Current Events > Kevin Sorbo questions why California should pay slavery reperations.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Taharqa_ posted...

I've been consistent the entire time, and I've included the entirety of slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, exclusion from GI bill, etc in the reparations discussion. Focusing only on slavery (even though that has been the longest institution that black Americans have been under in this country) is an attempt to put it so far in the rear view mirror that any discussion of restitution is a non-starter, meanwhile Harriet Tubman and Ronald Reagan were alive at the same time at one point.

You still pivot when someone points out they don't agree with your philosophy on dealing with the problems.

I stated I don't expect white people also suffering around me to pay more taxes because of atrocities their ancestors might have done to my family. You respond by pivoting to some other family.

My point remains regardless of whoever the family. Not all black people are singing praise to this idea. Atrocities happened to many of our ancestors.

Not everyone supports the "sins of the father" outlook to deal with the problem.

asdf8562 posted...

You still pivot when someone points out they don't agree with your philosophy on dealing with the problems.

I stated I don't expect white also suffering around me to pay more taxes because of atrocities their ancestors might have don't to my family. You respond by pivoting to some other family.

My point remains regardless of whoever the family.

Did white people suffer when reparations were paid to the Japanese for their internment? To the Aleuts of Alaska? Or the other numerous reparations payouts over the last century?

It would be great if racial equity and restorative justice could be achieved by good faith, but over the course of history in this country far too many times the opposite has occurred. We've had to make piecemeal measures over time with no real teeth for economic redress. And restitution is not a "sins of the father" outlook, it's a claim against the Federal government. Making it into a personal, one on one thing is not what this is about, when it is actually something that was systemic and sustained by the government.

---

Taharqa_ posted...

Did white people suffer when reparations were paid to the Japanese for their internment? To the Aleuts of Alaska? Or the other numerous reparations payouts over the last century?

It would be great if racial equity and restorative justice could be achieved by good faith, but over the course of history in this country far too many times the opposite has occurred. We've had to make piecemeal measures over time with no real teeth for economic redress.

There's that pivoting again.

It literally does not matter what past scenario you bring up.

Your constant idea of pivoting doesnt change what I specifically said.

I dont expect my white friend to pay damages to my family for something his great great grandfather might have done to my family. Nor do I expect him to pay reparations for the wealth my family missed out on.

What happened in the past is awful but I don't expect descendants to pay me for it. He isn't doing any better in wealth than I am, nor is his family. I wouldn't demand more of a burden on him because of his awful ancestors.

I dont support the whole "sins of the father" philosophy.

You bringing up some other black family or some other past reparation does not change this. I dont support making descendants pay more taxes for anything because of atrocities their ancestors committed. I dont care what scenario you pivot to.

Yes btw, it's pivoting as I have stated now several times I don't support the ideology of "sins of the father" to fix/pay for a problem which includes any events in the past that cycles this idea.

asdf8562 posted...

There's that pivoting again.

It literally does not matter what past scenario you bring up.

I've been consistent this entire time. I'm interested in restorative justice, with actual teeth, not some feel good wish hoping that things will become equitable out of thin air. I'm interested in policies that will address the events that I listed.

---

asdf8562 posted...

There's that pivoting again.

It literally does not matter what past scenario you bring up.

Your constant idea of pivoting doesnt change what I specifically said.

I dont expect my white friend to pay damages to my family for something his great great grandfather might have done to my family. Nor do I expect him to pay reparations for the wealth my family missed out on.

What happened in the past is awful but I don't expect descendants to pay me for it. He isn't doing any better in wealth than I am, nor is his family. I wouldn't demand more of a burden on him because of his awful ancestors.

I dont support the whole "sins of the father" philosophy.

You bringing up some other black family or some other past reparation does not change this. I dont support making descendants pay more taxes for anything because of atrocities their ancestors committed. I dont care what scenario you pivot to.

And there goes your constant need to individualize this again, nobody is talking about you or your friend. This is bigger than you or him, bigger than me or anyone else on this board. Trying to keep this on an individual level ignores the systemic issue here.

