Current Events > Is a lesbian who won't have sex with trans women transphobic?

(+) Yeah! (+)

deoxxys posted...

Did you read the article linked in the OP?

Theres more then one thing there to dwell on:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-57853385

Heres the excerpt:
Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.
They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.
"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.
Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.
"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

I didnt read the article but goddamn

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Sounds like a #metoo incident ngl...

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epik_fail1 posted...

Your mentality is borderline rape culture, but ok.

That sure says a lot about how you view transgender people!

deoxxys posted...

Did you read the article linked in the OP?

Theres more then one thing there to dwell on:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-57853385

Heres the excerpt:
Another lesbian woman, 26-year-old Chloe*, said she felt so pressured she ended up having penetrative sex with a trans woman at university after repeatedly explaining she was not interested.
They lived near each other in halls of residence. Chloe had been drinking alcohol and does not think she could have given proper consent.
"I felt very bad for hating every moment, because the idea is we are attracted to gender rather than sex, and I did not feel that, and I felt bad for feeling like that," she said.
Ashamed and embarrassed, she decided not to tell anyone.
"The language at the time was very much 'trans women are women, they are always women, lesbians should date them'. And I was like, that's the reason I rejected this person. Does that make me bad? Am I not going to be allowed to be in the LGBT community anymore? Am I going to face repercussions for that instead?' So I didn't actually tell anyone."

pressuring someone to have sex is sexual assault by law


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skermac posted...

pressuring someone to have sex is sexual assault by law

By that logic, when a guy gets told "no" by a woman and tries to ask again until he gets her to finally relent, he's committing sexual assault?

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gunplagirl posted...

By that logic, when a guy gets told "no" by a woman and tries to ask again until he gets her to finally relent, he's committing sexual assault?

Yeah I agree, at worst its harassment but assault? No.

Makes things really difficult for men if yes secretly means no.

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gunplagirl posted...

By that logic, when a guy gets told "no" by a woman and tries to ask again until he gets her to finally relent, he's committing sexual assault?

Exactly, she wasn't ashamed because she was sexually assaulted, she was ashamed because she convinced herself she's transphobic if she didnt sleep with the transwoman on the basis of her having a penis

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epik_fail1 posted...

Most transgender people don't guilt people by telling them not having sex with them is transphobic.

Ooh, thank you for completely failing to understand what I said! It really shows that you have nothing to contribute to this conversation.

Spoiler alert: if you find someone attractive, they're not guilting you! You just need to own up to what you find attractive. It's that simple.

_Rinku_ posted...

if you find someone attractive, they're not guilting you!

But in these scenarios, we're usually talking about a person that the party in question does not find attractive, but is expected to consider as a potential romantic partner anyway.

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Gobstoppers12 posted...

But in these scenarios, we're usually talking about a person that the party in question does not find attractive, but is expected to consider as a potential romantic partner anyway.

And I pretty plainly said that if it's because you simply don't find them attractive, it's not transphobic. Y'all really want to make this more difficult than it really is.

Well I'm already seeing "genital preference", which is harmful and problematic as I have a "genital orientation". Update outdated language.

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gunplagirl posted...

And you can have a genital preference, but if your vagina preference excludes trans women who have a vagina? It's not a genital preference.

yeah it is lol
post-op vaginas are nothing like real vaginas

KhlavicLanguage posted...

yeah it is lol
post-op vaginas are nothing like real vaginas

How do you know?

_Rinku_ posted...

How do you know?

Look at his karma, his main is probably suspended

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_Rinku_ posted...

And I pretty plainly said that if it's because you simply don't find them attractive, it's not transphobic

And if the reason they aren't attractive is because of the knowledge that they're a trans person?

Is that transphobic again? The rules are really granular, it seems.

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KhlavicLanguage posted...

yeah it is lol
post-op vaginas are nothing like real vaginas

like how vegan meat is nothing like real meat?

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gunplagirl posted...

By that logic, when a guy gets told "no" by a woman and tries to ask again until he gets her to finally relent, he's committing sexual assault?

LL doesn't seem to think so

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Bass_X0 posted...

like how vegan meat is nothing like real meat?

