Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 347: The Indian in the Cabinet

(+) Yeah! (+)

VP is still technically part of the Cabinet
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Jakyl25 posted...

VP is still technically part of the Cabinet

Just wait four more years and she'll be in the White House, because GOP voters will totally choose an Indian woman as their candidate from a primary field of angry white men.

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https://twitter.com/byyourlogic/status/1331307443889057794?s=21

lmao

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red sox argued...

We obviously exist in 4 dimensions. If we did not, we could not perceive time. But we can perceive it and we move in it. We just can't control our motion in that dimension.

I disagree. Our perception of time is an illusion created by our consciousness piecing together sequences of existence ad hoc in our minds. We arent actually EXPERIENCING time, we just have brains capable of a reasonable facsimile of it.
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If you want to be technical about it, it takes time to take an action and even to formulate a thought. The present does not exist in any meaningful way detached from its history or future. Nothing can happen in it, nothing can move in it, and no observations can be made about it. "The present" exists only in the imagination.

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Jakyl25 posted...

VP is still technically part of the Cabinet

But I don't want the VP to be doing Cabinet stuff. Harris should spend her time being in charge of the Senate and forcing them to vote on things.
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glad i copied and pasted this first.

Jakyl25 posted...

Thats EXACTLY what youre arguing though!

it's not exactly it, no, and you know there's no way to separate the issue of business/societal times to take a break. if you're in school, that's prime time for tests and papers. if you're at work, you're working. if neither applies to you, it may well apply to other people you're trying to meet. if none of those applies or to any of those involved, then okay, the difference between a November 10th and a November 26th feast/gathering shouldn't matter. but i'm saying it's cheeky because you're basically saying "if i strip everything from the day to everything but the day for every person involved it's no different." but that's not what things are really like. so yeah, cheeky. i get that this is tying back to your claim of it being arbitrary days but that's just not the reality we're in.

you'd have to add a couple more layers to Christmas to that too, between religion, Santa, presents, etc.

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red sox 777 posted...

If you want to be technical about it, it takes time to take an action and even to formulate a thought. The present does not exist in any meaningful way detached from its history or future. Nothing can happen in it, nothing can move in it, and no observations can be made about it. "The present" exists only in the imagination.

Fair
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Jakyl if only the present exists then why care about anything? What distinguishes murder from suicide? After all, the dead don't have any regrets, as they don't exist.

If the answer is agency, why consider murder an outside force that alters one agency but not mental illness? What about drugs? Where do you draw the line on this?

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Jakyl if only the present exists then why care about anything? What distinguishes murder from suicide? After all, the dead don't have any regrets, as they don't exist.

Societal contract shit. We cant have a functioning society without some guidelines that are in the best interest of the vast majority. If you currently dont want to die, you probably shouldnt be killed, with some exceptions.

Now if you want to get into the weeds of is a functioning society even a goal worthy enough to restrict the right to kill others without consent then we can go there, but I believe it is. Im not above discussion of it though and could theoretically be swayed on it, unlike some of my other opinions.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

If the answer is agency, why consider murder an outside force that alters one agency but not mental illness? What about drugs? Where do you draw the line on this?

I believe your desires while mentally ill are still generally within the realm of agency. Suicidal people arent generally considered mentally insane, as it were.

Drugs are a trickier case, but Im not aware of any drugs that would make a non-suicidal person suddenly prone to suicide.
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So yeah I will say that if you are clinically insane I can see the argument for restraining your ability to harm yourself
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I'll make a political analogy to this. The country is divided between the Party of Reasonableness and the Global Thermonuclear War Party. The Party of Reasonableness has won every election for the past 70 years, because a majority of the citizens don't want to die in a nuclear war. Nonetheless, 40-45% of the country regularly votes for the Global Thermonuclear War Party, whose platform consists entirely of nuking the entire world.

