Current Events > Trans swimmer breaking NCAA records, destroying the competition in meets

(+) Yeah! (+)

Dragooncancer_ posted...

Can you share some examples of FTM athletes who are breaking records similar to ways multiple MTF athletes have?

Ooh, savage

She won by 38 seconds.

That's not simply winning, It's curb-stomping the competition. That's not anything near being close.

I can't blame people for going "Wait a minute...."

averagejoel posted...

just as soon as you provide some data which shows that trans women are actually over-represented in sports victories

Oh ok, so you can't give any examples of FTM athletes breaking sport records.

Serena Williams is the greatest female tennis player of all time, and she wouldnt even crack the top 500 rankings of mens tennis players. She even agrees in interviews that mens tennis is a completely different sport.

There is a reason why men and women are in different leagues.

Ysmir posted...

Do you have nothing better to do with your live than cry about black or trans people on a dead video game forum

lol does he?

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

Serena Williams is the greatest female tennis player of all time, and she wouldnt even crack the top 500 rankings of mens tennis players. She even agrees in interviews that mens tennis is a completely different sport.

There is a reason why men and women are in different leagues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis)#1998:_Karsten_Braasch_vs._the_Williams_sisters

1998: Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters
Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open[57] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager".[58][57] The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,[59] after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies. He first took on Serena and after leading 50, beat her 61. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 62.[57] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun"[60] and that the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier and put spin on the ball that female players could not handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.[57]

Acting like there are no performance differences based on biology is to imply the Williams sisters are lazy or something. They aren't lazy though, they are dedicated and talented, they just don't have the biological advantage that being male gives you.

That guy sounds like a bit of a dick, but if the 203rd man can phone it in and easily beat the best women in the world, it says something.

winning the 200 by less than 7 seconds? A seven second lead in a 200 race is a massive massive lead.

Aelia posted...

winning the 200 by less than 7 seconds? A seven second lead in a 200 race is a massive massive lead.

This. Usain Bolt doesn't even beat his competition by anywhere even near a second in a 100m race.

If you ran a 12 second 100m dash you aren't even good by high school levels.

You are like varsity athlete in every HS level.

Kakapo posted...

There are different skeletal structures and all that among men, too.

Im 58. Im never going to swim as well as Michael Phelps, even if I trained every waking moment. Hes got an advantage

Should we have separate sporting events for people of different heights or body types?

Of course, the plus side of this would be football events where each side is basically Danny DeVito.

I mean, in stuff like wrestling and weight lifting we do have weight classes. That is a separation of body types.

There's also professional teams and amateur teams with varying competitive levels and leagues for each.

For kids we do separate divisions by age as well as different divisions for different skill levels.

So yeah it isn't a new thing to discuss various other ways athletes can be divided into separate categories to ensure a more competitive playing level.

For certain sports like weight lifting where there is a very long list of categories to compete under it seems reasonable to also have a trans female and/or trans male division.

For team sports that can be difficult as trans persons are already a small group and they aren't all playing sports or necessarily athletically inclined. The numbers just don't seem to add up to make trans teams or leagues feasible.

I would also argue that trans athletes wouldn't have nearly as big of an advantage in team sports as they would in individual sports based like weight lifting, sprinting, and swimming where pure strength and speed is especially advantageous.

Team sports require well team work lol. A lot of performance is based in decision making skills which isn't at all based in any sort of gender identity. There are just a lot more factors to determine the level of success an individual in a team sport may experience beyond pure strength and speed.

Also, I would watch a Danny Devito body type football league

Aelia posted...

winning the 200 by less than 7 seconds? A seven second lead in a 200 race is a massive massive lead.

Yeah a 26 second 200m is like you went into the race with no training

South Park predicted the future again I see. Though it probably started before that episode.

Having a specific gender identity and having a body to match it are two different things. I don't get why people downplay that. But I don't know what the solution is either.

Yes, sometimes cis women beat trans women in sports. But that tends not to happen if the trans woman was already competing at the higher levels of male sports before they transitioned. It's a genuine mismatch in that case.

joe40001 posted...

Exactly this. And considering how seriously I take board games, I'd guess some people take it even less seriously than that.

People don't realize how sports relates to self-esteem, hope, discipline, and strength for countless people. But that only happens when it's fair. So we must ensure fairness is achieved as much as possible.

Well then I guess trans women need to be completely banned from sports since their self-esteem and hope would be crushed playing against men? Do their feelings not get to matter?

And I absolutely do not have a contempt for sports. I'm likely one of the biggest sports nerds on this entire board.

Kakapo posted...

Of course, the plus side of this would be football events where each side is basically Danny DeVito.

DeVito Hockey could be something great. DeVito sledge hockey could be something awesome.

hockeybub89 posted...

