for over 3 months straight at this point, the reason for that is, like i told Mead before in a different topic making him go quiet, is that the democrat mayors and officials of the blue cities being burned down ordered their police force to stand down and do nothing, so if you're a policeman wanting to defend private property you can't, you'll get into legal trouble for going against orders.
video of minority shop owner (blm and antifa really love targeting minority owned small businesses) talking about his shop being looted while police simply watched
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfFIzEuGtUM

It's the job of the government to protect your life and your property > they aren't doing that (trump wants to send federal agents and democrats keep stopping him although about 40 people already died) > the only option left is to then protect these things yourself using the second amendment (which democrats also wanna dismantle)


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Wanded posted...

leftists wanna dismantle the police though

they dont, but hey if you wanna argue against a weak strawman instead of discussing things like an adult thats cool too

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OhhhJa posted...

This is patently false. The video itself shows a pretty complicated scenario playing out and we probably don't have all the details. Clearly, shots are fired while Kyle is being chased although not from the guy chasing him. It's quite possible that he thought the guy chasing him fired the shots

Hey, I clearly specified in my post (which you left out in the quote) that I was only basing my analysis on what SirPikachu said in post #6. If something is wrong, then you should blame him for not telling the truth, not me.

Joker_X_II posted...

Try quoting the entire post for the BIG PICTURE you failed to address. [...] However, the reality is that the people that were killed we're NOT "inherently good innocent people", the were outcasts of society (re: Losers) looking for a fight. Their past history WILL become a point of interest if Kyle's defense accuse them of being naturally aggressive as they always been in their lives.

Oh, I did read it. I just wanted to point out that someone's past is irrelevant. It was meant as a continuation of my post, i.e. my objective view on how the law works. Of course, if the prosecutor wants to portray those rioters (who are obviously bad people for rioting, irrelevantly of the fact they have criminal antecedents or not) as peaceful, then he/she is an idiot and deserves losing his/her job. However, its only use is to help prove self-defense, which is going to be hard considering Kyle was the instigator and is guilty of vigilantism, hence why I said it's irrelevant.

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Mead posted...

If they were rioters then they should have been arrested and prosecuted

The democrats you keep shilling for and are voting for keep telling the police not to arrest them and setting them free from hail, 13 people from your idol biden have paid to free rioters from jail back to the street.

please respond to this point instead of running away.

Mead posted...

some twerp that is a laughing stock of the entire internet

i think you mean the niche leftist hivemind bubbles you hang in, because his videos have millions of views and have 95%+ upvotes so...?
Ben shapiro skipped two classes, became the youngest nationally syndicated columnist in the United States at age 17, graduated from harvard law, is a self made millionaire, wrote 14 books 3 of which reached best seller status, opened his own media outlet and is doing one of the most successful podcasts in the US (ranked number 2 during 2019)

if that resume = "some twerp"....what does that make you exactly? what did you do?lol

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Accrovideogames posted...

Oh, I did read it. I just wanted to point out that someone's past is irrelevant. It was meant as a continuation of my post, i.e. my objective view on how the law works. Of course, if the prosecutor wants to portray those rioters (who are obviously bad people for rioting, irrelevantly of the fact they have criminal antecedents or not) as peaceful, then he/she is an idiot and deserves losing his/her job. However, its only use is to help prove self-defense, which is going to be hard considering Kyle was the instigator and is guilty of vigilantism, hence why I said it's irrelevant.

But it is relevant, because as you said the defense will portray the dead as animals, it will come to light that Kyle's life was in danger in the face of a convicted pedophile, a convicted wife-beater, and a convicted thief brandishing his own illegal firearm, all of who were jacked up on adrenaline already because of the riots.....3 convicts vs. a 17 year old kid exercising his constitutional rights? He knew what he had to do...

Can't prove he was there to instigate though, no one can. I mean, granted you might see a rifle as an act of aggression, but the fact is Kyle's position was more of a defensive deterrent than being on the offensive.

He came there to protect his friends/family's business. ANTIFA might be quick to assume he was there looking for a fight, because he brought a rifle into the mix, but in reality he was there to hold the line. And if ANTIFA was crossing that line, he was ready to do what was needed,... to defend his position, protecting what's his...

