Board 8 > Hot take time: What is the worst story you've ever seen in a story-driven game?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Admittedly it's been a long, long time since I've played Abyss, but my recollection was along the lines of: While the party does place some blame on Luke, it's when he tries to say he wasn't at fault at all that makes them go over the deep end and tear him apart... atop the stressful situation they're in in the aftermath. Had Luke admitted that he bore some of the blame I don't think they would have reacted as harshly, but the last thing they wanted to hear was "It wasn't my fault!" Guy seems to reflect on this and ditches the party to rejoin Luke. Tear happens to hang around in Yulia City long enough for Luke to process and resolve to do better. Now Jade, Anise, and Natalia are assholes about it for different reasons. Jade damn well knows better given he figured out Luke's situation long before... but he only admits he was also at fault for what happened at Akzeriuth in one of Abyss's many missable sidequests. Natalia is pre-character development and a brat. Anise is the worst though, because when Ion actually tries to speak up in Luke's defense by pointing out that he (Ion) was at fault for releasing the seal Anise shuts him up to pile on Luke some more.

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Just because something is real doesn't mean I have to roll with it. Luke gets abused by the other party members at his lowest point, then they get off scot-free for almost everything they did that was actually their fault. That is not enjoyable. If the game was trying to tell a message (which it is), it failed miserably.

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KamikazePotato posted...

Hard disagree. If you have no reason to realistically believe that an action you take would cause a tragedy, then it is not your fault. Anything else is victim blaming.

I mean...impact matters much more than intent in this situation!

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My hot Abyss take is that even at the beginning of the game, Luke is only, like, the fourth biggest asshole in his own party.

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Kenri posted...

My hot Abyss take is that even at the beginning of the game, Luke is only, like, the fourth biggest asshole in his own party.

i mean, like, that's actually probably true >_>

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xp1337 posted...

Admittedly it's been a long, long time since I've played Abyss, but my recollection was along the lines of: While the party does place some blame on Luke, it's when he tries to say he wasn't at fault at all that makes them go over the deep end and tear him apart... atop the stressful situation they're in in the aftermath. Had Luke admitted that he bore some of the blame I don't think they would have reacted as harshly, but the last thing they wanted to hear was "It wasn't my fault!" Guy seems to reflect on this and ditches the party to rejoin Luke. Tear happens to hang around in Yulia City long enough for Luke to process and resolve to do better. Now Jade, Anise, and Natalia are assholes about it for different reasons. Jade damn well knows better given he figured out Luke's situation long before... but he only admits he was also at fault for what happened at Akzeriuth in one of Abyss's many missable sidequests. Natalia is pre-character development and a brat. Anise is the worst though, because when Ion actually tries to speak up in Luke's defense by pointing out that he (Ion) was at fault for releasing the seal Anise shuts him up to pile on Luke some more.

This is super on point for it being a long time ago.

A lot of Natalia was behind sidequests, too.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I mean...impact matters much more than intent in this situation!

this is the same shitty logic that leads people to blame themselves for their friend getting hurt because they asked them to get a fucking gallon of milk from the store and they got hit by a car on the way back

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xp1337 posted...

stuff

Saying 'it's not my fault' for stuff that was, in fact not your fault, is a very legitimate response to an intense emotional situation.

Let me portray an example. Lucas is putting on a play with other people. Lucas is a jerk, and very few people like him. Lucas' is given a prop gun by his play instructor Mr. Car, who he respects very much, and told to use it at a crucial scene. Lucas goes, sure! It'll make the play even better. I trust Mr. Car's judgement.

Then he uses it, and it turns out the prop gun is a real gun. Someone is shot and killed, and it wasn't an accident. Mr. Car gave that gun to Luke so that he would kill that person without knowing it. Now, the other actors are upset, and Luke is an easy target. So they dogpile on him, put the blame on him, and make him quit theatre. He then falls into a depression he almost never recovers from.

That seem fair to you?

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Yeah, I don't know if Tales ever stopped its tendency to hide vital character development behind obscure sidequests, but Abyss isn't the only offender in that regard.

