Current Events > MCU got real preachy with Falcon&Winter Soldier

(+) Yeah! (+)

Forget you people who think that Racism will die off in a world a monsters.
Black vets went to WWII and was targeted with harassment,beatings and death, when they came back. So when the world had real monsters of the Nazi that were trying to literally take over the world. People still found time to be racist to black people.

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cjsdowg posted...

Black vets went to WWII and was targeted with harassment,beatings and death, when they came back. So when the world had real monsters of the Nazi that were trying to literally take over the world. People still found time to be racist to black people.

Man that would be the fucking worst.

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SothaSil posted...

Shut the fuck up Deadpool

which one is Deadpool?

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GhettoFlip posted...

which one is Deadpool?

TC

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I really have to laugh at the idea that racism would not be a thing in a world of aliens and superheroes.

Racists do not stop being racist. Point blank.

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Doom_Art posted...

The fact that this is a concern you have says more about you than anyone else tbh

It says that....I'm not interested in good writing taking a backseat to someone's morality?

People seem to forget these days that the two aren't necessarily mutual


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For the record, I enjoy the parts with Isaiah quite a lot. I just don't like how on the nose cheesy some of the other messages/scenes are at times. I wasn't trying to say that the message was bad. But that bit where Sam was on about "people who look like us" to a literal albino caught me off guard.

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SothaSil posted...

Shut the fuck up Deadpool

Oh, it's the dude who can't keep an account.

Again.

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cjsdowg posted...

Forget you people who think that Racism will die off in a world a monsters.
Black vets went to WWII and was targeted with harassment,beatings and death, when they came back. So when the world had real monsters of the Nazi that were trying to literally take over the world. People still found time to be racist to black people.

And after the Revolutionary War and the Civil War and WWI and Korea.

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lol the 2023 MCU world isn't trying to ape 1950s America. It's trying to ape 2020s America.

And the fact that you think "this doesn't happen in our world" is loool.

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Chadwick69 posted...

This always happens. Someone criticizes a show or game for being preachy and then every woke person alive has to come defend it because they think they are combating racists.

Sorry virtue signalers, no nazis for you to fight, just bad storytelling.

Or this is normal Marvel storytelling.

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ViewtifulGrave posted...

Or this is normal Marvel storytelling.

Exactly. It's fucking Marvel. A cursory glance tells you they've been doing the same things since the 60's.

Edit: And there are plenty of nazis to fight.

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gamepimp12 posted...

I dont think anyones arguing that.

I think everyone reasonable would agree you cant tell the story of Sam becoming Captain America without telling Isaiahs story.

I think everyone reasonable, would also agree that The MCU told his story the safest way they possibly could.

Fair enough.

ImAMarvel posted...

Honest to god think this was the best episode yet. That bit with Isaiah was actually really well done.

Also was it just me or was Sam's motivation for not taking the shield the idea that America wasn't ready for a black Captain America? Took me out of left field.

This is honestly what bothered me the most. It definitely felt like it came out of nowhere so when I was watching, I was like wait.. wut

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BilalPowell posted...

They want there to be no escape. All the tv shows, all the movies, all the sports, all the music gotta have a political message.

Unfortunately life itself has a political message. It's inescapable and part of what makes us human.

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brestugo posted...

Exactly. It's fucking Marvel. A cursory glance tells you they've been doing the same things since the 60's.

Edit: And there are plenty of nazis to fight.

Yeah. Marvel's comics have been covering social issues for decades. The X-Men Magneto/Xavier metaphors are well known by now but they're not the only ones. Stan Lee's inspiration for the comics was often just the news that day. The Sentinels were stand ins for the police.

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Yeah. Marvel's comics have been covering social issues for decades. The X-Men Magneto/Xavier metaphors are well known by now but they're not the only ones. Stan Lee's inspiration for the comics was often just the news that day. The Sentinels were stand ins for the police.

Ironically, Tony Stark was supposed to be someone the fans initially didn't like, as a member of the military industrial complex. Yet paradoxically people enjoyed his cavalier, libertarianesque attitude even though it was meant to be lamentable.