After 70 years in power, the Party of Reasonableness has gotten rather corrupt and the citizens are unhappy with its economic policy. The percentage of people voting for the Global Thermonuclear War Party gradually increases across elections, but stays below 47% or so, until finally one year it is discovered that the nominee from the Party of Reasonableness deleted 33 million emails from her private server. The public outrage at the deletion of so many emails finally catapults the Global Thermonuclear War Party over the top, and they win that year's election with 50.05% of the votes.

Once in power, the Global Thermonuclear War Party immediately starts a nuclear war causing the extinction of humanity from the planet. Is there nothing to regret here?

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red sox 777 posted...

Once in power, the Global Thermonuclear War Party immediately starts a nuclear war causing the extinction of humanity from the planet. Is there nothing to regret here?

I mean, theres no one capable of regret left right?
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where's the Bunker Party, i'd like to join them.


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Jakyl25 posted...

I mean, theres no one capable of regret left right?

What if there were aliens living in another stellar system observing this? They could well feel regret.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Societal contract shit. We cant have a functioning society without some guidelines that are in the best interest of the vast majority. If you currently dont want to die, you probably shouldnt be killed, with some exceptions.

So how does suicide not also violate this social contract, with the exception of your hypothetical completely isolated person with no dependents? This person probably falls completely outside of this social contract. We also cannot have a society without at least pretending that life is valuable, with all the good and bad that entails.

Also if the enforcement of the social contract is the important distinction, wouldn't it follow that it's okay to murder all those that fall outside of it?

Jakyl25 posted...

I believe your desires while mentally ill are still generally within the realm of agency. Suicidal people arent generally considered mentally insane, as it were.

Drugs are a trickier case, but Im not aware of any drugs that would make a non-suicidal person suddenly prone to suicide.

Insanity isn't really "real" in the sense that clinical insanity is a legal term, not a scientific diagnosis, so I err more on the side of ambiguity. Mental health isnt completely understood but it's generally accepted as something that distorts agency. Thats why I also bring up drugs and alcohol. My nuanced opinion here is that you can accept all these things distort agency while also not absolving responsibility but it's a grey area. And speaking from my own experience, I have a hard time trusting my own judgement regarding my own self in those areas,, and also have a hard time dissasociating my sense of self to be completely isolated within a single moment, so. I would say it does harm.

Do you extend this to other forms of self-harm too, like cutting or substance abuse? Is the only reason to intervene (assuming no violation of agency) in this situation to prevent harm from coming to others? As in, there is no gain to treating mental illness as long as the person is reasonably living according to their wishes?

Sorry for the inane hypotheticals by the way, I'm getting pretty rambly here.

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Until anybody shows me any credible data about deaths by suicide happening on the same scale as covid deaths this year I'm absolutely not going to entertain that as a reasonable excuse to have large holiday gatherings, particularly at the same time that hospitals are at their breaking points. I would be shocked if at this point we're not going to have people dying for preventable reasons by the end of the year because their weren't enough hospital resources.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

So how does suicide not also violate this social contract, with the exception of your hypothetical completely isolated person with no dependents? This person probably falls completely outside of this social contract. We also cannot have a society without at least pretending that life is valuable, with all the good and bad that entails.

No need to apologize for rambling, this is a good discussion

My belief is that, for a person attempting suicide, theyre in immense pain, and their need to end their pain can overrule the value of life needed for a social contract to work. People arent killing themselves just for funsies. If they are then we can re-evaluate.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Also if the enforcement of the social contract is the important distinction, wouldn't it follow that it's okay to murder all those that fall outside of it?

Were a global society! Aside from some isolated tribes, which, again, killing them against their will violates their agency.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Do you extend this to other forms of self-harm too, like cutting or substance abuse? Is the only reason to intervene (assuming no violation of agency) in this situation to prevent harm from coming to others? As in, there is no gain to treating mental illness as long as the person is reasonably living according to their wishes?