---

Taharqa_ posted...

I've been consistent this entire time. I'm interested in restorative justice, with actual teeth, not some feel good wish hoping that things will become equitable out of thin air. I'm interested in policies that will address the events that I listed.

What you claim to be consistent on is irrelevant to me and what I said.

Taharqa_ posted...

And there goes your constant need to individualize this again, nobody is talking about you or your friend. This is bigger than you or him, bigger than me or anyone else on this board. Trying to keep this on an individual level ignores the systemic issue here.

It's not "individualizing" it. My stance on the matter is period.

You seem to be on this deluded notion that all black people are all joining hands on this idea based on your posts. We all don't unilaterally think reparations is the best way to address systemic racism.

Taharqa_ posted...

And there goes your constant need to individualize this again, nobody is talking about you or your friend. This is bigger than you or him, bigger than me or anyone else on this board. Trying to keep this on an individual level ignores the systemic issue here.

It's not "individualizing" it. My stance on the matter is period.

You seem to be on this deluded notion that all black people are all joining hands on this idea based on your posts. We all don't unilaterally think reparations is the best way to address systemic racism.

asdf8562 posted...

What you claim to be consistent on is irrelevant to me and what I said.

Ok, and you can have what you said. I said what I said.

---

Taharqa_ posted...

Ok, and you can have what you said. I said what I said.

Which is irrelevant to my post.

asdf8562 posted...

It's not "individualizing" it. My stance on the matter is period.

You seem to be on this deluded notion that all black people are all joining hands on this idea based on your posts. We all don't unilaterally think reparations is the best way to address systemic racism.

Strawman alert, I never said that black people are monolithic on this discussion. If I did go back and find the post.

My thought on this matter is that systemic racism will not be fixed without actual measures that have teeth. The very first thing that I listed is full restoration of the Voting Rights Act, I didn't mention anything about a 250-500k check for descendants of American chattel slavery.

---

Taharqa_ posted...

Strawman alert, I never said that black people are monolithic on this discussion. If I did go back and find the post.

My thought on this matter is that systemic racism will not be fixed without actual measures that have teeth. The very first thing that I listed is full restoration of the Voting Rights Act, I didn't mention anything about a 250-500k check for descendants of American chattel slavery.

Your entire rebuttal in this topic has been nothing but strawman.

Anytime someone responds addressing something specific, you pivot off to some strawman talking point to argue why you are right.

My initial post didn't even quote you, and you found some way to pivot way off to something else as if that changes anything.

asdf8562 posted...

Your entire rebuttal in this topic has been nothing but strawman.

Anytime someone responds addressing something specific, you pivot off to some strawman talking point to argue why you are right.

My post didn't even quote you, and you found some way to pivot way off to something else as if that changes anything.

LOL, ok

---

Let's be real here, the US government most certainly owes its Black population SOMETHING. What & how much that should be is debatable, but something should happen. Almost every notable group in US history from Native Americans, Japanese internment victims, & even Chinese railworkers has seen some compensation and/or acknowledgement, except Blacks. I mean, it will obviously never happen for a lot of reasons, but it should.

Also, let's drop the disingenuous BS of pretending this is just about slavery. It extends to Segregation, Jim Crow, Red Lining, the complicity of the KKK, enabling acts such as Tulsa, denial of generational wealth. The US government owes more than it can ever pay, & a lot of White people need to quit trying to make this all about them, personally.


---

asdf8562 posted...

The disconnect you are having is assuming those are supported as well.

Not supporting this doesn't mean you support whatever reparations of the past. Simply put, not everyone is fond of the idea of being punished for something their dead ancestors from 100 years ago did. Then being told "it's not punishment" when it's coming out of their taxes. With the added cherry on top that they are struggling to get by as well.

So you are wholly against Americans getting restitution from government for being victimized?

Do you just generally view taxes as people being punished for someone else's failures?

