Board 8 > [VGMC] Video Game Music Contest 15: Nominations thread, part 3

(+) Yeah! (+)

Mac Arrowny posted...

Seriously though just about a quarter of the tracks in this contest are returners and we have people like barrel/tennis/TRE/lefty who mostly push returners, along with new people who nominate songs they have no idea are returners. What proportion of the field do you think should be returners, ideally?

If my counting is correct, I was an even split this year. I tried to support 19 new songs and 19 returners but my final split was 11 new songs and 19 returners. The returners were more successful in attracting support so all 8 cuts I made were to new songs that failed to gain any traction.
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dowolf posted...

It makes me feel like playing the nomination game was the wrong move, which is a problem.

That's a good thing. I hate the nomination game.
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Hbthebattle posted...

but even with the bubble assistance, the person with a lot of songs in still has more that the person with very little, even with the added bonus from the bubble.

If you're telling me that my animal brain's emotional response is incorrect, then you are technically correct. Alas, I have never figured out the trick of telling my brain what things it should be frustrated by and which things it shouldn't >_>
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Mac Arrowny posted...

Seriously though just about a quarter of the tracks in this contest are returners and we have people like barrel/tennis/TRE/lefty who mostly push returners, along with new people who nominate songs they have no idea are returners. What proportion of the field do you think should be returners, ideally?

At least a third, given that we have 240 songs that will enter the bracket on any given year under the guise of being among the best songs to be there, and don't retire.

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azuarc posted...

But if you want to talk about songs I picked out and said "hey guys, could we get this in?" I had abysmal results. I nominated over 20 songs. 5 got in. One wasn't actually my pick, and one was more of a joke to see what happens if I drop something before the lock deadline. The only songs I can truly say I nominated that got in were Best of Times, Terminal March and Tonitrus.

@azuarc you have absolutely no fucking reason to complain, I nominated nearly twice as fucking many songs as you and got the same number in (after having to optimise to an extreme and actively cheat to get sufficient support because nobody's going to vote for stuff they haven't listened to otherwise) AND I'M HAPPY because I got fucking ANYTHING in this year. FUCK YOU

sometimes i actually feel guilty complaining about my poor luck in nom phases from contests like vgmc10 where i only got 1 in or whatever because uf8 has literally gone 0 while still actively participating.

i'm very happy for you to have actually gotten stuff in this time around!! sorry i wasn't able to support much of it but i liked your selections. Ikou (Authority) was one of my very favorite new discoveries!!!
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Toxtricity posted...

Ikou (Authority) was one of my very favorite new discoveries!!!

heh

if i hadn't prodded cako off valse directly onto ikou i wonder if it'd have managed to get in

really not comfortable with the methods i had to use this year with a lot of stuff like that, undoubling and redoubling to attract attention (within reason so i wouldn't be caught...), thinly veiled begging on vgmusic, actual collusion to negotiate optimal song options for certain games (which all failed but still). i did it because i had nothing to lose but i know i shouldn't have even then. It's just really fucking hard to get new stuff in if there isn't some ridiculous hype train for it and even it had its work really cut out for it being from the mobile game none of the nier fans care to acknowledge

speartip is gonna retire i can feel it

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speartip is gonna lose r1 more like

UF8 posted...

speartip is gonna lose r1 more like

good thing every song that gets in, even r1 songs, is going to retire this year like az said!

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time to get speartip banned before the contest

where's the bracket (so i can scribble out speartip's entry)

got you


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watson is going to sue nfun if we don't remove his songs from the contest i can feel it
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murasaki of suguri

I'm very happy to get noms in even if they tank first round, and happy I got support for things that ultimately didn't make it, to, for what that's worth.

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azuarc posted...

At least a third, given that we have 240 songs that will enter the bracket on any given year under the guise of being among the best songs to be there, and don't retire.