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NFUN posted...

this is the same shitty logic that leads people to blame themselves for their friend getting hurt because they asked them to get a fucking gallon of milk from the store and they got hit by a car on the way back

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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NFUN posted...

this is the same shitty logic that leads people to blame themselves for their friend getting hurt because they asked them to get a fucking gallon of milk from the store and they got hit by a car on the way back

No, it's closer to someone shooting someone because they were playing around with a gun their friend told them wasn't loaded.

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NFUN posted...

this is the same shitty logic that leads people to blame themselves for their friend getting hurt because they asked them to get a fucking gallon of milk from the store and they got hit by a car on the way back

I know B8 loves shitty analogies but this is not what I meant and what the "in this case" is for

We can and do assign blame in negligence cases when it's warranted

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Leonhart4 posted...

Yeah, I don't know if Tales ever stopped its tendency to hide vital character development behind obscure sidequests, but Abyss isn't the only offender in that regard.

Oh for sure, but it's DEFINITELY the worst about it.

I don't think Berseria has this issue at all IIRC, but that's a wierd case where they expect you to know stuff from Zesteria and it hasn't, like, actually happened yet.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

No, it's closer to someone shooting someone because they were playing around with a gun their friend told them wasn't loaded.

Van specifically told Luke that it would help people. To Luke, it wasn't a loaded gun, it was a way to make the world better that he was specifically instructed to use.

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Yeah, "I didn't know what I was doing" isn't necessarily a legitimate defense.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

He's both a victim and a perpetrator. It is not at all mutually exclusive.

And I feel like a big part of it is that Luke has had plenty of opportunity to grow and learn by this point in the story and has rejected all of them. He's a victim but isn't completely devoid of agency!

This is absolutely the correct take.

And Luke would agree with it as well, no gaslighting needed. There's an early game skit in the Cheagle Woods where he repeatedly forces Mieu to breathe fire all over the place, and when Tear calls him out for the danger of burning down everything, he responds that it would be Mieu's fault if that happens since he's the one actually breathing the fire.

It's amazing how a game that beats players over the head with the idea that no one and nothing are ever exclusively good or bad and that trying to deal with the word through absolutes causes only problems because basically nothing is black-or-white still has so many people completely miss the point.

Equally amazing is the Luke/Anise thing.

Luke: Nukes an entire town due to being told he'd get a bunch of personal glory etc. out of it, insisted over and over afterwards that it wasn't at all his fault, and was a massive asshole in general. Therefore, a party who barely knows each other and, in multiple cases, outright distrusts and dislikes each other, gives him no leeway whatsoever.

Anise: Ends up causing the death of one person (an important one, but one nonetheless) due to being in a literal hostage situation with the most powerful group of people on the planet, is actively trying to prevent it as it's happening, and shows remorse immediately afterward. Also, Ion had some choice in the matter as well since he wanted to save Tear anyway. Therefore, a party who has grown closer and grown immensely as individuals as well actually do give her some leeway. This is not hypocrisy. This is character growth. Treating Luke, a prick, like crap after Akzeriuth didn't really help matters. Why would treating a remorseful friend like crap many moons later do any good either?

The only thing those two events share in common is that bad stuff happens.

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KamikazePotato posted...

Saying 'it's not my fault' for stuff that was, in fact not your fault, is a very legitimate response to an intense emotional situation.

Let me portray an example. Lucas is putting on a play with other people. Lucas is a jerk, and very few people like him. Lucas' is given a prop gun by his play instructor Mr. Car, who he respects very much, and told to use it at a crucial scene. Lucas goes, sure! It'll make the play even better. I trust Mr. Car's judgement.

Then he uses it, and it turns out the prop gun is a real gun. Someone is shot and killed, and it wasn't an accident. Mr. Car gave that gun to Luke so that he would kill that person without knowing it. Now, the other actors are upset, and Luke is an easy target. So they dogpile on him, put the blame on him, and make him quit theatre. He then falls into a depression he almost never recovers from.

That seem fair to you?