Now hold on. Don't you bring my meat loving ways into this. Vegan meat imitation is just that. You can't taste the suffering that goes into real chicken tendies. Mmm! Tasty!

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I'm guessing this is the article the BBC made based on shoddy research done by the hate group lgb alliance?

No sane people are trying to make you have sex with people who have genitals you're not into it, but you should still accept the gender they are.

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Gobstoppers12 posted...

And if the reason they aren't attractive is because of the knowledge that they're a trans person?

Is that transphobic again? The rules are really granular, it seems.

Yeah. It's explicitly because they're transgender in that case, so it's transphobic. Again, not a difficult concept.

Is a lesbian who won't have sex with trans women transphobic?

lol no

thats been a stupid controversy for decades, and its not an uncommon reason some of the accused become hardcore TERFs
the accusation is unsound and offensive, its an attempt to pressure women to change our dating preferences according to SOMEONE ELSES demands
historically that is never for our benefit, its to control and herd us like sheep to serve someone elses agenda

today we occasionally get told we're hateful phobes if we're not automatically including trans women into our dating rosters
usually by some self-centered dumbass regurgitating flawed rhetoric and failing to realize the evils of peer pressure
im fine with referring to someone as another type of woman despite what they were genetically born as
but that does not mean me or any other women are then obligated to date trans folk in order to accommodate someone elses needs
like ive had to tell some men before who didnt like hearing no, me and my sisters are not here to be a fucking utility...

thankfully not all trans folk got that insane authoritatively manipulative mentality goin on, but theres still an unfortunate fringe of them in media spotlights that are really just spewing bullshit to benefit themselves at the cost of other peoples freedoms and hoping it sticks

nobodys entitled to dates or relationships
if theres a lot of trans folk having trouble finding partners after coming out, thats not cis women's responsibility to resolve
lesbians got our own pitfalls we been dealing with for centuries, take care of your own

im pro trans rights, assistance programs for therapy/transitions, workplace protections, etc
but im womens rights first and telling us we're bigots for not dating another group steps on our right to choose...

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Honestly I am interested in hearing from our first cis lesbian in this topic. Are these kinds of accusations an actual problem for you? Do you hear it personally?

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CyricZ posted...

Honestly I am interested in hearing from our first cis lesbian in this topic. Are these kinds of accusations an actual problem for you? Do you hear it personally?

barely a problem, its really only the fringe wackjobs and their virtue thirsty sycophants who parrot it
but the rhetoric is always stupid to hear and insulting to us as marginalized women ourselves
its literally saying "either you submit to being open to dating us (by arbitrary rules we dictate) or you're bad and anti-trans, fuck your history as another minority"
what a choice...

but thats the point, the tactic is not about giving a real choice, its about suppressing other peoples freedom to choose without harassment

ive met plenty of reasonably-minded trans folk who DONT support the braindead oddly fascist rhetoric of "not interested in dating someone trans = transphobic"
im not worried about this bullshit taking over the country, theres plenty of trans folk who dont support bullying people into submission
most cis women would never really opt for it either no matter what we say on social media, the clout's not enough
and if we dont push for it, the men generally wont have incentive to either
most people tend to distance themselves from anyone pushing awkward oppressive crap like that

its just so ridiculously hypocritical to hear, especially how often its from someone who admits they exclude other LGBTQ from their own dating prefs
and you know who let me in on that occasional irony within trans communities?

the smart civil trans folk who agree its all bs pushed by lil whiny extremists trying to pressure naive people into commitments they dont actual want

ty for asking


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Arcanine2009 posted...

Would she be heterophobic for not wanting to date men? Would a cisman be homophobic for not wanting to date other men?

What's your definition of transphobic exactly? Doesn't seem to align with the text book definition that is based on fear, dislike, prejudice and violence.

Do you see differences between wanting to date someone as a partner based on sexual preferences vs having a platonic friendship?

Jesus fucking Christ. Next you'll tell me refusing to date someone with brown eyes is like being gay. Being gay is not heterophobic. Being straight is not homophobic. Refusing to date an entire demographic of the gender you are attached to based on assumptions and fears is prejudiced.