Well then I guess trans women need to be completely banned from sports since their self-esteem and hope would be crushed playing against men? Do their feelings not get to matter?

And I absolutely do not have a contempt for sports. I'm likely one of the biggest sports nerds on this entire board.

The thing you're not realizing is that many of us don't want trans women banned from competing with women. We acknowledge that there is a problem and we aren't sure of what the solution is. In an ideal world everyone would have an appropriate distinction for a fair and level playing field, but part of having a field of players is just a numbers game. There are logistical issues to having trans only divisions in many athletic competitions mostly team sports.

No one who loves sports wants to exclude anyone like that. It's a balancing act between wanting a fair competition and not wanting to exclude anyone. I say just let trans women compete in women's divisions and let the experiment play out with the mindset that I'd rather be wrong being inclusive than wrong being exclusive.

There certainly are some notable anecdotes of trans females who perform well above the field. I haven't seen anything like broad range statistics or anything like that and I haven't seen anyone provide any. It seems fair to assert that anecdotal evidence may be the best we got and we need to do the best we can with that meanwhile accumulating more data to make a more informed decision.

It just seems really silly to not acknowledge that trans women may have significant athletic advantages on average over cis women. Hormone therapy and its effects, while very significant, simply do not account for every factor to aid a trans person in living as their gender. It seems reasonable to say identifying trans persons while they're very young and giving them puberty blockers could be a significant aid in remedying this issue.

It seems reasonable to state that if puberty blockers can help trans persons better realize living as their gender then living without it may carry lasting effects from having gone through puberty as the other gender.

TommyG663513 posted...

The thing you're not realizing is that many of us don't want trans women banned from competing with women. We acknowledge that there is a problem and we aren't sure of what the solution is. In an ideal world everyone would have an appropriate distinction for a fair and level playing field, but part of having a field of players is just a numbers game. There are logistical issues to having trans only divisions in many athletic competitions mostly team sports.

No one who loves sports wants to exclude anyone like that. It's a balancing act between wanting a fair competition and not wanting to exclude anyone. I say just let trans women compete in women's divisions and let the experiment play out with the mindset that I'd rather be wrong being inclusive than wrong being exclusive.

There certainly are some notable anecdotes of trans females who perform well above the field. I haven't seen anything like broad range statistics or anything like that and I haven't seen anyone provide any. It seems fair to assert that anecdotal evidence may be the best we got and we need to do the best we can with that meanwhile accumulating more data to make a more informed decision.

It just seems really silly to not acknowledge that trans women may have significant athletic advantages on average over cis women. Hormone therapy and its effects, while very significant, simply do not account for every factor to aid a trans person in living as their gender. It seems reasonable to say identifying trans persons while they're very young and giving them puberty blockers could be a significant aid in remedying this issue.

It seems reasonable to state that if puberty blockers can help trans persons better realize living as their gender then living without it may carry lasting effects from having gone through puberty as the other gender.

Yep, well said.

CyricZ posted...

That's a decision for women to make, not men.

Women as in...? Are you referring to sex or gender? Because sex-women already have chosen, for anyone that isn't ignorant and listens to the women in their life. I mean geez this doesn't even affect me, and I've heard their cries loud and clear. I am a sex-man therefore I do not contribute my opinion to this. The sex-women at my college expressed concern for competing against trans women, many of them were upset having to eventually face this issue. They feel they are being cheated and that it's not fair for them.

When Caster Semenya won 2 Olympic golds, some of her competitors in their very race had protested her saying this was wrong.

In CT, sex-women sued the state because one of the girls was supposed to win the state title, instead she got beaten by a trans athlete for the title, and she was upset because she worked her entire life for this and felt cheated. If i recall correctly that was the story.. Maybe now she doesn't get to go to her dream school, etc. Here is the link:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/us/transgender-athletes-connecticut-lawsuit/index.html

Here is a different article talking of how a team with multiple trans-women won the team state title:

https://www.athleticbusiness.com/operations/legal/article/15156762/transgender-girls-win-state-track-championships

The consensus seems to show that sex-women are not happy about this. If you have literally asked any sex woman on her opinion, the overwhelmingly strong opinion is hard to miss. You have to be ignorant to ignore the sex-women's cries.

CyricZ to me comes off as a bigot who solely defends Trans-Athletes with zero consideration for the feelings of sex-Women. And that is really fucked up. When you start to bias any side in anything, you start to lose morality. And this guy seems like he doesn't give a fuck about sex-women because he seems to constantly defend trans-women; to the point where It actually forced me to go online and quickly gather a few articles to show him that sex-women still exist. And they still have an opinion. And their opinion fucking matters even though you've forgotten about it, CyricZ. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy lives in the USA. That is usually how their politics works. 2 big teams, and you only give a shit about what your team believes, and fuck the other teams opinion or feelings or even consideration. I haven't seen him write one thing about sex-women this entire topic and he's posted many times; showing your favoritism.