Lmao that dude would absolutely be at LEAST partially responsible in that scenario, but I do admit that the anime melodrama is unwarranted

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xp1337 posted...

Admittedly it's been a long, long time since I've played Abyss, but my recollection was along the lines of: While the party does place some blame on Luke, it's when he tries to say he wasn't at fault at all that makes them go over the deep end and tear him apart... atop the stressful situation they're in in the aftermath. Had Luke admitted that he bore some of the blame I don't think they would have reacted as harshly, but the last thing they wanted to hear was "It wasn't my fault!" Guy seems to reflect on this and ditches the party to rejoin Luke. Tear happens to hang around in Yulia City long enough for Luke to process and resolve to do better. Now Jade, Anise, and Natalia are assholes about it for different reasons. Jade damn well knows better given he figured out Luke's situation long before... but he only admits he was also at fault for what happened at Akzeriuth in one of Abyss's many missable sidequests. Natalia is pre-character development and a brat. Anise is the worst though, because when Ion actually tries to speak up in Luke's defense by pointing out that he (Ion) was at fault for releasing the seal Anise shuts him up to pile on Luke some more.

All of this is correct - your memory serves you well.

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NBIceman posted...

And Luke would agree with it as well, no gaslighting needed.

Cool, and Luke is wrong, and the game is wrong

I don't have to agree with a game's lessons just because it wants me to, especially in a series with as poor a writing track record as Tales

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Leonhart4 posted...

Yeah, "I didn't know what I was doing" isn't necessarily a legitimate defense.

The fact that the long example KP typed up and the super short version I belted out at the same time were basically the same thing but with opposite intentions I think is real telling about how this is just straight up fundemental differences in stances on responsibility.

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KP seems to think that Luke was basically a doll on puppet strings and that he had no agency to stop and think, well, maybe I shouldn't do this thing that I personally know nothing about

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I know B8 loves shitty analogies but this is not what I meant and what the "in this case" is for

We can and do assign blame in negligence cases when it's warranted

The point is that intent always matters. The validity of a decision depends solely on the circumstances that went into making it, completely independently of the actual result. It's only fair to assign blame for negligence when the consequences for possible (in)actions are reasonably foreseeable. When "you have no reason to realistically believe that an action you take would cause a tragedy, then it is not your fault".

If you dispute that assumption, dispute the assumption. You only disputed the conclusion

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Lmao that dude would absolutely be at LEAST partially responsible in that scenario, but I do admit that the anime melodrama is unwarranted

Yeah we're just going to have to completely disagree here. The tendency for society to assign blame simply out of a need to do so, when someone has no reasonable way to have realized what they were going to do would cause a tragedy, is something I hate.

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KamikazePotato posted...

Cool, and Luke is wrong, and the game is wrong

I don't have to agree with a game's lessons just because it wants me to, especially in a series with as poor a writing track record as Tales

Starting to think you've got some personal investment in the scenario here that's clouding you judgement.

If I'm off base with that though process then my apologies.

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_stingers_ posted...

KP seems to think that Luke was basically a doll on puppet strings and that he had no agency to stop and think, well, maybe I shouldn't do this thing that I personally know nothing about

Luke has almost no agency in the beginning of the game. He's a a 6-year old child who was only ever treated well by one person, is kidnapped, and treated poorly by the party. The Akzeriuth incident was in fact one of the first times he tries to have agency, and it's doing something specifically to help people, but he's being manipulated by the only person he trusts in the world.

Luke didn't know everything about the plot thingy he was doing, but he also had no reason to believe that Van was lying to him.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Starting to think you've got some personal investment in the scenario here that's clouding you judgement.

If I'm off base with that though process then my apologies.

Not really. I never went through a Luke type experience, and even as a teenager playing the game I thought it was very problematic and basically hated the plot.

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_stingers_ posted...

KP seems to think that Luke was basically a doll on puppet strings and that he had no agency to stop and think, well, maybe I shouldn't do this thing that I personally know nothing about

I mean Luke is gullible as heck, which Van uses to his advantage. Also Luke might be doing something he thinks is helpful, but he's also doing it for selfish reasons.

