Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 344: Transitional Defense

(+) Yeah! (+)

Corrik7 posted...

Which, of course, were probably in some way at least a little bit due to Operation Warp Speed.

The Pfizer vaccine has zero to do with Operation Warp Speed

No idea about the Moderna one
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Inviso posted...

You A. attributed the Dow Jones' performance to Trump (in a way you seem bizarrely averse to doing when it comes to the overwhelming number of deaths incurred by America during a pandemic, in which he specifically fought against common sense health and safety measures),

This is excellent framing
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Well no, Pfizer definitely had to do with warp speed. They were happy to say they were involved and take 2 billion from the government back in June related to it. They took back what the rep said a few days later, it was a PR game.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

https://twitter.com/amyegardner/status/1328464861454622721?s=21

As always, please transcribe WaPo.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

https://twitter.com/amyegardner/status/1328464861454622721?s=21

the projection is so strong it has become tangible

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Jakyl25 posted...

Did you just totally miss Wangs example

I might have misunderstood Wang's post. It was a bit hard to read.

@Wanglicious

Are you claiming that Trump ordered the military to murder an American girl? Are you claiming that he ordered the military to strike her? Are you arguing that Trump ordered the strike knowingly that an American citizen would be dead as a result of it?

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Jakyl25 posted...

The Pfizer vaccine has zero to do with Operation Warp Speed

No idea about the Moderna one

Corrik once again giving Trump the benefit of the doubt based on non evidence, something he claims to be vehemently against whenever anyone else says anything.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Corrik once again giving Trump the benefit of the doubt based on non evidence, something he claims to be vehemently against whenever anyone else says anything.

https://www.businessinsider.com/moderna-vaccine-trial-was-part-of-trump-operation-warp-speed-2020-11

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Kinglicious posted...

Well no, Pfizer definitely had to do with warp speed. They were happy to say they were involved and take 2 billion from the government back in June related to it. They took back what the rep said a few days later, it was a PR game.

Source? Honestly Ill look this up later if you cant be bothered when I have time because that sort of duplicity interests me, so this is just a polite request and not doubting you.
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Corrik7 posted...

I might have misunderstood Wang's post. It was a bit hard to read.

@Wanglicious

Are you claiming that Trump ordered the military to murder an American girl? Are you claiming that he ordered the military to strike her? Are you arguing that Trump ordered the strike knowingly that an American citizen would be dead as a result of it?

If you accidentally killed someone, you still killed them

The specific word you used was killed not murdered
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In July, Pfizer struck a $1.95 billion deal with the federal government as part of Operation Warp Speed, in an effort to deliver 100 million doses of the vaccine. The money was part of an advance-purchase agreement, meaning Pfizer did not accept government money for vaccine development, unlike other frontrunners Moderna and Astrazeneca. Instead, the money will go toward the manufacturing and distribution of the vaccine.

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Forbes is saying that is not true

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

As always, please transcribe WaPo.

Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger said Monday that he has come under increasing pressure in recent days from fellow Republicans, including Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.), to question the validity of legally cast absentee ballots in an effort to reverse President Trumps narrow loss in the state.

In a wide-ranging interview about the 2020 election, Raffensperger expressed exasperation with a string of baseless allegations coming from Trump and his allies about the integrity of the Georgia results, including claims that Dominion Voting Systems, the Colorado-based manufacturer of Georgias voting machines, is a leftist company with ties to Venezuela that engineered thousands of Trump votes not to be counted.

The atmosphere has grown so contentious, Raffensperger said, that both he and his wife, Tricia, have received death threats in recent days, including a text to him that read, You better not botch this recount. Your life depends on it.

[...]

In the interview, Raffensperger also said he spoke on Friday to Graham, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, who has echoed Trumps unfounded claims about voting irregularities.

In their conversation, Graham questioned Raffensperger about the states signature-matching law and whether political bias could have prompted poll workers to accept ballots with nonmatching signatures, according to Raffensperger. Graham also asked whether Raffensperger had the power to toss all mail ballots in counties found to have higher rates of nonmatching signatures, Raffensperger said.

Raffspenger said he was stunned that Graham appeared to suggest that he find a way to toss legally cast ballots. Absent court intervention, Raffensperger doesnt have the power to do what Graham suggested, as counties administer elections in Georgia.