I think its important to OFFER help, but not force it. No one should feel like they have to commit suicide because avenues for help dont exist. But there is no overall gain to be had by forcing someone to get help completely against their will, again, as all these hypotheticals are, assuming they dont have young children whose need for a parent outweighs your need to end your pain.
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Similarly, we as a society should make sure no one should feel like they HAVE to work during COVID, but here we are, doing just that.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Until anybody shows me any credible data about deaths by suicide happening on the same scale as covid deaths this year I'm absolutely not going to entertain that as a reasonable excuse to have large holiday gatherings, particularly at the same time that hospitals are at their breaking points. I would be shocked if at this point we're not going to have people dying for preventable reasons by the end of the year because their weren't enough hospital resources.

did you just miss the end of the last topic.
because this issue is coming up as a result of information where 75% of people 18-24 have mental disorders/drug issues, same for 52% of 25-44. suicide rates have blown up through the roof, with data saying that over 25% of people 18-24 have thought about it in July to August, that an organization who keeps track of mental health found 178k people have reported it, of which 37% said in September was at least for half the month. of people who have had significant amounts of anxiety (up 93%) or depression (up 62%), 70% include lonliness and isolation as among the top 3 things as to why.

https://www.mhanational.org/issues/state-mental-health-america

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/23/covid-pandemic-rise-suicides/
https://archive.is/Bx0xP

dismissing like the way you're doing is not going to fix anything because a lot of people are at their breaking points too. fact is people are going to die no matter what approach is taken, so don't dismiss either concern as we're royally fucked right now.

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I think everyone is missing the point.

Give everyone Medicare for All, including psychiatric care and therapy, now.

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People are awfully quick to assume that the rise of mental health problems is solely as a result of being locked down and not the fact that people are dying and the world is burning down all around us

...the point of a crisis we're in right now that's going to get worse is to use rhetoric for something we'll get a watered down version of over the next decade?


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That's suicidal thought. I'm talking about an actual increase in suicides comparable to the number of covid deaths. I have not seen any data suggesting that suicide beyond normal levels is taking place at nearly that scale.

And I'm not dismissing it; increases in suicidal thoughts are a problem. But if you're using it as a justification for people flouting pandemic guidelines, I need evidence that at least a comparable amount of harm is being prevented as is being caused, and I don't see that at all.

Most importantly, covid infections rise geometrically (i.e. proportional to current infections), and we're about at a breaking point where death rates are going to spike as hospitals are overwhelmed. Simultaneously, we actually have a finish line in sight given the extremely promising vaccine trial data. I completely understand that things suck, but peoples' choices over the next few months are going to determine the fate of possibly hundreds of thousands of lives in the US.

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Jakyl25 posted...

My belief is that, for a person attempting suicide, theyre in immense pain, and their need to end their pain can overrule the value of life needed for a social contract to work. People arent killing themselves just for funsies. If they are then we can re-evaluate.

I agree with this in theory, but I guess we disagree on its practical application. My skepticism poisoned brain creeps in and says we need more data points to consider a course of action. You say only one data point - the immediate agency of the present - matters. If someone affirms that they want to live, then later attempt suicide, which act of agency takes priority? There is probably a point of sustained suffering at which point it becomes humane but until it is absolutely clear that point has been reached, it's better to prevent suicide. Given that our perception of time and self is weird and also altered by our mental state and various other external factors, I think it's an error to disregard the "potential" harm done by a single bad call. Maybe there isn't a moral obligation to prevent all suicide, but there is one to remove its ambiguities.

Jakyl25 posted...

I think its important to OFFER help, but not force it. No one should feel like they have to commit suicide because avenues for help dont exist. But there is no overall gain to be had by forcing someone to get help completely against their will, again, as all these hypotheticals are, assuming they dont have young children whose need for a parent outweighs your need to end your pain.

