Poll of the Day > You're playing Texas hold em. It's heads up, you and one other person

(+) Yeah! (+)

Youve made it to the end of a tournament, its you and one other person. They have slightly more chips than you, but its basically even. Your hand is king of diamonds and ten of hearts. Flop comes up Queen of diamonds, four of hearts, two of hearts. The other person checks, you check. The turn comes, Ace of hearts. The other person checks, you check. Final card, eight of hearts.

the other person puts you all in. What do you do?

call the all in or fold?

I go for it and kiss him

---

Mead posted...

I go for it and kiss him

This was a trap to prove that mead is a sexist, I never said it was a him.

mead hates women

The only thing better is a higher flush right?

---

DrPrimemaster posted...

The only thing better is a higher flush right?

Or the straight flush, they could have a 3 and 5 of hearts

MICHALECOLE posted...

Or the straight flush, they could have a 3 and 5 of hearts

That's only 4 though, would need the last card to be a 6 not an 8

---

DrPrimemaster posted...

That's only 4 though, would need the last card to be a 6 not an 8

Ace-5

MICHALECOLE posted...

Ace-5

Ah, true

He'd all in the card before though wouldn't he? I guess to bluff his hand is worst to goad the all in

---

First thing is to find out what the "nuts" is... that's the pair of cards that is the best possible outcome.

Qd, 4h, 2h, Ah, 8h

The best possible hand is a straight flush: Is one possible? Yes - with a 3h and 5h. So that's the "nuts"

Next is to determine the bidding strength. The Flop granted them the 2 and the 4, so if they had the 3 and 5 they might have raised but not neccesarily. But when the Ace came up they would have had the nuts no matter what the final car was and should have raised.

...

You have a flush 10 high which can also be beaten by a Jack flush, and if you were bidding against only a straight then there'd be no reason to go all in with "just a straight" against a very easy flush. (unless your straight also contained a high heart, which would necessarily be the Jack or there'd be no point so can be ruled out)

So, in summary, I'd say not only should you not go in - but the other player should have raised earlier

---

You have a flush 10 high which can also be beaten by a Jack flush, and if you were bidding against only a straight then there'd be no reason to go all in with "just a straight" against a very easy flush. (unless your straight also contained a high heart, which would necessarily be the Jack or there'd be no point so can be ruled out)

So, in summary, I'd say not only should you not go in - but the other player should have raised earlier

i dont really follow, can you elaborate?

MICHALECOLE posted...

i dont really follow, can you elaborate?

The second player had an unbeatable hand as soon as that Ace showed up and he would have known that. So he should have raised as much as he thinks the other player would be comfortable with since he'd just take it.

---

Lokarin posted...

The second player had an unbeatable hand as soon as that Ace showed up and he would have known that. So he should have raised as much as he thinks the other player would be comfortable with since he'd just take it.

You dont have a flush until the river, until then you have Ace high

MICHALECOLE posted...

You dont have a flush until the river, until then you have Ace high

It doesn't matter - the other player still has the best possible hand and should try to get more money from you by raising on the turn. You have nothing, and on the river you have what is an iffy push

---

flush is a good hand, i'd go all-in on that.

---

Well, I'll put it another way:

If you don't know what the other player's cards are your odds of winning are 86.7% in this case... so under normal conditions you should go all in, those are mighty odds.

But lets roll this back:

On the flop your odds of winning are 47.3%, so a check-check is pretty fair. On the turn your odds of winning are 53.7%, so checking is fair and you can gauge strength on if the other player wagers.

But the other player checked.

If all they had was a Jack of hearts, then on the turn they'd think they'd have about 59% chance of winning, which is still enough of a point to raise.

...

So what does it all mean?

Well, while statistically you seem likely to win, you don't END the game on high odds when you have similar pots, you only end on a guarantee - especially if slightly behind.

---

you only end on a guarantee - especially if slightly behind.

thats not.. thats not how gambling works..

MICHALECOLE posted...

thats not.. thats not how gambling works..

I was assuming tournament poker where the take is all or nothing, not an individual game

---

Lokarin posted...

I was assuming tournament poker where the take is all or nothing, not an individual game

This is a tournament, but once you get down to the last two people of a tournament the blinds are so high that if youre playing for 100% victory, youre going to have no chips in five hands

And Im trying to wrap my head around the percentages you said earlier, honestly

MICHALECOLE posted...