You'd be demanding money if the government fucked over your family. And the government's money comes from us since the government should be but a servant of the people.

---

asdf8562 posted...

We all don't unilaterally think reparations is the best way to address systemic racism.

Should we stop compensating the families of murder victims if it doesn't actually lead to the end of murder?

---

Why does Hercules dislike Black people?

:(

_HayleyWilliams posted...

Do you just generally view taxes as people being punished for someone else's failures?

You'd be demanding money if the government f***ed over your family. And the government's money comes from us since the government should be but a servant of the people.

No I would not if we are staying in context to something from 100+ years ago. Like I said before, my family, and myself is also black.

_HayleyWilliams posted...

Should we stop compensating the families of murder victims if it doesn't actually lead to the end of murder?

Do I support taxes being raised for murder victims from 100+ years ago going to the family? No.

I wasn't being cryptic in what I said. I do not support the ideology or philosophy of "sins of the father" in any way shape or form.

asdf8562 posted...

No I would not if we are staying in context to something from 100+ years ago. Like I said before, my family, and myself is also black.

Do I support taxes being raised for murder victims from 100+ years ago going to the family? No.

I wasn't being cryptic in what I said. I do not support the ideology or philosophy of "sins of the father" in any way shape or form.

Is it really punishment if it's just taking the entire country's tax money and allocating some of it to compensate the families of victims?

Justice has no statute of limitations and it is ignorant to believe what's done to someone's ancestors can't negatively affect their family for generations. Just because the government oppressed black people until after all the original slaves died doesn't mean America doesn't have to pay for its crimes. If I was murdered tomorrow, my family better get some money in 150 years if somehow it's solved then.

Get back to me if these reparations happen AND they specifically fine white people or the descendants of slave owners to foot the bill. That would be a "sins of the father" situation. This is just the government paying its due.

---

_HayleyWilliams posted...

Is it really punishment if it's just taking the entire country's tax money and allocating some of it to compensate the families of victims?

Justice has no statute of limitations and it is ignorant to believe what's done to someone's ancestors can't negatively affect their family for generations. Just because the government oppressed black people until after all the original slaves died doesn't mean America doesn't have to pay for its crimes. If I was murdered tomorrow, my family better get some money in 150 years if somehow it's solved then.

Get back to me if these reparations happen AND they specifically fine white people or the descendants of slave owners to foot the bill. That would be a "sins of the father" situation. This is just the government paying its due.

If those tax dollars is only going to one specific race, while other races are struggling also at the same time, but no financial assistance is going to them, then yes it's a punishment.

People try to tap dance around this, but what it ultimately breaks down to for the average voter and citizen is just that.

asdf8562 posted...

If those tax dollars is only going to one specific race, while other races are struggling also at the same time, but no financial assistance is going to them, then yes it's a punishment.

People try to tap dance around this, but what it ultimately breaks down to for the average voter and citizen is just that.

It's not a punishment if other groups literally got land and wealth for free in the past.

---

ZMythos posted...

It's not a punishment if other groups literally got land and wealth for free in the past.

Saying something happened in the past doesn't magically change anything lol.

"Oh well it happened in the past before" does not under any circumstances make something okay.

It's still a punishment no matter how you try to dress it up and make it smell like roses.

asdf8562 posted...

Saying something happened in the past doesn't magically change anything lol.

"Oh well it happened in the past before" does not under any circumstances make something okay.

You're not addressing my argument at all. Giving black people some wealth to make up for a past disparity that, according to your definition, was a punishment for them would not be punishing the people originally benefitting from that disparity.


---

asdf8562 posted...

Saying something happened in the past doesn't magically change anything lol.

"Oh well it happened in the past before" does not under any circumstances make something okay.

It's still a punishment no matter how you try to dress it up and make it smell like roses.

Since when is restitution when doled out by the government a punishment?


---

ZMythos posted...

You're not addressing my argument at all. Giving black people some wealth to make up for a past disparity that, according to your definition, was a punishment for them would not be punishing the people originally benefitting from that disparity.