This is hard to unravel to me because the illness itself, societal stigma, economic factors, and access can all influence this decision (so yes, Medicare for All btw). In the same way I would say a criminal influenced by these factors deserves a shot at redemption without denigrating the responsibility or agency involved with their actions, I would say the same for people who are self-harming. Both have the eventual issue of people determined to exert their agency against that and I do think that's the point where the breakdown occurs. In all cases I think it's a moral imperative and overall benefit for the choice to be offered, and from a practical standpoint that does entail some degree of persistence in the face of initial resistance.

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Paratroopa1 posted...

People are awfully quick to assume that the rise of mental health problems is solely as a result of being locked down and not the fact that people are dying and the world is burning down all around us

i mean if 70% of people with anxiety and depression are saying lonliness and isolation are top 3 reasons, they're telling you that it's a big reason. certainly not something you want to block during thanksgiving and christmas. you wanna try some limits, maybe some work, maybe some don't. but people who ain't gonna listen ain't all just doing it as a casual whatever.

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Wanglicious posted...

because this issue is coming up as a result of information where 75% of people 18-24 have mental disorders/drug issues, same for 52% of 25-44. suicide rates have blown up through the roof, with data saying that over 25% of people 18-24 have thought about it in July to August, that an organization who keeps track of mental health found 178k people have reported it, of which 37% said in September was at least for half the month. of people who have had significant amounts of anxiety (up 93%) or depression (up 62%), 70% include lonliness and isolation as among the top 3 things as to why.

This is all a bunch of qualified information though

We know that if people gather indoors in large groups; be it for family gatherings, rallies, protests, religion, whatever; a virus that kills a lot of people and causes irreparable harm to even more will spread. That is factual.

All this mental health data does is discuss issues people are having that cause them pain. If someone self-describes as lonely is there data on whether they specifically need in-person gatherings to resolve that? Is there data that says that family is what they miss and not just socializing? Because youre the one making these leaps and trying to equivocate the mass spread of COVID with suicidal loneliness and your stats dont carry enough substance to do that.
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Wanglicious posted...

i mean if 70% of people with anxiety and depression are saying lonliness and isolation are top 3 reasons, they're telling you that it's a big reason. certainly not something you want to block during thanksgiving and christmas. you wanna try some limits, maybe some work, maybe some don't. but people who ain't gonna listen ain't all just doing it as a casual whatever.

Also heres a thought: maybe they are

If someone is suicidally lonely then they must be the kind of person to have followed the COVID guidelines up to this point right? Why would they suddenly stop now just for a holiday.

This is purely conjecture but I would wager the vast majority of people gathering for the holidays arent people who have held out until now and think its finally time to break isolation
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LordoftheMorons posted...

That's suicidal thought. I'm talking about an actual increase in suicides comparable to the number of covid deaths. I have not seen any data suggesting that suicide beyond normal levels is taking place at nearly that scale.

dude, if you're looking for hard data you're asking for something we'll get in 2 years. it doesn't get processed that fast, for now you're going to surveys on suicidal thoughts, other mental illness, drug use, and smaller counties. right in the WaPo article you've got this blurb:

In Arizonas Pima County, officials have sent two health bulletins alerting doctors and hospitals to spikes in suicides. In Oregons Columbia County, the number of suicides by summer had already surpassed last years total. In the sprawling Chicago suburbs, DuPage County has reported a 23 percent rise compared with last year. And in the city itself, the number of suicides among African Americans has far surpassed the total for 2019, even as officials struggle to understand whether the deaths are being driven by the pandemic, racial unrest or both. What has shocked medical examiners in Chicago is the age range from a 57-year-old deputy police chief to a 9-year-old child.

an increase of 23% suicides matches quite well with the increase of 25% of suicidal thoughts. these are two gonna obviously correlate. if you're saying you haven't seen any data saying an increase, bluntly, you've been ignoring data and not looking for it at all.

and it ain't just suicidal thoughts, the increase of anxiety and depression correlates to an increase of drug usage and overdoses, addiction, and other harmful behavior. this ain't something to narrow the scope of either.

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A 23% increase in suicides would be an additional 12000 or so for the year (actually 10000 since January and February suicides were presumably normal). Thats a problem, to be sure, but its like 4% of the covid death toll.

