Current Events > Toxic Masculinity is real

(+) Yeah! (+)

Its not that they haven't experienced it. Everyone has experienced it. People just don't want to accept it is toxic.

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P2E died at the end of 2016
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pinky0926 posted...

The counter argument to that might be that holding specific personality traits up as a matter of gender is the harmful bit regardless of whether it's a good trait or a bad one, however much that might be often or even generally the case. In other words, expecting a person to behave a certain way because of their gender is the damaging bit.

I mean, flip it on its head. If someone tells you it's not right for a man to be creative, or beautiful, or good at cooking, or a good communicator, would that seem fair enough? These can all be understood to be positive traits that women generally possess by proxy of being feminine.

Ok that's all a bit silly and pedestrian. What if someone says that being a good parent is a feminine trait? Or that not being a suspicious person around children is a feminine trait? Like when you get the kids and Karen and Sally say "oh, babysitting tonight?" because haha, men don't make for stable parental figures. Not so silly and pedestrian an assumption anymore.

If the argument is that anything perceived as a toxic masculine trait is really just a toxic trait that men happen to have (and women can easily have just as much), I agree. But I think the point is that this is partly fuelled by a societal expectation on how to behave.

Men don't drop dead from depression or health problems because they are physically incapable of asking for help as men, or that we are just so damn inherently manly that the idea of never going to the doctor is hardwired into our DNA. They drop dead from these things because everyone in their life has always told them that they're not supposed to ask for help.

And on the other hand, if you pick out a positive masculine trait like leadership to say "but here's why it's good to be a man", feminists would argue that all you're really saying is that we shouldn't automatically dismiss women as leadership material on their gender alone, if all this really is is an arbitrary social expectation.

To be frank, we are starting to get into a bit more of a conversation than I can really commit to, when I have to get up for work in 5 hours. So, forgive me if my response here is brief and doesn't address everything you said.

First, I think we would need to distinguish between "should" and "is". I think a lot of these gendered behaviors being categorized as masculine or feminine is just listing observed traits and behaviors that tend to be more frequently displayed by men or women. I dont think its an arbitrary expectation, so much as acknowledging what most tends to be the case, and expecting it because of the observed tendency.

That doesnt mean every individual man or woman does or must embody those traits, but if you observe a group of men and a group of women, you'll likely find that the men tend to display the masculine traits more often and the women tend to display the feminine traits more often.

I would add that I think these traits probably have a natural origin, as they are so often cross-cultural. For example, regardless of where you look in the world, you'll likely find that men tend to be more violent, aggressive, and daring than women. Not a lot of countries where women have done most of the crime and war-fighting. I would acknowledge that societies probably reinforce these traits and behaviors, whether through actually codifying the acceptable behaviors or through people just reacting negatively to individuals who openly display too many traits of the opposite sex, because the unexpected is often uncomfortable.

That said, I also suspect gender activists tend to exaggerate those societal expectations of gendered behavior. From the outside looking in, it sometimes looks like they're basing their ideas off of exagerrated fictional characters. I mean, if society were really so negative on men being creative, emotional, etc. then men with those traits wouldn't so often be rewarded for it. For example, you don't typically hear people shitting on Johnny Cash, Leonard Cohen, Elvis Presley, and Frank Sinatra as being too feminine because they sang some intensely emotional music. Maybe some crustier old bastards, but I dont think they're really the norm.

Think I'll have to cut it off here. I need to get up for work at 0500. Sorry if I didn't touch on everything or my response is otherwise inadequate.