It sure looked like he was wanting to go down that road, he said.
When asked for comment, a spokesman for Grahams Senate office, Kevin Bishop, referred The Post to a letter from Georgia state Republicans expressing concerns with the audit process, as well as the Collins tweet attacking the secretary of state.

[...]

The secretary of state also warned that the Republican attacks on Dominion voting machines could create issues for the two states two GOP U.S. senators, Loeffler and David Perdue, who face runoffs on Jan. 5. that will be administered using the same Dominion machines.

Over the weekend, social media posts began appearing from Trump supporters questioning whether they feel comfortable using Dominion machines in the two runoff elections, which will determine which party controls the Senate.

I dont think its helpful when you create doubt in the election process, Raffensperger said. People might throw up their arms and say, Why vote?

There's also some stuff with him calling out Doug Collins in particular and a bogus lawsuit by Lin Wood


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Corrik7 posted...

https://www.businessinsider.com/moderna-vaccine-trial-was-part-of-trump-operation-warp-speed-2020-11

Lol you found a source for one vaccine, but your first post said literally probably a little bit due to it, which is undeniably benefit of the doubt.

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Jakyl25 posted...

If you accidentally killed someone, you still killed them

The specific word you used was killed not murdered

Trump orders the military to kill a Terrorist. The military accidentally kills someone in the process.

Who accidentally killed someone?

This isn't rocket science, Jakyl! You don't have to die on this dumb hill! You are smarter than this!

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Corrik7 posted...

In July, Pfizer struck a $1.95 billion deal with the federal government as part of Operation Warp Speed, in an effort to deliver 100 million doses of the vaccine. The money was part of an advance-purchase agreement, meaning Pfizer did not accept government money for vaccine development, unlike other frontrunners Moderna and Astrazeneca. Instead, the money will go toward the manufacturing and distribution of the vaccine.

Yeah, that's called a contract to sell it to the US, which they said. Two very different things.

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Corrik7 posted...

In July, Pfizer struck a $1.95 billion deal with the federal government as part of Operation Warp Speed, in an effort to deliver 100 million doses of the vaccine. The money was part of an advance-purchase agreement, meaning Pfizer did not accept government money for vaccine development, unlike other frontrunners Moderna and Astrazeneca. Instead, the money will go toward the manufacturing and distribution of the vaccine.

Wang's statement was actually false with an element of truth.

We basically have a pre-order agreement with Pfizer for X dollars for distribution of the vaccine.

They didn't actually receive any money(Its money they will receive upon delivery of the vaccine, should it come to that).

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Lol you found a source for one vaccine, but your first post said literally probably a little bit due to it, which is undeniably benefit of the doubt.

It's because I don't know HOW MUCH Operation Warp Speed provides benefits or not. I am sure it does in some way.

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Corrik7 posted...

In July, Pfizer struck a $1.95 billion deal with the federal government as part of Operation Warp Speed, in an effort to deliver 100 million doses of the vaccine. The money was part of an advance-purchase agreement, meaning Pfizer did not accept government money for vaccine development, unlike other frontrunners Moderna and Astrazeneca. Instead, the money will go toward the manufacturing and distribution of the vaccine.

Ok so the development officially had nothing to do with Warp Speed but we know how that works

I retract my statement that Pfizers vaccine had zero to do with Warp Speed
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Jakyl25 posted...

Ok so the development officially had nothing to do with Warp Speed but we know how that works

I retract my statement that Pfizers vaccine had zero to do with Warp Speed

But also technically the right thing to do

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Corrik7 posted...

This isn't rocket science, Jakyl! You don't have to die on this dumb hill! You are smarter than this!

LOL OK Ulti
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Corrik7 posted...

Trump orders the military to kill a Terrorist. The military accidentally kills someone in the process.

Who accidentally killed someone?

This isn't rocket science, Jakyl! You don't have to die on this dumb hill! You are smarter than this!

Whoever gave the order is accountable.

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Edit: Oh, LotM beat me to it.

I'll just add that it also notes that the same day as this talk with Graham that a Trump supporter and lawyer filed a lawsuit to challenge how signatures were checked and also that same day Trump tweeted about signature-matching in Georgia and attacked Raffensperger over it.