Remember Cyric is obsessed with a certain CEgal who doesn't post here

Rayman2943 posted...

Remember Cyric is obsessed with a certain CEgal who doesn't post here

I don't give a damn who he's obsessed with. I don't know him like that nor do I care about his romantic aspirations. If any user wants to be ignorant and ignore an entire group of people, I'm going to call them out on it. He already made a 1st strike by "having an opinion" on women's sports when he's a man. I've already explained that men have no say because we're not the ones having to compete against trans-women. Then strike 2, he shows favoritism towards one side, on an issue in which he has no right to be commenting on in the first place because it doesn't affect him. I'm so tired of people like this, they run the political world.

TommyG663513 posted...

We acknowledge that there is a problem and we aren't sure of what the solution is

Man I can't believe I'm getting sucked into this reading all these posts. But the solution will be implemented if enough people disagree with the current status. Things will either remain as they are; or if millions of sex-women say they feel cheated, then they'll amend the law of competitions. We will no longer separate sport by gender, instead it will be separated by sex. Thats obvious to me at least. Because when the 2 divisions are separated by sex, it doesn't matter what your gender is or what you identify as. That is only if enough sex-women come forward and it gets to that point. However even though most sex women say they feel cheated by it, I don't really see many of them marching a street down for it. So I don't know how strongly they feel, but time will tell us. It's their life.

Kakapo posted...

There are different skeletal structures and all that among men, too.

Im 58. Im never going to swim as well as Michael Phelps, even if I trained every waking moment. Hes got an advantage

Should we have separate sporting events for people of different heights or body types?

Of course, the plus side of this would be football events where each side is basically Danny DeVito.

Is "short persons swimming" a protected class? Should it be?

Essentially what you're arguing for here is doing away with men/womens sport divisions which also would mean eradicating women from elite sport altogether. Doesn't sound like progress to me.

Smackems posted...

So are y'all getting anywhere this time as opposed to the other 50000 times this topic has been made and people argued in it

Well when people cherry pick your message and ignore the other factual things...

CyricZ posted...

You could have stopped right there.

zinezinzadan posted...

Women as in...? Are you referring to sex or gender? Because sex-women already have chosen, for anyone that isn't ignorant and listens to the women in their life. I mean geez this doesn't even affect me, and I've heard their cries loud and clear. I am a sex-man therefore I do not contribute my opinion to this. The sex-women at my college expressed concern for competing against trans women, many of them were upset having to eventually face this issue. They feel they are being cheated and that it's not fair for them.

When Caster Semenya won 2 Olympic golds, some of her competitors in their very race had protested her saying this was wrong.

In CT, sex-women sued the state because one of the girls was supposed to win the state title, instead she got beaten by a trans athlete for the title, and she was upset because she worked her entire life for this and felt cheated. If i recall correctly that was the story.. Maybe now she doesn't get to go to her dream school, etc. Here is the link:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/us/transgender-athletes-connecticut-lawsuit/index.html

Here is a different article talking of how a team with multiple trans-women won the team state title:

https://www.athleticbusiness.com/operations/legal/article/15156762/transgender-girls-win-state-track-championships

The consensus seems to show that sex-women are not happy about this. If you have literally asked any sex woman on her opinion, the overwhelmingly strong opinion is hard to miss. You have to be ignorant to ignore the sex-women's cries.

CyricZ to me comes off as a bigot who solely defends Trans-Athletes with zero consideration for the feelings of sex-Women. And that is really fucked up. When you start to bias any side in anything, you start to lose morality. And this guy seems like he doesn't give a fuck about sex-women because he seems to constantly defend trans-women; to the point where It actually forced me to go online and quickly gather a few articles to show him that sex-women still exist. And they still have an opinion. And their opinion fucking matters even though you've forgotten about it, CyricZ. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy lives in the USA. That is usually how their politics works. 2 big teams, and you only give a shit about what your team believes, and fuck the other teams opinion or feelings or even consideration. I haven't seen him write one thing about sex-women this entire topic and he's posted many times; showing your favoritism.

Just gonna correct you here, Caster Semenya isn't trans. She has a DSD, I.e. intersex. Totally different issue but with some of the same qualities.

Kakapo posted...

There are different skeletal structures and all that among men, too.

Im 58. Im never going to swim as well as Michael Phelps, even if I trained every waking moment. Hes got an advantage

Should we have separate sporting events for people of different heights or body types?

Of course, the plus side of this would be football events where each side is basically Danny DeVito.

Again with people trying to compare non-professionals to professionals

Why do people think this is a legitmate argument? Its not.

Just because you are a man doesnt mean by default you could beat any professional female

Kakapo posted...

Should we have separate sporting events for people of different heights or body types?