Granted if the people Kyle killed were more "innocent", like a college girl, or high-school cheerleader, or single-mom working an office job, and none of them had records of any kind, it would be a harder sell for self-defense because we're talking two good people with different motives on the same issue.....except if that was the case Kyle wouldn't have any reason to shoot them because they would inherantly be more passive in the confrontation; at worse the single-mom and the cheerleader would just cuss at him and walk away. because they would've pegged him as a 2A-nut itching to fire at someone, they knew facing-off with him would put their own lives in danger....which is exactly what Kyle wanted....to be that deterrent.....except the pedo, wife- beater, and thief with a gun didn't see it like that,....they saw a "fascist", and wanted to "punch a Nazi", because their own lives are shit they needed to feel righteous in their own way, looking for that catharsis....so Kyle took steps, did what he had to.

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Mead posted...

they dont, but hey if you wanna argue against a weak strawman instead of discussing things like an adult thats cool too

https://youtu.be/sZfg3SElvmQ?t=1102

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfIVlUzVneo





when are you going to stop lying mead?


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Joker_X_II posted...

Can't prove he was there to instigate though, no one can. I mean, granted you might see a rifle as an act of aggression, but the fact is Kyle's position was more of a defensive deterrent than being on the offensive. He came there to protect his friends/family's business. ANTIFA might be quick to assume he was there looking for a fight, because he brought a rifle into the mix, but in reality he was there to hold the line. And if ANTIFA was crossing that line, he was ready to do what was needed,... to defend his position, protecting what's his...

But vigilantism is criminal, so Kyle was in the wrong. The correct way to face the situation would have been to call the police and let them handle it, not go there armed with the hope of stopping the riot yourself. As soon as Kyle started running away however, and realized his mistake, the roles switched. The rioters were now the ones who had a duty to retreat, but they chose to pursue. Everything Kyle did after that to protect himself is justified self-defense. There are exceptions to the duty to retreat, but none of them applied in this situation.

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Accrovideogames posted...

But vigilantism is criminal, so Kyle was in the wrong. The correct way to face the situation would have been to call the police and let them handle it, not go there armed with the hope of stopping the riot yourself.

not being able to call the police is why this whole thing started. the police arnt going to be there to save those businesses nor quell the riots or if they are its going to be too late. thats why the militias were there to deter and why businesses are turning to them.

Accrovideogames posted...

But vigilantism is criminal, so Kyle was in the wrong.

It's not vigilantism...it was self-defense.

If it was vigilantism, Kyle would've brought more ammo, and RAMBO the fuck out of all rioters. Because in his mind, no one in the crowd would be innocent. "You're a rioter, you're dead"

The reality was, he was drawing a line, and ANTIFA crossed it....so he defended himself.

"Call the Cops!?!?!".....seriously? You clearly have no idea what's going on, when you think the cops are able to show up "Johnny on the spot" as the kid was being shot and beaten by his own gun in the time it would've taken for the cops to show......Riots occur when the system fails on both sides....Kyle did what he had to, if no one else was there to help.

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Wanded posted...

when are you going to stop lying mead?

youre the one trying to define half the nation by a handful of delusional extremists

weak tea my dude

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Wanded posted...

keep telling the police not to arrest them

you keep calling me a liar so why dont you go ahead and post a clip of any prominent Democratic politician saying that people that destroy private property or steal things should not be arrested

you are living in a damn fantasy land if you actually think this shit is true. Anyone rioting or looting instead of protesting peacefully should be held accountable by the law, not a bunch of dumbshits from the alt-right.

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Dark_Spiret posted...

not being able to call the police is why this whole thing started. the police arnt going to be there to save those businesses nor quell the riots or if they are its going to be too late. thats why the militias were there to deter and why businesses are turning to them.

isn't this why businesses have insurance? i would imagine a militia would potentially cause issues with insurance claims, ok?

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ClarkDuke posted...

isn't this why businesses have insurance? i would imagine a militia would potentially cause issues with insurance claims, ok?

under normal circumstances possibly, but we are also in a bad time for the economy. can those businesses afford to pay those costs and deductibles? can they risk losing dozens maybe even hundreds of jobs that can cause a mountain of issues for their familys?

Dark_Spiret posted...

under normal circumstances possibly, but we are also in a bad time for the economy. can those businesses afford to pay those costs and deductibles? can they risk losing dozens maybe even hundreds of jobs that can cause a mountain of issues for their familys?

your response is a hypothetical, in times like these insurance would be a must with the fears of looters, ok?