It was addressed. What you said was not remotely "according to my definition."

I wasn't being cryptic in what I said. I do not support the ideology or philosophy of "sins of the father" in any way shape or form for descendants generations down.

I do not care about sins of something over 100 years ago that makes innocent individuals 100 years later pay for restitution through their tax dollars to the descendants.

No I do not believe justice should always be paid no matter how much time has passed that future descendants must bare. While what has happened to my ancestors was an terrible, no I don't support restitution from people who did nothing to me or my family. While pretending it's not punishing them for things they never did, while they (friends and acquaintances of other races) are also going through many of the same struggles I am, a black person.

asdf8562 posted...

It was addressed. What you said was not remotely "according to my definition."

I wasn't being cryptic in what I said. I do not support the ideology or philosophy of "sins of the father" in any way shape or form for descendants generations down.

I do not care about sins of something over 100 years ago that makes innocent individuals 100 years later pay for restitution through their tax dollars to the descendants.

100 years is not a very long time, and there are people living to this day whose lives were directly affected by those policies.

That's besides the point. What I said was absolutely according to your definition.

asdf8562 posted...

If those tax dollars is only going to one specific race, while other races are struggling also at the same time, but no financial assistance is going to them, then yes it's a punishment.

By your literal definition, white people getting 40 acres and a mule was a punishment to black people.

---

asdf8562 posted...

It was addressed. What you said was not remotely "according to my definition."

I wasn't being cryptic in what I said. I do not support the ideology or philosophy of "sins of the father" in any way shape or form for descendants generations down.

I do not care about sins of something over 100 years ago that makes innocent individuals 100 years later pay for restitution through their tax dollars to the descendants.

No I do not believe justice should always be paid no matter how much time has passed that future descendants must bare. While what has happened to my ancestors was an terrible, no I don't support restitution from people who did nothing to me or my family. While pretending it's not punishing them for things they never did, while they (friends and acquaintances of other races) are also going through many of the same struggles I am, a black person.

So if a cop busts you upside the head and seriously injures you, you wouldn't want restitution? That money is coming at the expense of tax payers.

---

ZMythos posted...

That's besides the point. What I said was absolutely according to your definition.

It literally was not lol.

ZMythos posted...

By your literal definition, white people getting 40 acres and a mule was a punishment to black people.

do not support the ideology or philosophy of "sins of the father" in any way shape or form for descendants generations down.

I do not care about sins of something over 100 years ago that makes innocent individuals 100 years later pay for restitution through their tax dollars to the descendants.

No I do not believe justice should always be paid no matter how much time has passed that great great+ future descendants must bare.

You did not address my "definition." Your example is bringing up some scenario about white people long dead. On top of the assumption that all white people had slaves. On top of the assumption that all white people are swimming in wealth today.

Nothing you said actually fit my criteria at all the moment you turned towards theoretical dead white people who theoretically had slaves who theoretically are swimming in wealth and glory today.

Holy shit those goalposts are outside of the stadium now.


---

ZMythos posted...

Holy shit those goalposts are outside of the stadium now.

You would know since you would be the one who is twisting into a pretzel to change my post lol.

I have repeated the same thing over and over every post. Literally. I have said over and over now I don't support "sins of the father" by making generations down descendants pay for crimes of their generations ago ancestors.

asdf8562 posted...

It was addressed. What you said was not remotely "according to my definition."

I wasn't being cryptic in what I said. I do not support the ideology or philosophy of "sins of the father" in any way shape or form for descendants generations down.

I do not care about sins of something over 100 years ago that makes innocent individuals 100 years later pay for restitution through their tax dollars to the descendants.

No I do not believe justice should always be paid no matter how much time has passed that future descendants must bare. While what has happened to my ancestors was an terrible, no I don't support restitution from people who did nothing to me or my family. While pretending it's not punishing them for things they never did, while they (friends and acquaintances of other races) are also going through many of the same struggles I am, a black person.