You are born straight. You aren't born disgusted by women with tattoos.

I'm using the definition of having an irrational aversion to something. I don't know why you're bringing violence and shit into the equation. Seems like you're the one picking and choosing definitions.

And yeah, I am pretty sure I am aware of the concept of platonic relationships. That's the only kind of human relationship I have ever had. Relevance?

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NonDairyMiltank posted...

the smart civil trans folk who agree its all bs pushed by lil whiny extremists trying to pressure naive people into commitments they dont actual want

What kind of thin skinned snowflake feels pressured into making a different choice just because people disagree with their choice?

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NonDairyMiltank posted...

ty for asking

I have one other question and you don't need to answer, but this one comes up a lot in these topics and I'm interested in your perspective:

How important do you think it is for a trans woman to disclose to a prospecting connection that she's trans? Would you want that to be done as soon as possible, or would it make more sense for it to come out as relationship progresses?

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remember: "transphobic" is a descriptive term. it describes something that already exists. recognizing that someone's behaviour is transphobic, and pointing it out, is different from suggesting that they change that behaviour; and it's important not to conflate them

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RoseLuck2X22462 posted...

These types of people are like those that say you shouldn't go by your own preferences, as if those are something you even choose yourself btw.

Sexual attraction isn't black and white, it's much more dynamic.

It is very dynamic. And that's why people shouldn't act as if their personal preferences are hard and fast natural rules rather than choices based on personal experiences that could change given the right (or wrong) situation.

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Refusing to date men while straight = Straight

Refusing to date black women while straight = Racist

This has been my TED talk

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NonDairyMiltank posted...

barely a problem, its really only the fringe wackjobs and their virtue thirsty sycophants who parrot it
but the rhetoric is always stupid to hear and insulting to us as marginalized women ourselves

A big issue, as with this bbc article, is it is heavily pushed by the hate groups like the lgb alliance as if this is some massive threats to our liberties and we need to stand with our fellow queer women to fight against the invaders, when 99% of trans people understand what genitals someone has is important for sexual compatibility.

They want this shouted loud and proud, ignoring they are using the same rhetoric people used against same sex or inter racial relationships in the past, because the agenda is to make trans people who just want to be treated with human dignity seem a danger.

I've never met a trans person who has insisted I fuck them or be a transphobe and the few that think like that shouldn't be taken to be the majority.

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Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

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Calling people accurate terms isn't wrong because some crazy people try to rape people.

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Dathrowed1 posted...

Another reported a trans woman physically forcing her to have sex after they went on a date.

"[They] threatened to out me as a terf and risk my job if I refused to sleep with [them]," she wrote. "I was too young to argue and had been brainwashed by queer theory so [they were] a 'woman' even if every fibre of my being was screaming throughout so I agreed to go home with [them]. [They] used physical force when I changed my mind upon seeing [their] penis and raped me."

yeah, see, that's called sexual assault. there are people in every demographic who do that. do you have data which suggests that trans people are more likely to be perpetrators of sexual assault?

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Conflict posted...

Very, very few people are going to take issue with you not wanting to sleep with someone who has a penis. That's not at all controversial

And how would you describe these people?

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Gobstoppers12 posted...

But in these scenarios, we're usually talking about a person that the party in question does not find attractive, but is expected to consider as a potential romantic partner anyway.

I dont know anyone that will see someone as a potential romantic partner if they dont find them attractive, i dont say more than hello to someone I dont find attractive and romance doesnt even enter the picture if I dont find someone attractive, a label for someone doesnt bother me, if they are attractive im ready

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hockeybub89 posted...

Calling people accurate terms isn't wrong because some crazy people try to rape people.

How many trans people have you dated?

You say a lot of downright insane things. There is absolutely nothing wrong with refusing to date any sort of person of any type. Dating is way too personal of a thing to dictate like that. You can't go around telling other people what their needs should be.

If someone says they don't date X type of minority or whatever then it is fine. Dating is a whole different ballgame. No one is entitled to anything. The only thing that matters is the parties involved and how they feel about it.


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TommyG663513 posted...

How many trans people have you dated?