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DarkRoast posted...

Ironically, Tony Stark was supposed to be someone the fans initially didn't like, as a member of the military industrial complex. Yet paradoxically people enjoyed his cavalier, libertarianesque attitude even though it was meant to be lamentable.

Tony was created on a dare to make essentially the most unlikeable hero possible lol

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They will never let a Black man be Captain America. And even if they did, no self-respecting Black man would ever wanna be...

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Tyranthraxus posted...

Tony was created on a dare to make essentially the most unlikeable hero possible lol

Lee said something to the effect of "the problem is that you're not supposed to like someone who always thinks they're right, but it's hard not to like someone who is smart enough to actually always be right."

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1NfamousACE_2 posted...

They will never let a Black man be Captain America. And even if they did, no self-respecting Black man would ever wanna be...

The conversation later in the episode pretty much stated that Sam doesn't have to follow that philosophy. He's his own man and can decide that for himself. He doesn't have to be what other people want him to be, which translates to, yes, Sam will most likely take up the mantle by the end of the series, but for his own reasons.

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Isn't the whole point of X-Men all about politics and racism and whatever else?

Batman all about the justice system.

Isn't part of the ideal of Captain America that he is supposed to be what America should be, not necessarily what it is?

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burns112233 posted...

Isn't the whole point of X-Men all about politics and racism and whatever else?

Batman all about the justice system.

Superman is all about how a guy with zero powers but is really smart is the bad guy, and a guy with basically unlimited power and immortality is the good guy.


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DarkRoast posted...

Superman is all about how a guy with zero powers but is really smart is the bad guy, and a guy with basically unlimited power and immortality is the good guy.

Superman (Silver Age) is about how a down-home country upbringing instills you with the "good" values to wield power responsibly, while being a rich city-type leads to moral decay.

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CyricZ posted...

Superman (Silver Age) is about how a down-home country upbringing instills you with the "good" values to wield power responsibly, while being a rich city-type leads to moral decay.

Honestly, it's hard to hear a summary of Superman and not think that Lex Luthor isn't actually a sort of antihero given what he's up against.

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CyricZ posted...

Superman (Silver Age) is about how a down-home country upbringing instills you with the "good" values to wield power responsibly, while being a rich city-type leads to moral decay.

I mean, Lex being a bad guy might have more to do with him being a power hungry capitalist who thinks that power is something to be "earned" and so resents Supes. This is the same universe where Bruce Wayne is a good guy.

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DarkRoast posted...

Honestly, it's hard to hear a summary of Superman and not think that Lex Luthor isn't actually a sort of antihero given what he's up against.

I kid, mostly. Lex certainly writes himself like that honestly. It's come up in more than one work.

But that's to make up for his feelings of inadequacy. The two of them could have made the city/world amazing from both ends, but Lex is just so caught up with being "the one" to save the world that it leads to him being a shit.

And from that perspective in particular, the difference between Batman and Luthor is that Batman isn't in it for his brand.

Batman, of course, has his own wacky problems.

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wiiking96 posted...

I mean, Lex being a bad guy might have more to do with him being a power hungry capitalist who thinks that power is something to be "earned" and so resents Supes. This is the same universe where Bruce Wayne is a good guy.

Bruce Wayne is frequently the target of scandals and criticism held back mostly by philanthropy. He's got a lot in common with, say, Elon Musk. Just that Elon isn't fighting crime dressed as a bat and Bruce Wayne isn't tweeting out doge memes in the regular.

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Honestly, the impression I've always gotten from Bruce Wayne is that his specific brand of "Justice" actually enables criminals like Joker to exist.

Batman is practically a villain who thinks he's a superhero.

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How often do Batman comics comment on systemic socio-economic issues?

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Yeah, the series is way too preachy for my tastes which is a shame because I love both Falcon and Bucky. I'll probably finish the watching the series at some point when the season is over, but it's my least favorite Disney+ series I've tuned into so far.

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DarkRoast posted...

Honestly, the impression I've always gotten from Bruce Wayne is that his specific brand of "Justice" actually enables criminals like Joker to exist.

