Current Events > Can someone explain to me how more crime and less police is a good thing?

(+) Yeah! (+)

TheHoldSteady posted...

I think police serve a purpose but need much better training and education. You can become a police officer without a degree which is absurd to me

Yes, which would require more funding.

IMNOTRAGED posted...

But either way there's little evidence suggesting that more police means less crime.

Entirely false.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/04/20/988769793/when-you-add-more-police-to-a-city-what-happens

While they find serious crimes fall after the average city expands its police force, the economists find that arrests for serious crimes also fall. The simultaneous reduction of both serious crime and arrests for serious crime suggests it's not arrests that are driving the reduction. Instead, it suggests merely having more police officers around drives it. These findings are consistent with other research that finds concentrating police in "hotspot" crime areas appears to be an effective way to reduce crime.

---

SSJPurple posted...

Id like better trained police and less people in jail for petty crimes like possession charges.

T H I S

---

Bottom line, the picture the economists' data sketches out is complicated. On the one hand, Black communities generally appear to benefit from larger police departments when it comes to lowering the homicide rate and the rate of other serious crimes. But their data also shows these findings don't seem true for cities with the largest Black populations. And throughout the country, they find significant racial disparities in low-level arrests, with lots of Black people getting prosecuted for low-level crimes, resulting in many lives damaged without necessarily improving public safety.

---

it's to flatten the curve

---

@IMNOTRAGED Yes, because we have a systemic problem when it comes to the judicial system in America. Nobody is arguing against that.


---

Samurontai posted...

Also you cannot compare the United States to other countries when it comes to basically anything, especially not the police lol.

You can, and it's a very common thing to do so. Looking at systems that work and modeling your own system after it is a very efficient way of doing things.

All the data shows that strong social programs and less income inequality results in less crime, independent of police presence. It's extremely disingenuous to look at cities that reduced their police funding without doing anything else to improve people's economic situation, then say "well I guess defunding the police doesnt work after all!"

---

Japan's system works, should we adopt it?

---

I like it when dogs don't get shot by the police, so the less of them there are, the better. This also applies to innocent human beings, in that I don't like them to be shot by the police. I DO, however, like viciously harsh and seemingly unfair legal punishments for police officers who step out of line. You wouldn't believe how excited that makes me.

---

shnangyboos posted...

Japan's system works, should we adopt it?

Japan's system 'works' because guilty is the default verdict

---

Samurontai posted...

The mayor of Baltimore, who led efforts as a city councilman to cut the police budget by $22 million last year, recently proposed a $27 million increase.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/politics/bs-md-pol-police-budget-explainer-20200617-4yjweepbkreknjlef4f45jiblm-story.html

"The mayor is expected to act on the budget in the coming days, allowing it to take effect July 1 (2021)."

Literally has only been 17 days.

Baltimore City has a high poverty rate which contributes to crime and covid definitely made it worse.

https://wtop.com/maryland/2020/09/survey-shows-marylands-poverty-rates-and-the-racial-gap-beneath-them/
"Baltimore City has the highest poverty rate in Maryland, at 21.8% of its population, while Calvert County has the lowest, at 5.1%.

The areas with the highest rates of poverty are Baltimore City and Somerset and Allegany counties. Baltimores poverty level is 131.5% above the states poverty line, while Somerset County is at 117% and Allegany County at 75%, according to the report."

Samurontai posted...

After attacks on Asian-Americans and a rise in homicides in Oakland, Calif., city lawmakers in April restored $3.3 million of the $29 million in police cuts, and the mayor is now proposing to increase the departments budget by $24 million.

A broken clock.

https://www.ktvu.com/news/oakland-didnt-cut-any-money-from-the-police-budget-at-all
"Oakland police will get $674 million in the next budget cycle (from July 1, 2021, to June 30, 2023) compared to the previous 2-year budget cycle, when they were allotted $635 million. (The budget was reduced from $665 million during the 2020 cycle). Even if the budget hadn't been reduced in the middle of last year, the police department would have been allotted about $9 million more this budget cycle compared to the previous one.
...
EDITOR'S NOTE: This story was corrected to reflect there was a decrease in the OPD 2020 budget mid-cycle. "

Correlation is not causation. The attacks on Asian people were because of covid ignorance and racism. Is there a increase in all crime in Oakland? Is it the normal summer increase? Is it because covid-19?