And if were going to look at consequences beyond just death, fair enough. But then you also have to consider that there are going to be many times as many people as those who died from covid who will have long term health effects from the disease.

And ultimately, if you pull it all back, if we had had a really good response to the virus like some other countries (e.g. South Korea) we could have cut back on all of these consequences by more than an order of magnitude.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

There is probably a point of sustained suffering at which point it becomes humane but until it is absolutely clear that point has been reached,

My argument is that if the person feels like they have to kill themselves then that point has been reached.

I dont know the extent of your previous suicidal thoughts, but from my anecdotal experience theres a spectrum. There are times when youre aware you dont want to exist anymore but dont care to put forth the effort it takes to die. There are times where part of you wants to die but also part of you wants to live so you seek help.

Then there are times when its all dark and the only thing that makes any sense is the end.

I would defer to mental health professionals over my own amateur philosophical musings but I believe that only once you reach that last mindset do you actually reach a pain threshold where its humane to die, but its also generally the only time people genuinely attempt suicide.
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Jakyl25 posted...

All this mental health data does is discuss issues people are having that cause them pain. If someone self-describes as lonely is there data on whether they specifically need in-person gatherings to resolve that? Is there data that says that family is what they miss and not just socializing? Because youre the one making these leaps and trying to equivocate the mass spread of COVID with suicidal loneliness and your stats dont carry enough substance to do that.

it's not a leap to say lockdowns lead to an increase of lonliness and isolation. that's just a normal connection.
i don't see why it matters if it's family or not there exactly, the people they're going for holidays are the people they want to see during holidays. so that's not a relevant point. and like i just told LOTM, there's way more than just suicidal lonliness here. you've gotta factor in all the ways mental health is collapsing because you won't find it in just suicide or drugs but it will keep seeping through various other directions. i also don't see why age is being ignored either because that's a pretty big deal as well; if over 50% of those under 44 have issues, over 75% of those under 24, and they're getting worse? yeah, that age matters.

Jakyl25 posted...

If someone is suicidally lonely then they must be the kind of person to have followed the COVID guidelines up to this point right? Why would they suddenly stop now just for a holiday.

nah, i'd assume they've broken whatever rule a couple times already.
but i still think the biggest issue here is you're still underestimating the value that holidays have. thanksgiving isn't "just a holiday" for many. Christmas damn sure ain't "just a holiday" and things are gonna be much worse by then too.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

And if were going to look at consequences beyond just death, fair enough

nono, two different aspects here.
beyond suicides.
death as a result of anxiety or depression can come in other forms as well, an increase of drug usage can cause OD, organ failure, etc.

from there it's consequences beyond just death. but that's two separate expansions.


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Wanglicious posted...

nah, i'd assume they've broken whatever rule a couple times already.
but i still think the biggest issue here is you're still underestimating the value that holidays have. thanksgiving isn't "just a holiday" for many. Christmas damn sure ain't "just a holiday" and things are gonna be much worse by then too.

Thats where you need government to step in and say Your right to this holiday gathering does not supersede a public health emergency.

And even if someone is suicidally lonely there SHOULD BE plenty of other opportunities provided to alleviate that
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Jakyl25 posted...

Thats where you need government to step in and say Your right to this holiday gathering does not supersede a public health emergency.

and that's when the guns come out as they say "make me."


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As someone who lost their brother to suicide I'm feeling really uncomfortable right now.

I'll also say suicidal ideation can very much be a chemical problem too, so uh. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say, other than seek help, more people care about you than you know, etc.

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this discussion makes me wonder how bad january 18th will be for suicides. that's supposed to be the most depressing day of the year, right?

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Lets take it to a more concrete scenario

Wang, what would you say about someone who was actually knowingly infected and symptomatic who still felt so lonely and isolated that they had to socialize for the holidays.