Those things were not some "super long time ago, in the mystical before times" events. I know a lot of people feel like the Civil Rights movement was a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure most of us have parents old enough to remember things like integration & the marches in Alabama as the government sicced dogs & loosened fire hoses on the protests there. I'm sure a few here still have grandparents who can give you a first hand recount of the times. We have Bernie Sanders, a politician who was literally right there for MLK, & he's still alive. The Civil Rights movement is still within living memory. The US has compensated for almost every group it wronged, so why is it always so complicated for Blacks?

---

darkbuster posted...

Those things were not some "super long time ago, in the mystical before times" events. I know a lot of people feel like the Civil Rights movement was a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure most of us have parents old enough to remember things like integration & the marches in Alabama as the government sicced dogs & loosened fire hoses on the protests there. I'm sure a few here still have grandparents who can give you a first hand recount of the times. We have Bernie Sanders, a politician who was literally right there for MLK, & he's still alive. The Civil Rights movement is still within living memory. The US has compensated for almost every group it wronged, so why is it always so complicated for Blacks?

Ruby Bridges, the first person to integrate American schools is only two years older than my mother. Both of my parents were the among the first to integrate their middle schools and faced white mobs of parents and students and literally had to fight their way into school every day for a year, this was late the 60s early 70s. They grew up under Jim Crow segregation, if you were black and was on the white side of town you had better be tending to somebody's lawn or doing housekeeping service, this persisted well into the 70s. The notion that this is all ancient history of yesteryear is just odd.

---

Deuceswild posted...

It's ridiculous ideas like this that keep Republicans in office.

Pretty sure it's the smooth brains voting for them keeping them in power m8

---

Taharqa_ posted...

The notion that this is all ancient history of yesteryear is just odd.

It's not that hard to see why that mindset took hold. The rise of hip-hop culture in the 90, combined with popular black personalities such as Bill Cosby, Will Smith, & Michael Jordan make the fountains, marches, & lynchings feel jarring.

---

asdf8562 posted...

You would know since you would be the one who is twisting into a pretzel to change my post lol.

I have repeated the same thing over and over every post. Literally. I have said over and over now I don't support "sins of the father" by making generations down descendants pay for crimes of their generations ago ancestors.

So it's okay for tax money to make up for someone else's sins as long as X amount of time has not passed? What is the exact cutoff?

---

asdf8562 posted...

If those tax dollars is only going to one specific race, while other races are struggling also at the same time, but no financial assistance is going to them, then yes it's a punishment.

People try to tap dance around this, but what it ultimately breaks down to for the average voter and citizen is just that.

Is it fair to punish taxpayers who have never murdered anyone by taking their tax money to compensate victims' families? Isn't that unjust by your own definition? Would you say it's certain groups getting special treatment?

---

darkbuster posted...

It's not that hard to see why that mindset took hold. The rise of hip-hop culture in the 90, combined with popular black personalities such as Bill Cosby, Will Smith, & Michael Jordan make the fountains, marches, & lynchings feel jarring.

As an older millennial, I'm literally part of the first generation of black Americans born with full rights protected by the Federal government on paper. You could make a case for Gen X, but they started in 1965 and there was still legislation to be passed. It may be cognitive dissonance or people really just don't know the history.

---

_HayleyWilliams posted...

Is it fair to punish taxpayers who have never murdered anyone by taking their tax money to compensate victims' families? Isn't that unjust by your own definition? Would you say it's certain groups getting special treatment?

Broken record at this point, read my old post.

That isn't my "definition." All across the map your example is twisting into a pretzel to fit a narrative my post is very specific about.

I hope no Democrats are campaigning on this.

KobeSystem posted...

Pretty sure it's the smooth brains voting for them keeping them in power m8

that and gerrymandering/voter suppression


---

Zikten posted...

Reminder that Xena was a better show

Zikten posted...

Reminder that Xena was a better show

and lucy is still a highly sought after actress while kevin does pureflix movies

---