And Im trying to wrap my head around the percentages you said earlier, honestly

you can go to 888poker to calculate odds for any given hand against X players and if you know or don't know any dead cards.

...

As for tournament play - if you are slightly behind you have to be careful not to dunk yourself, cuz a loss is elimination; but if you are slightly ahead then a total loss still keeps you in the game.

...

I said all that strategy stuff before I got the percentages and it does look like it would be smart for the Flush player to go all in - I didn't realize player A had a win chance of 86.7%... that's hella good; so in a weird way I kinda have to change my answer.

---

Fold, they could easily have a better flush. Not gonna push all in when I could be easily beat for a pot of two big blinds assuming there was no pre flop raising, in which case I definitely wouldn't have been checking the flop and the turn.

---

Solid Snake07 posted...

Fold, they could easily have a better flush.

That is not the case; If he has the Jack he doesn't win, it's a tie.

---

Lokarin posted...

That is not the case; If he has the Jack he doesn't win, it's a tie.

...if he has the jack of hearts he does win.

Unless I read it wrong

Still doesn't change the fact that I'm not gonna risk my tournament life for two BBs. He's either bluffing or has the nuts, there's no in between. And it makes no sense for him to bluff with almost his whole stack for such a tiny pot.

---

Lokarin posted...

That is not the case; If he has the Jack he doesn't win, it's a tie.

???

what was the preflop action? and how much has he been calling/raising/3 betting preflop prior to this. Also, what are blinds/stack sizes? I'd make my decisions based on this info

Anyway, I obviously fold. There's four fucking hearts on the board and I only have a ten

It's like noobs r us around here

Solid Snake07 posted...

...if he has the jack of hearts he does win.

Unless I read it wrong

Still doesn't change the fact that I'm not gonna risk my tournament life for two BBs. He's either bluffing or has the nuts, there's no in between. And it makes no sense for him to bluff with almost his whole stack for such a tiny pot.

theres no info on preflop action/pot size/starting stack sizes, so you dont know if the bluff makes sense or not

Fam_Fam posted...

theres no info on preflop action/pot size/starting stack sizes, so you dont know if the bluff makes sense or not

I'm going off the assumption that there was no preflop raising since it wasn't specified. Also like I said earlier if there were I would not have checked the flop and the turn so this whole scenario is kind of flawed if that's the case.

He did say starting stack sizes were basically even with me being at a slight disadvantage. So the only way a push makes any sense for him on a small pot is if he has atleast the second or third nuts and hopes I maybe caught something worth calling with(which is still a bad play, he could definitely get some chips out of me here but he's not getting my whole stack). Pushing for your tournament life for a pot of two BBs without the nuts makes him an idiot. In which case I'll let the idiot take his small win and pressure him into a bad situation later down the line.

---

ReggieTheReckless posted...

???

If the highest card of a flush is one of the community cards it's a tie

---

Lokarin posted...

If the highest card of a flush is one of the community cards it's a tie

Lol

---

Solid Snake07 posted...

Lol

You can correct me if you want, that's how I know it until presented otherwise... but just to be sure I'll check the wikipedia:

:

:

Oh... you're right

edit: The tie is when all 5 cards on the table are the entire flush

---

got to know when to fold them
---

Solid Snake07 posted...

I'm going off the assumption that there was no preflop raising since it wasn't specified. Also like I said earlier if there were I would not have checked the flop and the turn so this whole scenario is kind of flawed if that's the case.

He did say starting stack sizes were basically even with me being at a slight disadvantage. So the only way a push makes any sense for him on a small pot is if he has atleast the second or third nuts and hopes I maybe caught something worth calling with(which is still a bad play, he could definitely get some chips out of me here but he's not getting my whole stack). Pushing for your tournament life for a pot of two BBs without the nuts makes him an idiot. In which case I'll let the idiot take his small win and pressure him into a bad situation later down the line.

if there was no pre-flop raising, i agree that a fold is wise unless the starting stack sizes are incredibly tiny (i.e. they both have 5 BB starting the hand).

MICHALECOLE posted...

This was a trap to prove that mead is a sexist, I never said it was a him.

mead hates women

Cant hear you, too busy kissin

---

Fold.

---