If they don't retire they're clearly not among the best songs :p
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I sort of wonder what the future is for the anti-rallying rule. People, myself included, walking the line is nothing new. But, this year it felt like people were more brazen than ever before with posting lists of songs they wanted more support for (but avoiding ever explicitly saying "please vote for"). I guess it's also possible that this is all just in my head since I haven't actually gone back to check what last year's nomination topic looked like.
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Team Rocket Elite posted...

I sort of wonder what the future is for the anti-rallying rule. People, myself included, walking the line is nothing new. But, this year it felt like people were more brazen than ever before with posting lists of songs they wanted more support for (but avoiding ever explicitly saying "please vote for"). I guess it's also possible that this is all just in my head since I haven't actually gone back to check what last year's nomination topic looked like.

Yeah, I wondered if my "this is my intent" message was skirting a border, but if it was there was no malicious intent in it, it was more "so I don't forget when I get home and can actually post without my phone taking a dump"

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i think locks having a specific end goal kind of encourages stuff that toes the line---which i think is fine because collaborative communication about what a group of people collectively wants is better than being silent and everyone ending up disappointed.

actual rallying (ie the ping in the singa rpg server that invalidated the entries listed in the 2nd post in this topic) is a very different thing imo. and closer to the actual thing discouraging of begging/etc is meant to prevent
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The things I think are actual problems are:

--Actual nom-trading, meaning someone is supported song that they otherwise wouldn't in exchange for receiving a support on one of their songs.

--Rallying people who weren't participating in the contest specifically with the goal of having those people support a particular song.

Things like asking "is there anyone out there willing to support X?" feel like they might be toeing the line when it comes to the letter of the law, but at least speaking for myself that seems fine as far as the spirit of the law goes. Things like stating your own intentions for your nominations don't really seem like a problem in either respect*.

*I guess it is worth saying that when done in a specific way either of these become subtle nom-trading in a way that isn't explicitly nom-trading which is also problematic, but I didn't really think anything ran into this problem this year.
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I didn't follow the exact details on what went on with the DQ'd song but from what it sounded like it did cross too far into being clearly rallying. I'm not saying the posts made in the nomination topic went that far. But a lot of them did feel like barely disguised nomination begging posts.

With that said, if people like how things are right now, I don't think it's a big deal to leave things as they are. It's not like I have any concrete recommendations for changes nor do I feel all the strongly that there should be changes.
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there has to be some liquidity -- i.e., some way to get people to actually coalesce onto some set of tracks. listing things you're potentially interested in is one of those ways. another is figuring out if there's any chance of others coming to a given track, or if it's dead in the water.

The world where you ban those feelers pushes noms more towards being a game of chicken, with nobody willing to move on or off of things until the last second in case someone moves onto them, and I don't think that's what we want.
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dowolf posted...

there has to be some liquidity -- i.e., some way to get people to actually coalesce onto some set of tracks.

Does there?
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on an additional personal ramblings on a hot topic of last page note, i personally don't like bringing back songs of mine that got into contests. It took me a pretty long time before i started deciding to push for Sasuke from Ultimate Ninja 5 again even though it nearly retired at the time, because I was satisfied that it got a chance to appear and really prove itself in the first place. retirement isn't really a goal to me by any means as... well, i obviously just see it as a function to help encourage more variety (new things) while still allowing people who weren't as satisfied with their pet songs performances another chance

the climate this year is entirely different to several years ago and that's why i was especially interested in giving new chances to stuff from back then, but even then, if you had to ask me whether i was more interested in getting in my first song in vgmc that got to be in 4 rounds back in vgmc6 (sasuke) or the song i've tried to get in like 5 times now (spiritual sky) more, my answer is still really a given