I'm not saying everyone's reaction to it was right or wrong, just that I understand it, and I enjoy Luke's redemption story afterwards.

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KamikazePotato posted...

That seem fair to you?

I don't think that's a complete analogy though!

Abyss: The party doesn't say Akzeriuth is 100% on Luke. They recognize that Van masterminded the whole thing and told him to do it. Now, minus Jade, they also think they're dealing with a young adult who should have the general knowledge, critical thinking, and self-awareness accompanying that. They (again, minus Jade which is why he is absolutely an utter asshole here) don't realize they're dealing with someone who is mentally a child (this is a fair criticism of the game in that it kind of waffles on how it implements this - is Luke mentally 7 or 17? Depending on the circumstances it can flip-flop a bit) following someone who is basically been a paternal figure.

Jade "gets away with it" in that he is legitimately portrayed as a sociopath. A high-functioning one who is usually pointed in the right direction, but the game doesn't shy away from the fact that Jade is messed up. Guy, who is the closest person to understanding Luke's situation on account of having lived there with him, is the one person who realizes after-the-fact that his reaction to Luke in the aftermath of Akzeriuth was uncalled for and that Luke needs someone by his side.

By the time the others get all this information and context so much shit has gone down they never really get to revisit the matter of Akzeriuth.

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Leonhart4 posted...

I mean Luke is gullible as heck, which Van uses to his advantage. Also Luke might be doing something he thinks is helpful, but he's also doing it for selfish reasons.

I'm not saying everyone's reaction to it was right or wrong, just that I understand it, and I enjoy Luke's redemption story afterwards.

Right, his lack of self awareness and unwillingness to even try and grow at multiple points beforehand culminate in a tragedy. If he were more willing to introspection, it's possible there is a point where he stops and thinks, Why has this guy been so nice to me despite the fact that everyone else gets fed up with my shit? and the game can go differently.

Putting all of the blame on Luke is obviously stupid but refusing to say he could have done anything to gain insight into the situation and prevent is is equally as stupid IMO

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xp1337 posted...

I don't think that's a complete analogy though!

Abyss: The party doesn't say Akzeriuth is 100% on Luke. They recognize that Van masterminded the whole thing and told him to do it. Now, minus Jade, they also think they're dealing with a young adult who should have the general knowledge, critical thinking, and self-awareness accompanying that. They (again, minus Jade which is why he is absolutely an utter asshole here) don't realize they're dealing with someone who is mentally a child (this is a fair criticism of the game in that it kind of waffles on how it implements this - is Luke mentally 7 or 17? Depending on the circumstances it can flip-flop a bit) following someone who is basically been a paternal figure.

Jade "gets away with it" in that he is legitimately portrayed as a sociopath. A high-functioning one who is usually pointed in the right direction, but the game doesn't shy away from the fact that Jade is messed up. Guy, who is the closest person to understanding Luke's situation on account of having lived there with him, is the one person who realizes after-the-fact that his reaction to Luke in the aftermath of Akzeriuth was uncalled for and that Luke needs someone by his side.

By the time the others get all this information and context so much shit has gone down they never really get to revisit the matter of Akzeriuth.

And see, all that's realistic character behavior, yes

But as far as it means for the overarching narrative, and the point the game is trying to make, it's gross. And Tales of the Abyss is absolutely trying to make a point.

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All this is doing is proving to me that Tales of the Abyss has a really good story

Snake5555555555 posted...

Man of Medan maybe, especially if you only play it single-player.

Sorry to interrupt the Tales of the Abyss love-in/hate-in, but I forgot to say that this may be the actual correct answer. Its so, so, bad, especially for coming off of Until Dawn. It doesnt even do the choices thing in a good way, what you can do with Shawn Ashmores character (who was marketed as the lead) straight up breaks the narrative and is really bad if you have one person playing as him. Waste of a cool idea for a horror story. At least Little Hope was something of a return to form I suppose.

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_stingers_ posted...

If he were more willing to introspection, it's possible there is a point where he stops and thinks, Why has this guy been so nice to me despite the fact that everyone else gets fed up with my shit? and the game can go differently.

