Current Events > Sign this petition to stop a torture device for autistic kids

(+) Yeah! (+)

There's a really messed up kickstarter floating around that people are signing a petition to get removed.
The project is about using ABA therapy, which is already controversial, but trying to get parents and untrained people to use it to control their kids with autism.

This is the petition.
https://www.change.org/p/kickstarter-stop-kickstarter-from-allowing-child-abuse-of-neurodiverse-children

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This is a pretty complex topic.

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what the hell? a shock collar for autistic kids?

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ABA kinda falls under a wide umbrella of things, and the petition itself really turns me off with appeal to emotion rather than proper explanation. Autistic kids in CBT are often made to handle stimuli they find uncomfortable, but that's not torture.

That being said: I would consider that device to be torture on anyone.

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EnvoyOfTheLight posted...

ABA kinda falls under a wide umbrella of things, and the petition itself really turns me off with appeal to emotion rather than proper explanation. Autistic kids in CBT are often made to handle stimuli they find uncomfortable, but that's not torture.

That being said: I would consider that device to be torture on anyone.

The bolded part alone is enough to share and sign. But I agree with your criticism that the petition should not just be emotional.

Zeeak4444 posted...

This is a pretty complex topic.

Yes it is, but I think there's a simple way to look at it: would you use this on your kid?

monkmith posted...

what the hell? a shock collar for autistic kids?

Basically, yeah.

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what the fuck

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Reported to Kickstarter.

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EnvoyOfTheLight posted...

Autistic kids in CBT are often made to handle stimuli they find uncomfortable, but that's not torture.

Generally the stimuli is being given in an evidence based practice setting by a professional, not hanging a fucking low-battery smoke alarm on their neck and calling it a day.

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DrizztLink posted...

Generally the stimuli is being given in an evidence based practice setting by a professional, not hanging a fucking low-battery smoke alarm on their neck and calling it a day.

Exactly. And even then the practice is super controversial. I work with high functioning adults on the spectrum, many of them have horror stories about ABA. While it isn't always awful and evil, it very much can be.

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Look up Ole Ivar Lovaas. There's people on this board who defend that guy and Autism Speaks.

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Thank you. Signed.

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I looked at the kickstarter product and it has a crazy amount of backing and only 150 backers. So basically one person donated the whole amount and 149 others gave a few dollars.
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ABA therapy should not be controversial.

I have serious doubts that this device would be particularly effective at doing anything but putting someone on high levels of stress for no fucking reason, though.

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COVxy posted...

ABA therapy should not be controversial.

I have serious doubts that this device would be particularly effective at doing anything but putting someone on high levels of stress for no fucking reason, though.

It is though because classically, and still practiced occasionally, they use sensory punishments. I don't want to get anywhere near violating HIPPA laws, but I can tell you right now there are fucked up things that happened to many I know when they were between 3-15.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


I fucking wish.

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kirbyakaZ posted...

Yes it is, but I think there's a simple way to look at it: would you use this on your kid?

No of course not. No one should have that shit used on them.

Im referring to ABA as a whole though.

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Zeeak4444 posted...

No of course not. No one should have that shit used on them.

Im referring to ABA as a whole though.

Ah okay. I'm a bit bias against it as you can probably tell. But there are some modern techniques which are positive. And you're right, ABA is a very complex issue.

This is just horrible people who to want to not be inconvenienced by someone who may need to stim or deal with autism in their own way.

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kirbyakaZ posted...

It is though because classically, and still practiced occasionally, they use sensory punishments. I don't want to get anywhere near violating HIPPA laws, but I can tell you right now there are fucked up things that happened to many I know when they were between 3-15.

Typically punishment is used in shaping behavior only when it is more or less impossible to do so via reinforcement.

I do not think it is immoral to shape a harmful behavior away, even if it requires noxious but overall nonharmful punishments. Particularly in the cases of more severe autism where kids are often nonverbal and have repetitive and extremely harmful behaviors.

Pretty much every scientific study of ABA therapy shows that it helps.

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COVxy posted...

Typically punishment is used in shaping behavior only when it is more or less impossible to do so via reinforcement.

I do not think it is immoral to shape a harmful behavior away, even if it requires noxious be overall nonharmful punishments. Particularly in the cases of more severe autism where kids are often nonverbal and have repetitive and extremely harmful behaviors.

Pretty much every scientific study of ABA therapy shows that it helps.

This is part of the complexity of the subject. Of course you have to teach someone not to hurt themselves and how to do basic tasks. However, things like electric shocks for yelling are not okay.

Anyone who is curious, I advise you read this article:
https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/controversy-autisms-common-therapy/

Again, I am bias against the practice because I directly work with adults on the spectrum (I can prove this to a mod if they'd like! ) and have heard only horror stories.

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The idea the ABA therapy is just trying to erase "neurodivergent" behavior is nonsense, when the gains attributed to ABA practice are things like learning to be able to communicate basic needs to those who can tend to you, gains in IQ, reduction in self harm behavior, etc, etc.

Like, yeah, if people are putting kids with mild autism through extreme aversion therapy to increase eye gaze from mildly below normal, that's fucked up, but I don't think that's an intellectually honest description of ABA therapy.

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COVxy posted...

The idea the ABA therapy is just trying to erase "neurodivergent" behavior is nonsense, when the gains attributed to ABA practice are things like learning to be able to communicate basic needs to those who can tend to you, gains in IQ, reduction in self harm behavior, etc, etc.

Like, yeah, if people are putting kids with mild autism through extreme aversion therapy to increase eye gaze from mildly below normal, that's fucked up, but I don't think that's an intellectually honest description of ABA therapy.

You're right in concept. I think overall we completely agree.
The issue is more that for many who have practiced ABA since the 70's are still using many antiquated methods. In addition to that, there is often a lot of impatience when working with kids on the spectrum.
Most ABA abuse cases I've seen were when kids were having a tantrum, just hyper, being generally bratty like a normal 8 year old, or even just "crying too much."

Again, I think we agree about the theory and modern practices. Where we seem to have issue seeing eye to eye is about older practicing therapists still doing what I consider horrible things.

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Bump for exposure

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DeadBankerDream posted...

I looked at the kickstarter product and it has a crazy amount of backing and only 150 backers. So basically one person donated the whole amount and 149 others gave a few dollars.

That's a tactic people use to figure out support and get a few extra dollars/sales with a side of advertising.

You put out a product, fund it yourself, then the excess is just sales, support, extra money. Then you can advertise the Kickstarter and get free cash.

I've heard claims some people do money laundering with this tactic, but the fuck do I know lol.
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Up

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Bamp

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