Poll of the Day > Is it fair for someone born outside of a culture to.....

(+) Yeah! (+)

.....represent that culture if they have dedicated themselves to learn said culture and respect it? Maybe even adopting it to be their own? By represent it could anything from performing certain music, being a chef for traditional dishes, teaching the language, etc.

This thought came up while I was listening to some Gaelic music and found out there are only some 50-60k Scots who are able to speak that language. It crossed my mind of what if some non-Scot wanted to learn the language and teach it. Would some question that and feel only Scots should be allowed to teach the language?

Now my mind crossed over to Cornelius Boots to apparently received some flak for his performance at E3 in 2018 but he is supposedly one of few dozens of renown musicians for the shakuhachi flute. I recalled my younger self used to think only Japanese chefs are capable sushi chefs but now I feel so long as one has the dedication and skills, one's ethnicity should not matter.

I myself am born American but of Chinese descendants. I do not doubt there are non-Chinese who are more Chinese than me in terms of knowing the culture, food, history, traditions, etc. Being a typical ABC, there are certainly some who speak the language better than me.

Do you believe it fair for someone born outside of a culture to essentially represent that culture through the music their perform, dishes they prepare, classes they teach, festivals they host, etc. if they have dedicated their time to both learn about and respect said culture?

Comments and opinions are appreciated,

Thank you

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First, I'm gonna start by saying that of course anyone CAN do these things. It's not illegal or prohibited; the question is whether it's in good taste or respectful.

Examples of not good taste obviously include things like mockery. But can also include things like poorly representing a culture solely with the intent of exploiting it for monetary gain--particularly when those of the culture being represented are not able to do so themselves (i.e. they lack capital to do do and are not hired to assist).

An example might be if you lived in an area where poor immigrants of a 'novel ethnicity' started moving. If someone with lots of capital opened a hoity toity dining establishment, portraying it as providing authentic < ethnicity's > dining... While not even employing anyone from that ethnicity, then it's exploiting that group. As people are benefiting from that culture, while giving nothing in return to that group.

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I think it's ridiculous -- not to mention racist -- to believe that somebody simply by virtue of birth is more able to perform certain functions associated with the culture of that group than somebody who spent an extensive period of time studying it. While there are certain elements that may not necessarily be internalized unless you grew up in the culture, there's a certain amount of variation within any given culture that at least partly defrays that impact (ie, people will have very different experiences depending on upbringing, education, etc). However, I also believe in the adage "good for the goose, good for the gander" -- anybody protesting the cultural appropriation of one group should object to it happening to ANY culture.

InfestedAdam posted...

I recalled my younger self used to think only Japanese chefs are capable sushi chefs but now I feel so long as one has the dedication and skills, one's ethnicity should not matter.

I think that also ties into the implicit bias towards people looking the part and, for better or worse, uncontrollable characteristics factor into it. If somebody is absolutely phenomenal at something, they also have a reputation to fall back on. In the absence of that, people look for visual cues.

So unfortunately when it comes to sushi chefs, a white or black orphaned child could have been raised from an early age by a Japanese family who owns a sushi shop going back generations but, because of visual cues, a Japanese man with little or no background will seem more like an authority on the subject. (A fact that's sometimes poked fun at in comedies.)

When it comes to using an instrument or cooking food, everything feels like it should be fair game. By contrast, something like folklore should have a greater adherence to tradition no matter who's doing it.

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Clench281 posted...

An example might be if you lived in an area where poor immigrants of a 'novel ethnicity' started moving. If someone with lots of capital opened a hoity toity dining establishment, portraying it as providing authentic < ethnicity's > dining... While not even employing anyone from that ethnicity, then it's exploiting that group. As people are benefiting from that culture, while giving nothing in return to that group.

"Representation" in that cases matters less than authenticity. If the food is actually authentic, it doesn't matter who's making it. And unless the people from that ethnicity are both experts on the cuisine and actually working in the kitchen, hiring people from the group doesn't change the question of authenticity. I've known countless people from certain culture heritages who wouldn't even qualify as amateurs when it comes to making the food associated with their ancestry.

Clench281 posted...

As people are benefiting from that culture, while giving nothing in return to that group.