I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption for him to have. Van has known Luke for years and they actually treat each other pretty well. There are plenty of assholes out there that have one or two friends that they're actually good pals with, and it would be ridiculous for them to assume that that one good friend they have is going to do a 180 heel turn and trick him into killing a bunch of people.

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KamikazePotato posted...

And see, all that's realistic character behavior, yes

But as far as it means for the overarching narrative, and the point the game is trying to make, it's gross. And Tales of the Abyss is absolutely trying to make a point.

And the point is "If I can change, and you can change, everybody can change."

Rocky IV basically already told the same story, but I appreciate having it in video game form


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NFUN posted...

The point is that intent always matters. The validity of a decision depends solely on the circumstances that went into making it, completely independently of the actual result. It's only fair to assign blame for negligence when the consequences for possible (in)actions are reasonably foreseeable. When "you have no reason to realistically believe that an action you take would cause a tragedy, then it is not your fault".

If you dispute that assumption, dispute the assumption. You only disputed the conclusion

Intent matters sure but if you can look at it in a vacuum completely divorced from impact, then surely you can look at impact in the other vacuum you've just created. Outsized impacts can outweigh best intentions.

Let's go back to the shitty analogy zone. If I ignore safety regulations at my job because I do not know them and someone dies as a result, I would absolutely expect to be held liable. Reasonable expectations can't be used as a shield because knowledge can be incomplete or expectations can be inherently flawed, so I disagree with the broad assumption.

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Leonhart4 posted...

And the point is "If I can change, and you can change, everybody can change."

Rocky IV basically already told the same story, but I appreciate having it in video game form

Theoretically, I would like it too! I just think the way TotA tries to tell it is very misguided and problematic.

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Paratroopa1 posted...

All this is doing is proving to me that Tales of the Abyss has a really good story

Literally every time a topic remotely similar to this comes up, Abyss discussion takes up at minimum a full page.

It was truly special when it came out, and it's a shame that Tales suffered such a long period of mediocrity afterwards. Not saying all those games were bad, Vesperia was mostly great (suffered towards the end which, supposedly, was the part Baba was in charge of before becoming the franchise lead for many years after), only a few were total duds, but it wasn't until Berseria that we got a other actual fantastic Tales game.

And honestly, as much as I do love Beseria and it's incredible cast and much improved gameplay, I think I still gotta give it to Abyss.

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Inspiring discussion is not equivalent to quality. The Room also inspires discussion.

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Honestly, at the time I finished Abyss, I wasn't even totally sure I liked it, but it just stuck with me and I've come to appreciate it more and more with time.

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The Mass Effect 3 ending might have inspired more discussion than any video game ever.

So let's all just agree ME3 is a top ten game of the ever and put this topic to bed

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As someone who hasnt played it, it seems like there is a degree of hatred for everything and everyone in that game that makes it seem like it may indeed be the worst. It is somewhat telling that the defences are mainly Well, everybody is absolutely insufferable for a very long time, but then.... Despite that I kind of want to play it! Seems like it is memorable and notable.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Intent matters sure but if you can look at it in a vacuum completely divorced from impact, then surely you can look at impact in the other vacuum you've just created. Outsized impacts can outweigh best intentions.

Let's go back to the shitty analogy zone. If I ignore safety regulations at my job because I do not know them and someone dies as a result, I would absolutely expect to be held liable. Reasonable expectations can't be used as a shield because knowledge can be incomplete or expectations can be inherently flawed, so I disagree with the broad assumption.

You consider all possible outcomes when making the decision. It's reasonable to foresee that there are safety regulations at the place you work, so ignorance isn't a crutch. As they say, ignorance of the law is no defense; it is an individual's responsibility to learn about this

Now, if you ask your manager about regulations and he says there are none, blame doesn't rely on you, because you were misled and had no reason to suspect deception. Being lied to by somebody you trust, especially in an unpredictable manner, isn't an outcome you can be expected to account for

Luke's case sounds more like scenario 2 than 1

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KamikazePotato posted...