conversely i'm sure a ton of stuff does basically beg for new chances as many things not only disappoint in various years but get screwed in the brackets with seedings but well... they still got that chance for people to listen to them and decide how they felt about them in the first place. with the entry requirements becoming harder to fulfil each year, introducing enough people to unfamiliar things enough to simply compete with those songs that were there before to merely make it in is even more of an uphill battle... so yeah i considered the bubble criteria justified. if anything i'd have wanted more ways to prevent the memes of vgmc coming back again for very little reason. "legacy" or "heritage" shouldn't be things that have value here over not only exposure but also song quality in general but for a very apparent subset of users it does, and that deeply wounds me. i like all of tbiytc, rftm and id but i doubt many are trying to get them in because they love them more than what else is being nominated (14.5 rftm is an almost totally different song that doubles as my favourite game arrangement of it in my favourite official touhou fighting game with my favourite overall soundtrack (and a highlight of it), before people make accusations. it being nomination viable is a factor... as was highlighting how fundamentally fucked the situation with the original song is if not preventing it, but i wouldn't be pushing it if i didn't genuinely want it). the goal with them seems to openly just be to get them in, again, and continue to abuse the systems so they never leave. if that is the spirit of these contests people are desperate to defend, i have mixed feelings.

EDIT: oh yeah just to be clear i don't want to really suggest i'm actually against any changes tho just that i lament people not placing value in the same things lol

ps. things tend to operate like a game of chicken no matter what happens now

yes but you want to alleviate some of that pressure :)

as for old vs. new: ideally, the problem should solve itself because everyone can nom or support what they want, and people hopefully don't try to make others feel bad for falling on the other side of the fence as them.
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I've been seeing enough new faces around here to where I felt it'd be a good year to try some of my old nominations again

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UF8 posted...

@azuarc you have absolutely no fucking reason to complain, I nominated nearly twice as fucking many songs as you and got the same number in (after having to optimise to an extreme and actively cheat to get sufficient support because nobody's going to vote for stuff they haven't listened to otherwise) AND I'M HAPPY because I got fucking ANYTHING in this year. FUCK YOU

I feel I have reason to complain. I'm not going to spell out all the reasons why because we don't need the kind of nastiness that would ensue from all sides, but if you're happy with your results, then I am happy for you.

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I don't have a hard, fast personal "rule" when it comes to returners, but I am more inclined to support and nominate songs that have never been in the contests and probably more importantly to me, are from games that have yet to have VGMC representation. Between my noms and supports this year:

- 21 were from games with no previous VGMC history
- 6 were from games that had one other representative in VGMC, but not the one that I nominated/supported
- 2 were former nominations of mine that made one appearance with multiple wins
- 1, depending on your perspective, was in before, but it's a remix that I feel completely changes the tone of the song, among other things

Since bracket construction and voter base determine outcome of the matches, a lot of songs can fall victim to bad luck, so I completely understand giving songs a second or even third chance as I have done numerous times. More than that though, and I know that I have done this once or twice, it can just seem like a waste and deny fresh songs or those looking for a second chance. I know more than most people it can be hard to admit that some songs just don't have a chance (though for me it is more about the nomination period than the actual contest), but I do feel as if the contest quality would improve if more people could just let songs go.
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Tangentially related, but some of my favorite OSTs I am probably done trying to get songs in personally, whether tentatively permanently or at least for quite some time:
- I got two Dustforce songs in a few years back. They both lost in R1, so while that is disappointing and azuarc admitted to underseeding them, I did get two in, so I'm satisfied to a degree for the time being.
- I have temporarily stopped nominating Bully and Plok songs, but I hope to resume one year. Snowboard Kids 2 might be in this category too.
- I got a PixelJunk Shooter song in once, and it won its first match! Knowing it doesn't really stand a chance at retiring and feeling like I am the only person who loves the songs, I am content with letting that OST go and thinking it was an accomplishment in and of itself just getting it. I'm not expecting InnerSpace to win its first match, but I feel similarly here and will probably move on after its performance.
- I got a second Opoona song in, and it retired. I'm good there.
- I got the only VGMC-viable Aliens Go Home Run song in twice. I really wish it would have retired, but I'm willing to let it go.
- I think that one of the craziest things is that three Outer Wilds songs have gotten in, and I nominated none of them! I had a VGMGG in 2019 about my Top OSTs, and Outer Wilds was my third-ranked OST at the time. While only one of the three songs to have gotten in is in my Top 10 from the OST (Outer Wilds), I don't feel compelled to ever nominate a song (knowing that none will ever likely win a match also played a role).
- I would really love to get a Duck Game and Sudeki song in, and I will probably try them again next year and maybe even try two songs each to put out more feelers (I elected not to nominate Sudeki this year).