Nobody owns a culture, and the idea that reparations are somehow owed for making food associated with a culture is ludicrously backwards.

And ideally you WANT people to embrace other cultures, so promoting cultural segregation is generally terrible for society.

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Vikings (and I hate that term because "viking" itself means literally "to walk" like "Volvo" does) wore dreads and braids in battle, but now somehow white people with dreads is "cultural appropriation" because, Jamaica.

I know, I know, shut up white, cis male. Your input is not needed in [current year], but we've reached a point where the Regressive Left has unironically started bringing back segregation to pwn the Trumpanzees. Just ask Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, Cleveland Brown, Apu Nahasapemapatilan, or the Land of Lakes girl.

Wasn't the whole point of acting to be something else?

Not in 2020!

50 years ago a "blacks only" water fountain was grossly offensive. Now it's a badge of pride.

Screw "irish need not apply" signs, get woke bruh!

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I had a French teacher originally from Pennsylvania and one from India. So I don't see a problem if they've dedicated enough time to be an expert on the subject.

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Zeus_LLC posted...

"Representation" in that cases matters less than authenticity. If the food is actually authentic, it doesn't matter who's making it. And unless the people from that ethnicity are both experts on the cuisine and actually working in the kitchen, hiring people from the group doesn't change the question of authenticity. I've known countless people from certain culture heritages who wouldn't even qualify as amateurs when it comes to making the food associated with their ancestry.

If they're doing their due diligence to try and learn how to actually make something 'authentically' (which itself is a debatable thing), sure. Culture (including cuisine) is meant to be shared.

I'm talking more like, someone who hears that korean food is becoming popular and they start advertising their AUTHENTIC KOREAN FRIED CHICKEN with nothing more than a minimal effort soy dipping sauce they bought at Costco to serve with chicken nuggets.

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Yes

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Clench281 posted...

If they're doing their due diligence to try and learn how to actually make something 'authentically' (which itself is a debatable thing), sure. Culture (including cuisine) is meant to be shared.

I'm talking more like, someone who hears that korean food is becoming popular and they start advertising their AUTHENTIC KOREAN FRIED CHICKEN with nothing more than a minimal effort soy dipping sauce they bought at Costco to serve with chicken nuggets.

the Japanese learned Pizza was a thing. Pizza Hut in Japan came up with...i shit you not, a squid ink and corn pizza. it sold like gangbusters. nothing you could come up with could possibly more foreign or not in the spirit of pizza than a combination like that unless we're going with shit like motor oil and glitter. this was just fine.

soy sauce on fried chicken would at least be within the spirit of Chicken Katsu btu orders of magnitude more authentic over squid ink and corn on a pizza, but fuck me Whitey, right?

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Yes but not ypeephole

WhiskeyDisk posted...

the Japanese learned Pizza was a thing. Pizza Hut in Japan came up with...i shit you not, a squid ink and corn pizza. it sold like gangbusters. nothing you could come up with could possibly more foreign or not in the spirit of pizza than a combination like that unless we're going with shit like motor oil and glitter. this was just fine.

soy sauce on fried chicken would at least be within the spirit of Chicken Katsu btu orders of magnitude more authentic over squid ink and corn on a pizza, but fuck me Whitey, right?

If it's being used to mislead people as "try this new dish/preparation so you can experience the same food the same way that AMERICANS eat it" then yeah, I'd also say that's not right. Though generic chain pizza isn't really that ethnically important to most people I'd wager. Maybe there's something in local pizza preferences (deep dish vs new york style) that would get people more up in arms.

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If your culture is child marriage circumcision or anything else degenerate then tough cookies I could care less, I'm not here to patronize you and call you special.

If your culture is cool then tough cookies to anyone who cares. Seriously. This is America. There weren't any English white people here 400 years ago. No one owns it culturally despite what they say. Asian culture in general is very interesting and I like it a lot. I wouldn't mind if an entire state spoke Chinese. I would visit a lot.

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Um, cultural appropriation is a fairly complicated topic, as is what is positive/neutral/negative use of such, but tbh I do not think that it is nearly a big deal as a lot of people make out and, frankly, it's not really feasible for people to stop cultural appropriation in a global economy, especially not when the internet exists. We have more concrete things to put our energy towards.