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I mean if you wanna give Trump some credit for the lives eventually saved by Moderna's success due to Operation Warp Speed (perhaps fair, though any president would have done something similar), it seems like you should also give him "credit" for the lives lost due to his failures, particularly the ones that were obviously going to be bad as he was doing them like politicizing the virus and refusing to wear a mask even as experts had reversed their recommendations on them.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Yeah, that's called a contract to sell it to the US, which they said. Two very different things.

He asked for a source to what Wang was saying.

That said, I disagree somewhat on it having nothing to do with it.

They agreed to buy it prior which the money creates incentive to create the drug because you know you have a guaranteed buyer. This is what Sony and Microsoft do with AMD. Would AMD create console chips if they didn't have guaranteed contracts? Pfizer likely obviously would have made the vaccine regardless, but the agreement to buy prior at a significant amount lowers their chances to nil of making a bad investment if they were to make a viable vaccine only for someone to make one slightly better and them being left out high and dry in the process with nothing to show for it.

So, I would say there was at least some to do with it.

However, saying Operation Warp Speed had nothing to do with the vaccines about to come to the market is a bit silly.

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Well two different things at play here is that Trump for sure lied about what he said, or also possibly he is too stupid to know the difference. But secondly yeah, you can't say 'nothing' as obviously the richest country in the world with 300m+ people would be in projections when undertaking this, so fair enough.

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https://www.ajc.com/politics/georgia-recount-uncovers-2600-new-votes-in-presidential-race/I75NSPYYGNF43HQZBPYKJWJ5MA/

Georgia recount getting about 800 votes closer.

This is being used by far right Twitter to prove Georgia was rigged, even though the mistake occurred in a deep red county and all other counties that reported have found almost perfectly alignment with their initial counts.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I mean if you wanna give Trump some credit for the lives eventually saved by Moderna's success due to Operation Warp Speed (perhaps fair, though any president would have done something similar), it seems like you should also give him "credit" for the lives lost due to his failures, particularly the ones that were obviously going to be bad as he was doing them like politicizing the virus and refusing to wear a mask even as experts had reversed their recommendations on them.

I think we should give the companies the credit. Trump could have aided them, but at the end of the day, it was the company's workers and ingenuity that will save lives. Don't you agree?

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cnn article covered it well.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/10/politics/fact-check-pfizer-warp-speed-pence/index.html

the statement was, word for word:

"We were never part of the Warp Speed. We have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone."

and that was wrong. they did.
and they took it back a few days later:

"Pfizer is one of various vaccine manufacturers participating in Operation Warp Speed as a supplier of a potential COVID-19 vaccine," Castillo said in an email. "While Pfizer did reach an advanced purchase agreement with the U.S. government, the company did not accept (Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority) funding for the research and development process. All the investment for R&D was made by Pfizer at risk. Dr. Jansen was emphasizing that last point."

and of course a $2 billion payout plays an obvious role to it. and you don't even need to take my opinion of it, 3/4 CNN experts also agreed with it. and really, it's just plain obvious that's how business works and that the initial statement saying they were never part of warp speed, that they never took money, is bullshit. they were, they admit they were in June, they admit they were in a followup statement, it's just a PR game to distance from Trump and people fell for it. big pharma gonna big pharma.

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Wanglicious posted...

cnn article covered it well.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/10/politics/fact-check-pfizer-warp-speed-pence/index.html

the statement was, word for word:

"We were never part of the Warp Speed. We have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone."

and that was wrong. they did.
and they took it back a few days later:

"Pfizer is one of various vaccine manufacturers participating in Operation Warp Speed as a supplier of a potential COVID-19 vaccine," Castillo said in an email. "While Pfizer did reach an advanced purchase agreement with the U.S. government, the company did not accept (Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority) funding for the research and development process. All the investment for R&D was made by Pfizer at risk. Dr. Jansen was emphasizing that last point."

and of course a $2 billion payout plays an obvious role to it. and you don't even need to take my opinion of it, 3/4 CNN experts also agreed with it. and really, it's just plain obvious that's how business works and that the initial statement saying they were never part of warp speed, that they never took money, is bullshit. they were, they admit they were in June, they admit they were in a followup statement, it's just a PR game to distance from Trump and people fell for it. big pharma gonna big pharma.