Maybe two is a magic number for me.
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azuarc posted...

I feel I have reason to complain.

it's not the whining i am inherently taking issue but the fact that you dare to call a position better than mine as abysmal. the fuck does that make me? somebody just not trying hard enough? the only song i got in that didn't require me to actively tell people to listen to it was high fiber cereal (which surprised me and will surely lose very badly round 1) and it still didn't have an easy time as far as i can tell all thanks to its obscurity which, oh that's right, could've been alleviated to some extent if it had made it in before, but i suppose we can't have that

azuarc is allowed to have his own personal standards without holding you or anyone else to them

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KCF0107 posted...

- I got a second Opoona song in, and it retired. I'm good there.

i actually almost ALMOST nominated another opoona song this year, but decided to delay given how much success the one song had last year. but don't think it's the last of it...! it's one of my favorite soundtracks and has quite a lot of songs to choose from!
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UF8 posted...

deciding now to take a hard stance against the solitary, extremely niche benefit left for newcomers is just... yeah

to be clear i really empathize with your position strongly. as someone who from as early as vgmc3 was naturally attracted to obscure stuff no one here had heard of; but felt intimidated by how impossible it was for that shit to get attention. why i initially settled for "corridors of time" in noms rather than 'obscure' picks i cared about much more like "light crusader" or "floating runner" or "ys i&ii pce" (wait what?). I could only get luck with obscure stuff if i knew my only friend here at the time (gamebop) also knew it which is why puchi carat and weird myst-clones like reah got in

being cursed with obscure taste and familiarity zones can be really alienating; and it's not inherently weaker shit, the obscure things in the retirees are there for a reason. but it takes a lot of work for the community to notice them enough for them to get in at all. and it's not just to be a "hipster" that thinks they are "cool" and "better" than those with more ""normie"" tastes. having obscure tastes is like a fucking CURSE. you're suddenly alone and you may not even have a clue how alone you are until you come to a place like this after living in a bubble your whole life where you have no concept that you are actually the only person in a group of 100 who has played 75%+ of the games you've played.

things are definitely better than they were 12 years ago for people who have obscure tastes that include things that've never been before. but "people favoring stuff that hasn't been in before is ELITIST!!!!!" IS IN ITSELF a disgusting, horrible elitist stance, that crushes people who are already down. and i'm very glad you're being loud about how you feel here because it is important for [people who are lucky enough to like stuff normal and recognized enough to find easy success] to hear. they need to know what spoiled brats they are being for having the gall to complain about some people favoring obscure or new shit; while simultaneously complaining they got literally more in than someone like you.

I really don't want vgmc to feel tainted by negativity and arguments and this past day or so has been abnormally heated. but at the same time i was incredibly upset with a lot of the way azu has been asserting legit toxic shit with this complaint imo, so i sort of feel your response is justified tbh.

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just...i really hope everyone calms down and me speaking in here isn't making it worse.

different people have different approaches and that's fine. but please don't decide that one approach or another is BAD (the whole spectrum from barrel's barrel of FE songs that've been in every year; to people like KCF/uf8/me who have to upload half of what we like because it isn't on youtube and only look at new stuff), because when you do that, you have no fucking clue which minority of distinct preference you're indirectly damaging and further ostracizing with these hard stances.