That said, I see no issue with what you're describing in your first post.

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everybody can do whatever they want as long as they don't infringe others rights
everybody can react to people doing whatever they want however they want as long as they don't infringe others rights

it really is that simple

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idk i just don't personally feel the need to embody or be an authority on cultures that aren't my own, even if i am very interested in learning more about them and perhaps even participating in them.

that's the difference to me. can i learn? yes. can i be really good at it? possibly. will there always be someone from that culture who does it better, or has a more authentic context to it instead of just thinking it's cool or interesting? definitely. but it doesn't really matter because i can still do all those things

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InfestedAdam posted...

Do you believe it fair for someone born outside of a culture to essentially represent that culture through the music their perform, dishes they prepare, classes they teach, festivals they host, etc. if they have dedicated their time to both learn about and respect said culture?

that question actually hides within itself other questions

mainly, if an american goes to china lives there for 2 years and is considered by the state and everybody chinese, then he comes back to america and makes chinese food, is he an outsider ("appropriating culture") making chinese food or a chinese making chinese food ("not appropriating culture"?

if it's the former you're basically saying integration isn't really a thing and people can't become "american"

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Wanded posted...

mainly, if an american goes to china lives there for 2 years and is considered by the state and everybody chinese, then he comes back to america and makes chinese food, is he an outsider ("appropriating culture") making chinese food or a chinese making chinese food ("not appropriating culture"?

that's nationality, we are talking about culture

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TheWitchMorgana posted...

that's nationality, we are talking about culture

so am i?

i need a specific scenerio of what op is talking about then

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Thank you for the responses. Been insightful reading through them.

Zeus_LLC posted...

By contrast, something like folklore should have a greater adherence to tradition no matter who's doing it.

If I understand what you mean, are you suggesting when it comes to folklore, fable stories, tall tales, etc. these should not be adapted to fit within another culture or be made more understandable within that culture? (i.e. a Chinese version of Johnny Appleseed, and American version of Mulan, etc.)

Wanded posted...

mainly, if an american goes to china lives there for 2 years and is considered by the state and everybody chinese, then he comes back to america and makes chinese food, is he an outsider ("appropriating culture") making chinese food or a chinese making chinese food ("not appropriating culture"?

You just reminded me Ivan Orkin. From what I recall from the Netflix's series, Chef, he was born in the States. Studied Japanese and went on to live in Japan for some number of years and opened a successfull ramen business. His goal was not to open a ramen business to serve tourist but to serve Japanese citizens, speak their language, live their lives, etc.

Wanded posted...

i need a specific scenerio of what op is talking about then

Apology but I do not have a specific scenario. This question came up as a random thought. The story bout Cornelius Boots was something that just popped back into my mind and I could not help but wonder what if we took his situation and applied it to other culture, professional fields, positions, etc. How might some others react or how much respect would some people have toward a person's expertise if ethnicity does not align with the culture.

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Clench281 posted...

If it's being used to mislead people as "try this new dish/preparation so you can experience the same food the same way that AMERICANS eat it" then yeah, I'd also say that's not right. Though generic chain pizza isn't really that ethnically important to most people I'd wager. Maybe there's something in local pizza preferences (deep dish vs new york style) that would get people more up in arms.

at the same time, literally none of our "Chinese" food is actually Chinese. those are not steamed dumplings, those are Gyoza. 99.9% of the Japanese restaraunts in America sold or closed in the 1940s. i don't recall the specifics, but apprently the Japanese were like, really realy unpopular here in the 40's for some strange reason...the Chinese immigrants at the time scooped up their businesses, literally in place, overnight, and with stocked freezers for pennies on the dollar and to this day the dishes they typically serve are now what we call "chinese food" despite being as chinese as I am.

i haven't seen any whinging and gnashing of teeth over that wholesale "cultural appropriation" in [current year].

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WhiskeyDisk posted...

i don't recall the specifics, but apprently the Japanese were like, really realy unpopular here in the 40's for some strange reason

Pearl Harbor and WW2.

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SunWuKung420 posted...

Pearl Harbor and WW2.

That was ironic sarcasm Sunny, jeez. Read the room.

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