3/4 GameFAQS experts disagree it had any involvement.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I mean if you wanna give Trump some credit for the lives eventually saved by Moderna's success due to Operation Warp Speed (perhaps fair, though any president would have done something similar), it seems like you should also give him "credit" for the lives lost due to his failures, particularly the ones that were obviously going to be bad as he was doing them like politicizing the virus and refusing to wear a mask even as experts had reversed their recommendations on them.

you libs. trashing trump for 300,000 dead when he's about to save 7,500,000,000. smh

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Corrik7 posted...

I think we should give the companies the credit. Trump could have aided them, but at the end of the day, it was the company's workers and ingenuity that will save lives. Don't you agree?

People can share credit. Credit isnt a zero-sum idea
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Corrik7 posted...

I think we should give the companies the credit. Trump could have aided them, but at the end of the day, it was the company's workers and ingenuity that will save lives. Don't you agree?

I certainly think the vast majority of the credit should go to the companies and scientists. My personal default philosophy on assigning credit/blame to government actors is to look at how they did compared to how a replacement-level actor in that same position. I think most presidents would have done something like Operation Warp Speed, but it was a good idea besides Trump's politicization of it. Most presidents would not have politicized the virus, so I give him a ton of blame for it. I also believe most would have done a far better job with early testing/PPE.

Lockdowns are less clear; I think Trump's failed at this too, but so have a lot of other government leaders.

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Corrik7 posted...

Are you claiming that Trump ordered the military to murder an American girl? Are you claiming that he ordered the military to strike her? Are you arguing that Trump ordered the strike knowingly that an American citizen would be dead as a result of it?

whoops, got the genetic line wrong. thought it was little brother, it's little sister.
trump was given the choice to do the raid or not. it was initially done in obama's administration yes, but trump was explicitly the one who gave the go-ahead. because of the raid's location, it's also known that yes, american citizens would be involved because it's not the first time they targeted this family. she wasn't the target but she would be a known potential victim and obviously wasn't a terrorist herself since she's, y'know, 8.

it's shit like that which makes me believe it's impossible to get the president on murder. it's part of a military operation against terrorism = perfect defense. still is a dead american citizen though and that rubs me the wrong way.

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Lebron had 64 points, 19 rebounds, and 14 assists. He had 4 blocks also including the game saving block and breakaway dunk to seal the win.

HEY HEY HEY! I think we should talk about the credit that Dion Waters deserves!

lol.

Like I said, the company should get the credit. Trump could have aided them with Operation Warp Speed. Like I said, I am sure it played at least some part in it. But, I am not going to be like Trump created a vaccine!

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I certainly think the vast majority of the credit should go to the companies and scientists. My personal default philosophy on assigning credit/blame to government actors is to look at how they did compared to how a replacement-level actor in that same position. I think most presidents would have done something like Operation Warp Speed, but it was a good idea besides Trump's politicization of it. Most presidents would not have politicized the virus, so I give him a ton of blame for it. I also believe most would have done a far better job with early testing/PPE.

Lockdowns are less clear; I think Trump's failed at this too, but so have a lot of other government leaders.

I think it is weird to assess that Trump solely politicized the virus.

I remember liberals calling Trump a xenophobe, bigot, and racist for stopping travel from china in February after all.

Was that not politicization?

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Corrik7 posted...

I think it is weird to assess that Trump solely politicized the virus.

I remember liberals calling Trump a xenophobe, bigot, and racist for stopping travel from china in February after all.

Was that not politicization?

he, and other republicans, should've absolutely doubled down on that back in Jan and Feb. get called a bigot, get insulted, whatever, writing was clear on the wall they'd be right soon after. back then republicans took it seriously, dems didn't. they even talked about the stimulus first, they were ahead of the game on every level until around mid-march where the script flipped and a case of the stupid was developed. that's definitely one of the most unforgivable parts for me, they had it right but then just... stopped. like yeah the mess was always political but they weren't acting like political agents at the time. once it became widespread they did and everything went to hell.

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Corrik7 posted...

Was that not politicization?