anyways, i'm glad a sizable portion of people at least try to listen to all the noms, and give new things a chance, if not MORE of a chance than old things. an increasing movement favoring unusual or unheard of picks that haven't been in before is GOOD. it really benefits a crowd that used to be down and although it's not nearly enough, it's certainly a significantly more balanced situation than when anything weird would just get entirely skipped over.
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on a lighter FUN STATS note:

here's how many init noms each person got in (deo and i figuring this out for bracket making purposes)

13:
Hbthebattle

10:
th3l3fty

9:
FL81

8:
kamakazikila, Toxtricity, trdl23

7:
_LouieG_, kaonashi1, NFUN, rwlh

6:
banshiryuu, Earthshaker, TheArkOfTurus

5:
Arti, azuarc, cakophon, DireKrow*, DoctorJugaJuga, Flamander, HasteDeux, PIayer_0, Place, sergiocornaga, UF8

4:
Akkrillic, Collen, DoctorJimmy133, KCF0107, loweffortmemes, pyresword, Team Rocket Elite, tgs2, Zigzagoon

3:
barreldragon88, bebr117, Chaeix, DeadTaffer, Disillusion, dowolf, Janus5k, KidDivinegon, Plasman, Xarnax42

2:
GameBopAdv, GinNoIshi, HBJDubs, MoonRunes, PabloSmith, R-Man, RevolverAxolot, slykirby, Tked, yhenestik

1:
-hotdogturtle--, Chuck_Tingle, HidekuniHorita, JONALEON1, Mac Arrowny, neothewoodman, ShouldIBe, Snajed, Snake5555555555, tazzyboyishere, xp1337, xx521xx, ZelRaat

*=note: dire's count is including vast poni canyon, which he actually abandoned despite being the first to nom it, but the nom still got in through others' votes

this is all a very blunt, no frills count based on the initial nominator only. obviously when you factor things like something someone was planning on nominating but someone else got there first, or things that someone nominated based on hearing others talk about it, it's not a full accurate picture of who had most influence over the field.

and OBVIOUSLY including supports beyond initial nominator would change the picture of who gets defined as having the most success as well
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I should have one higher for Sen

And one lower for Kohri and another maybe for Bahram

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NFUN posted...

I should have one higher for Sen

And one lower for Kohri and another maybe for Bahram

imo arguably one lower for mmbn3 navicust too

if we were actually thinking about things this way i would wind up with a position as high as hb lol. so many people got to things i was planning on nominating before i did this year
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to be fair, I think most people would have a higher number

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I forgot I was first for Navicust. But I only was because you people kept TALKING about it and kept not DOING it

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It looked like I was going to get a little more of my noms in in the final minutes, but alas, the threshold was a little higher than I expected

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Yeah I also lost a few of mine I thought might make it in.

They were r1 losses anyways, but still a bit upsetting.
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UF8 posted...

if i hadn't prodded cako off valse directly onto ikou i wonder if it'd have managed to get in

for what it's worth i definitely was going to jump off the stuff in my list if it didnt get any support from it being posted, regardless of prodding. i like ikou a lot (and valse, but that seemed like it had less people interested in it)

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i think cases like those interactions really aren't "cheating" or even skirting the line as some are hyperbolizing. they're just upfront straightforward communication about intent. and that's important for everyone's happiness in the end as long as no one is too left out of it

(this is getting harder lately when vgmc discussion is happening between 4 different discords for the different communities that all participate, on top of the gamefaqs board itself. more outlets for a bit more unified communication is ideal, like putting those prospect playlists and pre-nom prospect sort of discussion at the forefront in a more 'official' manner. and making it clear they're things to be looked at as they're to everyone's advantage to pay attention to. or something!)
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cakophon posted...

for what it's worth i definitely was going to jump off the stuff in my list if it didnt get any support from it being posted, regardless of prodding. i like ikou a lot (and valse, but that seemed like it had less people interested in it)

oh that i know, it was just that i also wanted to make sure valse was dropped too since i thought their voting pools might be too similar (plus pressing to get ikou to 3/3 as early as possible)