You say a lot of downright insane things. There is absolutely nothing wrong with refusing to date any sort of person of any type. Dating is way too personal of a thing to dictate like that. You can't go around telling other people what their needs should be.

If someone says they don't date X type of minority or whatever then it is fine. Dating is a whole different ballgame. No one is entitled to anything. The only thing that matters is the parties involved and how they feel about it.

I have dated zero any people and I have not tried to force or say anyone is entitled to dating anyone. I'm just a fan of accurate language.

You can't choose whether you are attracted to women, but you can choose if you write off entire subsets of women with limited information and biases.

If someone wants to have racist dating preferences, I don't think we should mandate that they change their mind. I just want to call them a racist.

Having common sense and using logic is not insane. I say nothing crazy and actively try to avoid it.

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Lol no. Of course she's not transphobic. She can do what she wants.

This is like calling men gay who won't date trans women.

It's all dumb shit.

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TommyG663513 posted...

How many trans people have you dated?

You say a lot of downright insane things. There is absolutely nothing wrong with refusing to date any sort of person of any type. Dating is way too personal of a thing to dictate like that. You can't go around telling other people what their needs should be.

If someone says they don't date X type of minority or whatever then it is fine. Dating is a whole different ballgame. No one is entitled to anything. The only thing that matters is the parties involved and how they feel about it.

I think he was responding to my post where a lesbian was threatened and then raped by a transwoman

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I think every person has the right to choose who they're romantically or sexually involved with. Getting into specifics labels and nuances past that are not very interesting to me

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Its just attempted grooming to try pressure someone to date a person that is not their type.

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Writing off an entire race of people from your dating pool is indisputably racist

It happens all over the world. It's actually quite common.

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I've always thought there was a pretty telling difference between "I am not attracted to that particular trans person" no matter how big that list gets, and "I know I will never be attracted to any trans people".

Bass_X0 posted...

It happens all over the world. It's actually quite common.

Yes, good sir.

Racism is quite common. We know.

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Revnir posted...

That being said it's kind of a dick move and totally unnecessary to scream it from the rooftops just to make people feel bad.

Honestly that's really all I'm saying. If you do what you do, no one's going to call you out on it unless you're actively hurting someone. If you reject a person and they say "you're a transphobe", or if you reject a person and they say "you're a racist", you are allowed to not give those people your time of day because you are allowed to reject a person for any reason, or for no reason at all.

But if you feel you have the confidence to say what some people are saying in these topics in broad strokes, then... really what do you get out of that? Who are trying to prove anything to?

Whenever these topics happen, the goal is to shit-disturb, and the people who will say actually harmful things consider it a field day to go nuts.

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hockeybub89 posted...

I have dated zero any people and I have not tried to force or say anyone is entitled to dating anyone. I'm just a fan of accurate language.

You can't choose whether you are attracted to women, but you can choose if you write off entire subsets of women with limited information and biases.

If someone wants to have racist dating preferences, I don't think we should mandate that they change their mind. I just want to call them a racist.

Having common sense and using logic is not insane. I say nothing crazy and actively try to avoid it.

this post gets the averagejoel seal of approval

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hockeybub89 posted...

I have dated zero any people and I have not tried to force or say anyone is entitled to dating anyone. I'm just a fan of accurate language.

You can't choose whether you are attracted to women, but you can choose if you write off entire subsets of women with limited information and biases.

If someone wants to have racist dating preferences, I don't think we should mandate that they change their mind. I just want to call them a racist.

Having common sense and using logic is not insane. I say nothing crazy and actively try to avoid it.

You don't want to mandate they change their mind, but you want to call them a racist.

So you wan to label something as a negative and make your disapproval known? For what purpose? Social influence?

Also, quite frankly, if you've never actually dated any person of any type then perhaps you should realize that may limit your perspective here

Dating is such a personal thing and damn near everyone has an array of preferences. Some things are flexible and some things are not.

If someone wants to date more along their "group" or whatever distinction that could be called then that is their choice. Choosing or not choosing to be interested in any sort of person for dating preferences shouldn't be interpreted as racism.

That isn't describing things accurately. That is attempting to imprint your own illogical and crazy moral standards upon others.

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