"Despite a global pandemic and stay-at-home orders forcing businesses to shut down and modify, there was a surplus this year because of excess revenues from the federal government and state that helped local municipalities recover from financial hardships."

Demanding better trained cops but defunding the police is an oxymoron. Training is expensive and you need the funds to properly train law enforcement.

I've been a cop for 10.5 years and have a Bachelor's degree in Criminal Justice. I don't necessarily think more education requirements and college degrees are needed for good cops. The academy is good but only to a certain point. What counts is the *experience.* Getting out there and interacting with the public and being exposed to calls to service.

I laugh when people mention abolishing the police. I laugh because it will fail.

---

untouchable010 posted...

What counts is the *experience.* Getting out there and interacting with the public and being exposed to calls to service.

Derek Chauvin was the senior and he was training his officers to kill people like Derek did to Floyd.

less police is a good thing because it allows that funding to be allocated towards programs that actually improve people's lives and help them get out of poverty -- you know, poverty, the single biggest cause of crime

---

untouchable010 posted...

What counts is the *experience.* Getting out there and interacting with the public and being exposed to calls to service.

How does that prevent bad cops?

---

untouchable010 posted...

Demanding better trained cops but defunding the police is an oxymoron. Training is expensive and you need the funds to properly train law enforcement.

Since other countries spend less on their police forces (even as a % of budget) and see far fewer cases of police brutality, I'm dubious of this claim.

Perhaps throwing continuously growing budgets at police departments isnt the solution

---

A lot of people have Samurai tagged as a troll, I'm not 100% convinced he is black too. It's a common thing for Republicans online to pretend to be black to sneaky troll

---

Defunding some police is actually a good idea. Defunding some unnecessary funds that give them tanks for example. The idea is to train the police better. Theres some movement in the right steps by some cities hiring mental health workers to deal with people struggling with mental health cases to avoid untrained police from mishandling them.

---

Samurontai posted...

I feel like most people arguing for defunding the police are privileged white suburban dudes.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/315962/americans-say-policing-needs-major-changes.aspx

They don't have a category for privileged white dudes though.

Samurontai posted...

Yes, which would require more funding.

Entirely false.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/04/20/988769793/when-you-add-more-police-to-a-city-what-happens

While they find serious crimes fall after the average city expands its police force, the economists find that arrests for serious crimes also fall. The simultaneous reduction of both serious crime and arrests for serious crime suggests it's not arrests that are driving the reduction. Instead, it suggests merely having more police officers around drives it. These findings are consistent with other research that finds concentrating police in "hotspot" crime areas appears to be an effective way to reduce crime.

Interesting how you ignored these paragraphs:

But, at the same time, Williams and his coauthors also find adding more police officers to a city means more people getting arrested for petty, low-level, victimless crimes, like disorderly conduct, drinking in public, drug possession, and loitering. Black people are disproportionately the target of these low-level arrests, saddling them with crippling court fees and forcing many kids sometimes unnecessarily into the criminal justice system.

More Police May Leave Some Cities Worse Off
The economists also find troubling evidence that suggests cities with the largest populations of Black people like many of those in the South and Midwest don't see the same policing benefits as the average cities in their study. Adding additional police officers in these cities doesn't seem to lower the homicide rate. Meanwhile, more police officers in these cities seems to result in even more arrests of Black people for low-level crimes. The authors believe it supports a narrative that "Black communities are simultaneously over and under-policed." The economists don't have a solid explanation for why bigger police forces appear to lead to worse outcomes in these cities, and they plan to investigate these findings more deeply in future research.

The whole defund the police movement is complicated and far more nuanced than people on both sides will admit.

Samurontai posted...

And what do we do in the meantime?

Rebuild from scratch

There is no reason an uneducated high school bully should be making $75k salary. Being a cop is, contradictory to popular opinion, one of the safest jobs on the planet. The numbers don't lie. These people are armed losers, let's pay them as such ($35k/yr)

---

If you ever need someone to show up and shrug their shoulders 45 minutes after trouble happened, I got a number for ya

---

My favourite post in the topic was the TC telling someone they can't compare the US to other countries... because. No reason offered as to why, it made it so he could completely dismiss the point he was responding to.

---

why did tc disappear

---

using "crime" as a measuring stick for right and wrong in a nation where slavery was legal is a red flag to me.

maybe that person just hasn't considered how much government propaganda has molded their worldview, but I don't have time to deal with somebody like that.

catch up so we can have a real conversation.
---

Samurontai posted...