Its mostly been misconstrued, especailly the quote attributed to Biden. You can believe the travel ban was good while also realizing that Trump's rhetoric was xenophobic.

You can also point out how slow he was to initiate a travel ban from/to Europe, which came far too late(we know that is how the virus really spread in the US, European travel).

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I certainly think the vast majority of the credit should go to the companies and scientists. My personal default philosophy on assigning credit/blame to government actors is to look at how they did compared to how a replacement-level actor in that same position. I think most presidents would have done something like Operation Warp Speed, but it was a good idea besides Trump's politicization of it. Most presidents would not have politicized the virus, so I give him a ton of blame for it. I also believe most would have done a far better job with early testing/PPE.

Lockdowns are less clear; I think Trump's failed at this too, but so have a lot of other government leaders.

I give Trump a lot of credit for pushing vaccines and treatments for the virus. I could easily see a replacement level President being unambitious on that front and focusing on suppressing the virus through social distancing.

I do think his handling of the third wave has been poor and likely motivated by his own personal survival of the virus. While herd immunity is a reasonable strategy if you think the vaccine is far in the future, if it is only a few months away now is not the time to let the virus spread completely unchecked. And even if you are going for herd immunity, you want a flatter curve to get there, not an exponential spike.

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red13n posted...

Its mostly been misconstrued, especailly the quote attributed to Biden. You can believe the travel ban was good while also realizing that Trump's rhetoric was xenophobic.

You can also point out how slow he was to initiate a travel ban from/to Europe, which came far too late(we know that is how the virus really spread in the US, European travel).

I am not really referring to Biden. Though his comments are definitely iffy on whether he was saying that or not.

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Biden is gonig to get a lot of mostly pointless credit when dealing with the virus in his first year because many places if you look at the numbers are absolutely on pace to start hitting a level of herd immunity as we round into January(We are likely to peak around Christmas/New years).

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The travel restrictions on China had massive holes in them (it was only against foreign nationals who had been in China in the past two weeks; hundreds of thousands still came to the US on direct flights from China after the "ban.")

And it wasn't some early idea either, 45 countries had enacted travel restrictions on China before the US, and by the time the US had we already had cases and local transmission confirmed inside the country.

Finally the whole purpose of restricting travel is to buy time to ramp up preparation... instead Trump treated it more like "case closed" so we did absolutely fucking nothing with any time gained there and were still woefully unprepared when the first wave ramped up.

like the whole "ban on china" shit has turned into some serious mythologized bullshit that doesn't reflect reality at all

Edit: and like red said, the whole focus on China from Trump (including the reprehensible language he used and continues to use to this day) while leaving other countries with outbreaks with no restrictions left us vulnerable because the attention wasn't there to check travelers from Europe, etc. and the New York outbreak is believed to have come from Europe based on genetic analysis

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Trump playing down the virus and railing against countermeasures (as well as lying as saying it was "just the flu") absolutely politicized covid. It's not an accident that Trump supporters take the disease much less seriously than others.

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xp1337 posted...

The travel restrictions on China had massive holes in them (it was only against foreign nationals who had been in China in the past two weeks; hundreds of thousands still came to the US on direct flights from China after the "ban.")

And it wasn't some early idea either, 45 countries had enacted travel restrictions on China before the US, and by the time the US had we already had cases and local transmission confirmed inside the country.

Finally the whole purpose of restricting travel is to buy time to ramp up preparation... instead Trump treated it more like "case closed" so we did absolutely fucking nothing with any time gained there and were still woefully unprepared when the first wave ramped up.

like the whole "ban on china" shit has turned into some serious mythologized bullshit that doesn't reflect reality at all

I believe we were the first Western nation to announce one. Besides maybe the Czech Republic.

And, for how ineffectual you said it was and not strong enough, he was lambasted for being too drastic.

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I can criticize Biden too when warranted. This is dumb as fuck:

https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1328434127595565063

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I can criticize Biden too when warranted. This is dumb as fuck:

https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1328434127595565063

I like it. Not possible, but let's start bringing jobs back to America

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Corrik7 posted...

And, for how ineffectual you said it was and not strong enough, he was lambasted for being too drastic.

Maybe he should have been honest about how serious he knew the virus was at that point?

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