Yeah we're just going to have to completely disagree here. The tendency for society to assign blame simply out of a need to do so, when someone has no reasonable way to have realized what they were going to do would cause a tragedy, is something I hate.

Also I hate this too but the reality is also that you can't have true reconciliation and justice by shifting blame away from harm. It's just important to not be too punitive while doing so.

And for the record, I don't think TotA is too punitive to Luke! He isn't jailed or executed, the party is (rightfully) furious with his actions and abandons him to try to address the problems Luke has created because they think (again, rightfully!) that he won't be of help while the world literally crumbles. When Luke takes atonement into his own hands he's given a second chance.

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Also real talk, the actual worst reason to avoid Abyss is that the soundtrack is ass. Meaning of Birth is lit and the rest is, well, not

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KamikazePotato posted...

Also real talk, the actual worst reason to avoid Abyss is that the soundtrack is ass. Meaning of Birth is lit and the rest is, well, not

!!!

Abyss has a good OST. =(

Especially compared to everything from Graces forward. (Minus Go Shiina's work on Zestiria)

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Intent matters sure but if you can look at it in a vacuum completely divorced from impact, then surely you can look at impact in the other vacuum you've just created. Outsized impacts can outweigh best intentions.

Let's go back to the shitty analogy zone. If I ignore safety regulations at my job because I do not know them and someone dies as a result, I would absolutely expect to be held liable. Reasonable expectations can't be used as a shield because knowledge can be incomplete or expectations can be inherently flawed, so I disagree with the broad assumption.

I mean, this is an inherently flawed analogy because you are an adult and it is literally your job to know those safety regulations, so its not valid for you to claim ignorance.

To go back to KPs analogy, Brandon Lee was killed on the set of The Crow when he was shot with a gun that was supposed to be loaded with blanks. No criminal charges were ever filed, including against the actor who actually fired the gun. Now, thats not exactly the same thing as saying there was no blame involved (Lees mother did get a settlement from the studio) but it shows that KPs analogy has more real world grounding than some people may admit!


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KamikazePotato posted...

Also real talk, the actual worst reason to avoid Abyss is that the soundtrack is ass. Meaning of Birth is lit and the rest is, well, not

My weird hot take is that I really don't like Meaning of Birth but I think the rest of the soundtrack is pretty good

Leonhart4 posted...

Honestly, at the time I finished Abyss, I wasn't even totally sure I liked it, but it just stuck with me and I've come to appreciate it more and more with time.

I kinda have this going on with Destiny 2 - I've got problems with it but so far throughout my Tales series playthrough it just sticks in my mind more than most and not to just use the same word but yeah appreciate it as I play more Tales games

Lightning Strikes posted...

As someone who hasnt played it, it seems like there is a degree of hatred for everything and everyone in that game that makes it seem like it may indeed be the worst. It is somewhat telling that the defences are mainly Well, everybody is absolutely insufferable for a very long time, but then.... Despite that I kind of want to play it! Seems like it is memorable and notable.

honestly for me tho the main event everyone's talking about isn't really that far in (not that it's super early) and everything after that point is just whatever

KamikazePotato posted...

Also real talk, the actual worst reason to avoid Abyss is that the soundtrack is ass. Meaning of Birth is lit and the rest is, well, not

it does have the best Tales OP tho

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Abyss has a few really great tracks (I don't actually think Meaning of Birth is one of them!), but yeah, by and large, not great. I wouldn't say outright bad though.

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Lightning Strikes posted...

As someone who hasnt played it, it seems like there is a degree of hatred for everything and everyone in that game that makes it seem like it may indeed be the worst. It is somewhat telling that the defences are mainly Well, everybody is absolutely insufferable for a very long time, but then.... Despite that I kind of want to play it! Seems like it is memorable and notable.

No matter which side you end up on, it was definitely the Tales game with the most to say and the most risks in its story at the time and for long after. There's no doubt it's a very unique and interesting entry in the franchise, and the most memorable, even if you hate it.

Compared to the coating of Vaseline blandness smeared over the stories of every game in the franchise for a decade+ after...

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