Contrary to the weird white twitter warriors, us black people mostly like the police.

speak for yourself.

---

Samurontai posted...

Contrary to the weird white twitter warriors, us black people mostly like the police.

and how did you glean this from the article? Im seeing not much support for that statement

---

salary aside, the most important change that needs to happen is mandatory body cams where the feed gets sent to an unaffiliated central agency

but it will never happen and that alone is proof that cops abuse their power

---

Oatcakes posted...

My favourite post in the topic was the TC telling someone they can't compare the US to other countries... because. No reason offered as to why, it made it so he could completely dismiss the point he was responding to.

you cant compare America to other countries because America is intentionally garbage to set standards low

---

This entire topic is disingenuous. There isn't necessarily a correlation between more police and less violent crime. Our entire judicial system is horrible and feels like something from a third world country. We arrest so many people in America that over 90% never get a trial (you know, the thing where they have to prove your guilt that everyone is guaranteed to get if they want one). If you opt for a trial, you often have to wait years and will be on the hook for much more serious charges to penalize you for executing your constitutional right to a speedy trial (and some courts have a near 100% conviction rate despite a not so small rate of false convictions that are out there).

The trouble starts with the police. According to the Supreme Court, they have no obligation to protect you. They are just there to enforce whatever laws please them. And given that the average American adult unknowingly commits around three felonies per day, they can find a reason to arrest anyone they want. They can beat you, maim you, or even kill you and face little to no repercussions. Even when huge scandals break, like when officers are caught planting evidence or trying to pin unsolved crimes on black people, the officers involved just get administrative leave or have to find a job somewhere else, if anything happens at all.

Federal policing is almost worse than state or local policing. The feds are at the forefront of the battle against civil liberties, common sense, and the truth. The ever increasing power of agencies like the FBI and NSA haven't been shown to have much, if any, positive impact on serious issues like terrorism or child exploitation. And yes, there have been shocking cases of FBI agents assaulting private citizens for essentially no reason and the courts doing nothing because qualified immunity.

What kind of people are going to be drawn to a job with vast power over people, the ability to do violence to others, and no accountability? Certainly not the best. And with many departments using IQ tests to weed out potential cops that would be too smart, not the brightest either. Short of dissolving the bill of rights, we do everything possible to make policing horrible, and yet people are still framed as unreasonable lunatics when they want something better. It's insane.

Are there good officers out there? You bet! But the reforms people desperately want won't negatively impact good cops doing an honest job, so what's the problem? There is far too much circling of the wagons where the good cops try and pretend that all the officers are like them and that reforms are unfair. They aren't. The tired saying about only criminals needing to fear the police would be true if they were all good people who did an honest job and could be held to account when they didn't. But that isn't the world we live in.

pick4six posted...

A lot of people have Samurai tagged as a troll, I'm not 100% convinced he is black too. It's a common thing for Republicans online to pretend to be black to sneaky troll

personally I don't care if he's black. his opinion on this issue is terrible regardless of what colour his skin is

---

people who use statistics to justify increasing/decreasing police presence, do realize that interaction between "crime statistics" and race is conflated with racial bias by the police, right?

viewmaster_pi posted...

the CHAZ or whatever was close

So much senseless death and violence there. Did they even catch the scumbag that killed that kid?
---

Oatcakes posted...

My favourite post in the topic was the TC telling someone they can't compare the US to other countries... because. No reason offered as to why, it made it so he could completely dismiss the point he was responding to.

I've noticed that TC has chosen to dismiss quite a few points itt for reasons that boil down to "just because"

---

The one argument I've seen some people make is "the US is too big and too culturally diverse" to compare to other societies. Which is just coded "there are too many black people here."

There is no reason we cannot learn from what other societies have done to reduce crime while not having militarily equipped police officers.

Problem is following those countries' methods don't make the weapons manufacturers, private prisons, and companies that rely on prison slave labor any money.

---

QueenCarly posted...

The one argument I've seen some people make is "the US is too big and too culturally diverse" to compare to other societies. Which is just coded "there are too many black people here."

There is no reason we cannot learn from what other societies have done to reduce crime while not having militarily equipped police officers.

Problem is following those countries' methods don't make the weapons manufacturers, private prisons, and companies that rely on prison slave labor any money.