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Mead posted...

you keep calling me a liar so why dont you go ahead and post a clip of any prominent Democratic politician saying that people that destroy private property or steal things should not be arrested

you are living in a damn fantasy land if you actually think this shit is true. Anyone rioting or looting instead of protesting peacefully should be held accountable by the law, not a bunch of dumbshits from the alt-right.

Show me a democrat or your idol joe biden condemning antifa or blm, saying "i'm against bad things" is saying nothing, you have to pinpoint the exact problem, democrat weasels are purposely not pointing to the core of the problem.
i asked you to provide this for weeks at this point and i'm still waiting....why won't they condemn antifa and blm mead? why?
Democrat mayor ted wheeler declined trumps offer to send federal agents to stop the riots and looting, why is that mead?

also you just called this 17 year old kid who apparantly medically treated protesters and posted pro blm stuff, hence definitely not right wing, alt right...which means racist and a nazi, which doesn't surprise me one bit considering you also previously said ben shapiro, who is an orthodox jew for crying out loud, alt right as well.
^this clearly shows that if someone here is not to be taken seriously, it's you, mead.


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ClarkDuke posted...

insurance would be a must with the fears of looters

what about the fact insurances spiked their prices because of the rioters and looters?

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Ya, I disagree with Ben Shapiro but he's not alt-right... he's trad-right, just like his much cuter sister Abby.

Fun Fact: Mara Wilson is his cousin

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Wanded posted...

alt right...which means racist and a nazi

not necessarily but a large Venn diagram overlap wouldnt surprise me one bit

you also seem to equate Antifa with BLM which is about as ignorant as equating the KKK to the Tea Party movement

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Mead posted...

youre the one trying to define half the nation by a handful of delusional extremists

not half the nation are leftists, maybe about 20%, then you have another 30% of ignorant liberals who follow the mob.
also just to get this straight, is it your position that the huge blm mob booing the mayor in the first video i sent are "delusional extremists"? simple yes or no please.

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Wanded posted...

what about the fact insurances spiked their prices because of the rioters and looters?

what about it, you either protect yourself in times like these or you make an excuse, ok?

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Mead posted...

you also seem to equate Antifa with BLM which is about as ignorant as equating the KKK to the Tea Party movement

They aren't entirely the same but they are both responsible for the rioting and looting and all the overall chaos going on in blue cities currently, i never said they are one and the same or equal, that's just you putting words in my mouth because you have no answer to the actual words from my mouth, which to remind you, are these:

"Show me a democrat or your idol joe biden condemning antifa or blm, saying "i'm against bad things" is saying nothing, you have to pinpoint the exact problem, democrat weasels are purposely not pointing to the core of the problem.
i asked you to provide this for weeks at this point and i'm still waiting....why won't they condemn antifa and blm mead? why?
Democrat mayor ted wheeler declined trumps offer to send federal agents to stop the riots and looting, why is that mead?"

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Wanded posted...

not half the nation are leftists, maybe about 20%, then you have another 30% of ignorant liberals who follow the mob.

a liberal and a leftist are the same thing dude, lol

I think Im about done indulging your silliness

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ClarkDuke posted...

what about it, you either protect yourself in times like these or you make an excuse

and that kid went there to protect property, which is what you just said people should do

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Mead posted...

a liberal and a leftist are the same thing dude, lol

I think Im about done indulging your silliness

no they are not, leftists are progressives who are the militant versions of liberals , a leftist will ban you if he could for saying something he doesn't like, a liberal wouldn't, that's one of the many differences between the two.

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Wanded posted...

no they are not, leftists are progressives who are the militant versions of liberals , a leftist will ban you if he could for saying something he doesn't like, a liberal wouldn't, that's one of the many differences between the two.

Umm... your bias is showing.

A leftist is someone on the left... that's it. The people you are talking about do exist, I call them the alt-left.

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Wanded posted...

and that kid went there to protect property, which is what you just said people should do

i meant figuratively, not literally, ok?

the fact you required my explanation is, well just sad, ok?

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Lokarin posted...

Umm... your bias is showing.

A leftist is someone on the left... that's it. The people you are talking about do exist, I call them the alt-left.