Theres no way to justify that morally, IMO. For you?
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Wanglicious posted...

and that's when the guns come out as they say "make me."

And thats why we are a failed society
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Also I would definitely be interested in data regarding conservative gun values and openness to admitting mental health problems, i.e. the only potential legitimate reason youve posited to not judge people who feel the need to gather.

Stereotypically you would assume little overlap but maybe the stereotype is wrong!
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Jakyl25 posted...

Also I would definitely be interested in data regarding conservative gun values and openness to admitting mental health problems, i.e. the only potential legitimate reason youve posited to not judge people who feel the need to gather.

Stereotypically you would assume little overlap but maybe the stereotype is wrong!

People who do not admit mental health issues still suffer from them just as much. In fact, probably more.

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Also even if you presume that isolation is causing suicides, are there a cadre of mental health professionals out there advocating to let these people ignore lockdown, or is it just internet contrarians?
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red sox 777 posted...

People who do not admit mental health issues still suffer from them just as much. In fact, probably more.

I cant give you a COVID pass if you dont admit why you need one.
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Wanglicious posted...

and that's when the guns come out as they say "make me."

fantastic argument for taking people's guns, still not a great argument for big holiday gatherings

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JeffreyRaze posted...

As someone who lost their brother to suicide I'm feeling really uncomfortable right now.

I'll also say suicidal ideation can very much be a chemical problem too, so uh. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say, other than seek help, more people care about you than you know, etc.

honestly the situation is just messed up on all fronts and there's really no good answer. there's a lot of "should have happened" ideas that haven't and there's a lot of "should happen" that won't so we're getting stuck between a few different evils and there isn't a way to solve this cleanly.

the worst aspects of covid disproportionally affects people over 70, the worst aspects for mental disorders disproportionally affects people under 45 and even more under 25.

if you lock things down too much, you're gonna get a firm rejection and start triggering fight or flight responses with people rejecting more than they would have if it was simply left to guidance and best practices. if you don't lock anything down, you're gonna get a collapse of the medical system. these two aren't independent either, if one aspect fails so will the other (i.e., a collapse in the medical system will lead to more mental issues, a hamfisted lockdown will result in more violence and ironically more infections). there's an in between somewhere and nobody knows where it is, so the best that can be done is to see how everything is lining up and nudge people towards greater precautions without fucking everything up. basically, give validation to others as you reel 'em in. for most, that should work and seems to be the approach people like Fauci and Biden have gone towards. thanksgiving supposedly will have the majority of people taking more precautions (they say it in surveys but we'll see the reality of it) but Christmas is just another beast. have said it before but if you thought Happy Holidays was a "war on Christmas," good luck when it's "government doesn't want you to have Christmas."

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https://twitter.com/kevinabosch/status/1331339530318843911

Parler hacked lol

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Jakyl25 posted...

I cant give you a COVID pass if you dont admit why you need one.

You mean a special pass just for people with special needs? I wasn't advocating that. That would presuppose that the government has the authority to stop people from meeting. As a matter of enforcing things by force, I think as long as people are honest with the people they are meeting about their exposure risk there's nothing for the government to interfere in. But if you represent to your friends/family whom you are meeting on Thanksgiving that you have been in isolation for the past 2 months when in reality you've gone on two cruises, visited 30 bars, and attended 50 Trump rallies.....

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red sox 777 posted...

You mean a special pass just for people with special needs?

I mean a mental pass to make me not judge your actions
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I dont think anybody is proposing literally banning people from traveling for the holidays, either. People are just being begged not to have big gatherings and being judged for doing so anyway.

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Jakyl25 posted...

I mean a mental pass to make me not judge your actions

So you are judging people because they don't understand their problems? That's rather harsh. I strive not to judge anyone for anything (except maybe for deleting large quantities of emails and calling Americans deplorable and irredeemable*).

*To clear the record, in a moral sense, I do not judge Hillary either. I may view her as corrupted by her lifetime in and around public office, but I refuse to make this into a moral judgment.

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