The United States IS culturally diverse, and does not have a large black population proportionately to many other countries.

It sounds like you're projecting if you associate diversity with there being too many black people

Fam_Fam posted...

The United States IS culturally diverse, and does not have a large black population proportionately to many other countries.

It sounds like you're projecting if you associate diversity with there being too many black people

No, they're right. When conservatives say that, they just mean that there are too many black people.

---

Fam_Fam posted...

The United States IS culturally diverse, and does not have a large black population proportionately to many other countries.

It sounds like you're projecting if you associate diversity with there being too many black people

you're missing the point so spectacularly that it must be intentional

---

Fam_Fam posted...

The United States IS culturally diverse, and does not have a large black population proportionately to many other countries.

It sounds like you're projecting if you associate diversity with there being too many black people

might wanna re-read what i posted buddy

---

darkmaian23 posted...

There isn't necessarily a correlation between more police and less violent crime.

false. Koper curve. Your whole post is just filled with internet myths and inaccuracies. Especially in regard to IQ. Seeing as the average police officer has a higher IQ than the normal citizen

---

QueenCarly posted...

might wanna re-read what i posted buddy

i did.

i'm saying that "cultural diversity" IS a characteristic of the US, meaning that its not a invalid comment in itself, and "too many black people" isn't an accurate statement, unless you are suggesting that those people would also suggest that gun violence is more problematic in places which have higher proportions of black people (Which isn't the case, as their are many African nations with lower gun violence numbers than the US).

VigorouslySwish posted...

There is no reason an uneducated high school bully should be making $75k salary. Being a cop is, contradictory to popular opinion, one of the safest jobs on the planet. The numbers don't lie. These people are armed losers, let's pay them as such ($35k/yr)

This post is also false. Cops with degrees and military backgrounds get higher in the work force each year progressively.

okay, next lie. Safest job on the planet. By a glaring ignorant look. Police is the 14th most dangerous in America. BUT. When you take out freak accidents and stuff that lumberjacks do. Cops are the most 2nd most dangerous job when it comes to being assaulted, murdered, and coming in contact with violence in the US.

but why is it so safe right? Because of police training and tactics.

Do you guys just read topic titles? Does anyone actually research anything

---

Fam_Fam posted...

i did.

i'm saying that "cultural diversity" IS a characteristic of the US, meaning that its not a invalid comment in itself, and "too many black people" isn't an accurate statement, unless you are suggesting that those people would also suggest that gun violence is more problematic in places which have higher proportions of black people (Which isn't the case, as their are many African nations with lower gun violence numbers than the US).

so why does that cultural diversity mean the police can't be de-militarized

---

averagejoel posted...

so why does that cultural diversity mean the police can't be de-militarized

it doesn't, obviously.

Is darkprince45 a troll?

darkmaian23 posted...

Is darkprince45 a troll?

He's a self admitted cop.

---

VTBM posted...

Yes please! And it seems to always suburban white people with a savior complex thinking any minority can't think for themselves and that all police are bad because they were ticketed for not wearing a bike helmet, it pisses me off.

So now everybody thinks black people cannot think for themselves. Speak up but do not speak for someone who has not designated you.

---

darkmaian23 posted...

Is darkprince45 a troll?

Where was the troll? Everything I posted is well documented sources that I have posted MULTIPLE times here before.

sorry it doesnt fit your narrative?

---

ButteryMales posted...

Derek Chauvin was the senior and he was training his officers to kill people like Derek did to Floyd.

My statement still stands. Experience and learning in real life scenarios is important; more so than education alone. You can sit in a classroom all day but until you get out there and apply what you learned in real scenarios, you only know part of the job.

That's why keyboard warriors are annoying to listen to when they know the outcome of an incident and judge an officer's actions when they know what happened and the circumstances days after it occurred. Being in the moment, dealing with people you don't know that may or may not be trying to hurt or kill you affects your decision making as the incident evolves.

Degrees are good for the paperwork and computer side of the job. Getting out there and doing the job is different. Defunding isn't the answer.

If they keep hurting and taking away from police forces, then good cops like me are outta here. Attack us for doing our job correctly and still suing us isn't gonna keep good cops. Eliminating qualified immunity will eliminate good cops. If that goes away in my state, I'm out. Totality of the circumstances is everything in this job.

I promise I don't wake up and think "hmm, I wonder if I'm gonna use my gun today." All I think about is coming back home to my family at this point.

---