Batman is practically a villain who thinks he's a superhero.

Also a common point brought up a lot in the works.

The Bruce Timm (animated series) response to this is that essentially they created him. If Batman wasn't around, they'd still be doing what they do, only the gimmicks might not be so extreme.

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Gamerguymass posted...

Yeah writers these days don't seem to understand the concept that if you are writing a story with a world filled with aliens and magic and superheroes then the social aspect of society will be different then our own.

They did the same thing on Disignated Survivor in season three. Like seriously, the story is that a bomb blew up the capital building during the State of the Union killing off the entire government, no one is going to give a shit about half the crap they wrote about. That and they moved to Netflix so all of a sudden all the characters discovered swear words for the first time and used them more then an edgy 13 year old. There's a reason why this was by far the worst season and it then got canceled.

this


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wiiking96 posted...

How often do Batman comics comment on systemic socio-economic issues?

Batman's mother is Jewish. Which by tradition makes him Jewish. Which makes him a rich Jew. He's had hundreds of stories, maybe thousands by this point, and has probably never had a single one which dealt with him personally facing antisemitism.

But then that's DC, not Marvel.

FortuneCookie posted...

Batman's mother is Jewish. Which by tradition makes him Jewish. Which makes him a rich Jew. He's had hundreds of stories, maybe thousands by this point, and has probably never had a single one which dealt with him personally facing antisemitism.

But then that's DC, not Marvel.

That was more of an accident than anything. DC never intended for him to be Jewish.

Best to think of Kate's dad as converting to Judaism to marry Kate's Jewish mother.

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Lord_Shadow_19 posted...

Yeah, the series is way too preachy for my tastes which is a shame because I love both Falcon and Bucky. I'll probably finish the watching the series at some point when the season is over, but it's my least favorite Disney+ series I've tuned into so far.

This is par for the course for Marvel Comics media. And it's not "preachy" to have characters in the show discuss real issues that affect real people.

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I mean, I get it.

People want to deal with important issues and are better for doing so. But it's annoying how Spider-Man fights Doctor Octopus, Superman fights Lex Luthor, and Black Man fights racism.

It's that catch-22 about seeing color. If you don't acknowledge that someone is Black, LGBTQ+, etc., you're not seeing them for the whole of who they are. But if you see it, you're categorizing them according to what demographic they fall under and not seeing them as an individual.

Some Black superheroes should fight bigotry and tackle important social issues. Others should be action figures that you put on a shelf next to the Incredible Hulk and for whom you speculate who the villain will be in their next exciting movie.

Anthony Mackie has done a number of socially conscious roles before. If this is his choosing, more power to him. If the studio gave him this "very important message" to contend with, then fuck it. He should be getting solo movies by this point. He joined the MCU so that Black youth could have a superhero of their own to look up to. Now that Chadwick Boseman has passed on, there's not a Black male superhero left. He should be that starring individual.

FortuneCookie posted...

I mean, I get it.

People want to deal with important issues and are better for doing so. But it's annoying how Spider-Man fights Doctor Octopus, Superman fights Lex Luthor, and Black Man fights racism.

It's that catch-22 about seeing color. If you don't acknowledge that someone is Black, LGBTQ+, etc., you're not seeing them for the whole of who they are. But if you see it, you're categorizing them according to what demographic they fall under and not seeing them as an individual.

Some Black superheroes should fight bigotry and tackle important social issues. Others should be action figures that you put on a shelf next to the Incredible Hulk and for whom you speculate who the villain will be in their next exciting movie.

Anthony Mackie has done a number of socially conscious roles before. If this is his choosing, more power to him. If the studio gave him this "very important message" to contend with, then fuck it. He should be getting solo movies by this point. He joined the MCU so that Black youth could have a superhero of their own to look up to. Now that Chadwick Boseman has passed on, there's not a Black male superhero left. He should be that starring individual.

holy fuck lmao this is incredibly NIMBY lmao

AmericaTheBrave posted...

MCU still has the same history as our own. Superheroes didn't become a public thing until the events of Iron Man.