They can't be alt left because they and liberals agree on most things, what they differ on is on how to get said things unlike the normal right and the alt right who disagree on fundemental things and actively battle it out, liberals don't fight what you call "alt left", they blow wind in their sails because they don't know any better, and if they do they are no longer liberal.

https://theconversation.com/the-difference-between-left-and-liberal-and-why-voters-need-to-know-120273
https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/09/12/leftism-not-liberalism-differences/

the terms are indeed pretty murky and people are varied and don't fit the mould but there is a difference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAAgdzEmUAY

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Mead posted...

I think Im about done indulging your silliness

so i get i'm never going to get a straight answer for this am i?

"Show me a democrat or your idol joe biden condemning antifa or blm, saying "i'm against bad things" is saying nothing, you have to pinpoint the exact problem, democrat weasels are purposely not pointing to the core of the problem.
i asked you to provide this for weeks at this point and i'm still waiting....why won't they condemn antifa and blm mead? why?
Democrat mayor ted wheeler declined trumps offer to send federal agents to stop the riots and looting, why is that mead?"

yeah, not surprised.

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Wanded posted...

so i get i'm never going to get a straight answer for this am i?

"Show me a democrat or your idol joe biden condemning antifa or blm, saying "i'm against bad things" is saying nothing, you have to pinpoint the exact problem, democrat weasels are purposely not pointing to the core of the problem.
i asked you to provide this for weeks at this point and i'm still waiting....why won't they condemn antifa and blm mead? why?
Democrat mayor ted wheeler declined trumps offer to send federal agents to stop the riots and looting, why is that mead?"

yeah, not surprised.

last time you posted this I said that it would be good for Biden to condemn antifa by name

to which you had no response

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Dark_Spiret posted...

not being able to call the police is why this whole thing started. the police arnt going to be there to save those businesses nor quell the riots or if they are its going to be too late. thats why the militias were there to deter and why businesses are turning to them.

That doesn't excuse anything. If the police can't do its job, then the government must send the army. If the army can't do its job, then your country no longer exists and total anarchy reigns. It's only then vigilantism become "legal" since the territory would be a lawless zone.

Joker_X_II posted...

It's not vigilantism...it was self-defense.

It certainly wasn't self-defense. When you have the duty to retreat, you must retreat if it's safe to do so. If you don't, you can't use self-defense as a defense. That's how the law works.

"Call the Cops!?!?!".....seriously? You clearly have no idea what's going on, when you think the cops are able to show up "Johnny on the spot" as the kid was being shot and beaten by his own gun in the time it would've taken for the cops to show......Riots occur when the system fails on both sides....Kyle did what he had to, if no one else was there to help.

Whether the cops are to be trusted or not is irrelevant when calling them in this situation is what you're supposed to do. No one was getting shot until Kyle arrived to incite a gang war. Instead of calling the cops, he decided to take things into his own hands and chose to confront the rioters. That's called vigilantism.

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Mead posted...

last time you posted this I said that it would be good for Biden to condemn antifa by name

to which you had no response

so you can't show me democrats condemning antifa or bklm, noted.
my response is why is it important if it's good for biden? it's good for the country because it will help mitigate the chaos going on.
also if he won't condemn antifa will you not vote for him or will you still vote for him?

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Wanded posted...

my response is why is it important if it's good for biden? it's good for the country because it will help mitigate the chaos going on.
also if he won't condemn antifa will you not vote for him or will you still vote for him?

antifa is pretty far down the list on my list of concerns about what is going on in our country nowadays

and if trump actually wanted to do something about them and other extremist groups hed quit sitting on his hands and have his Justice department focus on them instead of having them work as loyally bound PR managers

he wont do that though because he knows most of the extremists are on his side and even his own administrations data reflects that

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*shrug* if we're going to act as though youtube videos from random fucks are good, then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoW796c9380
I think this is a fairly reasonable breakdown of the situation.

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Mead posted...

most of the extremists are on his side

all the rioters and looters burning cities down right now are republicans? pretty sure blm and antifa will all vote for biden unless they are still mad at the nomination being hijacked from bernie sanders in which case they might vote for trump out of spite

also when trump issued federal agents to stop the riots you and other potders called him a fascist, saying that is definitely not okay.
He keeps saying he wants to give federal agents to stop the riots, democrat mayors keep declining, why aren't democrats who own the cities being destroyed doing something about the riots by the way? you keep ignoring this huge thing called federalism, blaming everything on trump in every issue, it's the same with covid, you can't say trump messed up while democrat mayors and governors didn't, they are the ones directly in charge of said places, not trump.

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