...no.....no it does

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FortuneCookie posted...

I mean, I get it.

People want to deal with important issues and are better for doing so. But it's annoying how Spider-Man fights Doctor Octopus, Superman fights Lex Luthor, and Black Man fights racism.

It's that catch-22 about seeing color. If you don't acknowledge that someone is Black, LGBTQ+, etc., you're not seeing them for the whole of who they are. But if you see it, you're categorizing them according to what demographic they fall under and not seeing them as an individual.

Some Black superheroes should fight bigotry and tackle important social issues. Others should be action figures that you put on a shelf next to the Incredible Hulk and for whom you speculate who the villain will be in their next exciting movie.

Anthony Mackie has done a number of socially conscious roles before. If this is his choosing, more power to him. If the studio gave him this "very important message" to contend with, then fuck it. He should be getting solo movies by this point. He joined the MCU so that Black youth could have a superhero of their own to look up to. Now that Chadwick Boseman has passed on, there's not a Black male superhero left. He should be that starring individual.

You can't address black Captain America without Isaiah Bradley. Full stop.

Save "black hero that doesn't deal with race" for War Machine or something.

Now to the people feeling this is preachy, I reiterate, it's okay for this to make you uncomfortable as a white person, but this story cannot be told another way. Please don't feel sad and guilty. Just enjoy it.

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wiiking96 posted...

This is par for the course for Marvel Comics media. And it's not "preachy" to have characters in the show discuss real issues that affect real people.

I call it preachy because this series is really continuing to hammer hoke how woke it is. It's one thing to have a moment here or there, but this series really went all in.

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Lord_Shadow_19 posted...

I call it preachy because this series is really continuing to hammer hoke how woke it is. It's one thing to have a moment here or there, but this series really went all in.

How would you prefer it be done?

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Lord_Shadow_19 posted...

this series is really continuing to hammer hoke how woke it is

How are they specifically "hammering how woke" they supposedly are?

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Lord_Shadow_19 posted...

I call it preachy because this series is really continuing to hammer hoke how woke it is. It's one thing to have a moment here or there, but this series really went all in.

This is not even remotely accurate.

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FortuneCookie posted...

But it's annoying how Spider-Man fights Doctor Octopus, Superman fights Lex Luthor, and Black Man fights racism.

It's more annoying how you're so upset about the show acknowledging the racial aspects of the situation that you say things like this, pretending that Sam hasn't spent the season fighting terrorists.

AmericaTheBrave posted...

You can't address black Captain America without Isaiah Bradley. Full stop.

Save "black hero that doesn't deal with race" for War Machine or something.

Now to the people feeling this is preachy, I reiterate, it's okay for this to make you uncomfortable as a white person, but this story cannot be told another way. Please don't feel sad and guilty. Just enjoy it.

You know what? You're right. Black Captain America is a much better option for this than War Machine. But at the same time, there should be a Black superhero who is just a superhero. War Machine might have been a good candidate for that had things been different.

But yeah, it's fair to bring up the things they did in this show. I'm just saying that there needs to be a balance. Not every character has to be the one to deliver the message. In his case, he may be the one who has to.

i watched it because of this topic and at the end said OK

i guess either i am woke or Disney has brainwashed me. probably both. oh well, enjoying a piece of media is 100 times better than me scrutinizing it for being supposedly woke. i get more out of life that way

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This must be why I never hear anyone talking about this show.

Wanadavision was everywhere and even non-marvel fans got into it because it's just a fun show. Marvel needs to keep doing that.

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Gamerguymass posted...

Yeah writers these days don't seem to understand the concept that if you are writing a story with a world filled with aliens and magic and superheroes then the social aspect of society will be different then our own.

They did the same thing on Disignated Survivor in season three. Like seriously, the story is that a bomb blew up the capital building during the State of the Union killing off the entire government, no one is going to give a shit about half the crap they wrote about. That and they moved to Netflix so all of a sudden all the characters discovered swear words for the first time and used them more then an edgy 13 year old. There's a reason why this was by far the worst season and it then got canceled.

Aww, I was about to start watching that show too.

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