We do in combat sports

Though when ever this topic comes up, I wonder how trans men atheletes are doing because by all accounts they should have the reverse problem, an overwhelmingly difficult time competing within their sports.

dioxxys posted...

Though when ever this topic comes up, I wonder how trans men atheletes are doing because by all accounts they should have the reverse problem, an overwhelmingly difficult time competing within their sports.

There are a few:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports

Go to notable athletes

But not many since as you say, they really struggle to compete against biological males , even with hormone therapy

In general they just don't get picked for team sports and don't qualify for solo sports

hockeybub89 posted...

And I absolutely do not have a contempt for sports. I'm likely one of the biggest sports nerds on this entire board.

I appreciate that. I just think a lot of people do, and too easily dismiss how important it is to competitors. The "sportsball" crowd, basically.

Wow a new fan. I'd considered a response, but then I saw post #59 and I figured someone who freely calls an entire board Nazis isn't really worth the time to debate.

Also I don't know if "sex-women" is a regional thing, but I'd need confirmation on that.

Dragooncancer_ posted...

Oh ok, so you can't give any examples of FTM athletes breaking sport records.

individual examples are not relevant. data is.

averagejoel posted...

individual examples are not relevant. data is.

How many ways do you think you can come up with to pretend you didnt say something that is just flat out bullshit? You cant post any data that shows transmen breaking male sporting records either.

Yeah pretty much everyone on the "there is absolutely nothing wrong with trans females shattering cis women's athletic records" engages in non stop bad faith

I'm not even saying we should ban them from competing with cis females, but it is incredibly ridiculous to not acknowledge that an advantage exists. There's all sorts of options for how to handle this, but you can't just deny reality here.

"sex-women"
Can't even argue without making up terms when cis and trans prefixes already exist

IamtheViking posted...

Yeah pretty much everyone on the "there is absolutely nothing wrong with trans females shattering cis women's athletic records" engages in non stop bad faith

I'm not even saying we should ban them from competing with cis females, but it is incredibly ridiculous to not acknowledge that an advantage exists. There's all sorts of options for how to handle this, but you can't just deny reality here.

I'm inclined to agree

Also include "A trans athlete didn't win or break a record in an event she competed in so therefore there's no problem " is bad faith arguing too

these topics are always quite entertaining to parse through on ce

Tenlaar posted...

How many ways do you think you can come up with to pretend you didnt say something that is just flat out bullshit? You cant post any data that shows transmen breaking male sporting records either.

until someone posts actual data to the contrary, there is no legitimate reason to believe there's any significant difference

gunplagirl posted...

"sex-women"
Can't even argue without making up terms when cis and trans prefixes already exist

All of these terms are made up.

We use what we use because this is a time of ambiguity and wariness, where we cant all agree on anything concrete and not using socially approved words can easily lead to being silenced.

CyricZ posted...

Wow a new fan. I'd considered a response, but then I saw post #59 and I figured someone who freely calls an entire board Nazis isn't really worth the time to debate.

Also I don't know if "sex-women" is a regional thing, but I'd need confirmation on that.

You have a good relationship with this website, and you used that power to nefariously mod my post. The type of human being you are is very evident, you are not a good person. More so, you hate cis-sex-women by denying their opinion. That makes you an even worse person.

The guy denies responding to me because he knows he finally got called out by someone thats going to put up a valiant fight, and then he uses his patronage to try and silence me.

All of you just learned a valuable lesson on corruption and abuse of power. How scummy. If that guy was a millionaire hed be evading taxes. If he was a president hed be involved in some serious controversy. Whenever bad people gain power, in their nature they do something wrong with it.

Oh also Cyric, since youre illiterate. I called an individual as having a single Nazzi-similar quality. To say that I called an entire group of people Nazzis, is factually incorrect, and literally illiterate on your part. Maybe your friends on the mod team will do you a favor and keep my post down, but I have disputed it.

My post hasnt had any problems for 2 full days now? Only when your nefarious paws clicked it, something was done. It wasnt against the TOS, you abused your power. Scummy.

If only.

hockeybub89 posted...

This is why we need to start recognizing the validity of trans people's existence and get them on puberty blockers growing up so they do not go through the wrong puberty if they are truly trans.

You want to push for fairness? Support transition and the biggest advantages will go away.

I do support Trans people. Trans women are women. I respect peoples preferred pronouns.

At the same time I think there is a discussion to be had about the physical differences between women who go through puberty as a male vs those who go through puberty as female. Thats just science/anatomy/biology.

CyricZ posted...

If only.

I expected that response. Have a good day, son.

SSJPurple posted...

At the same time I think there is a discussion to be had about the physical differences between women who go through puberty as a male vs those who go through puberty as female.

That discussion is constantly being had, by people with more data and knowledge on the subject than any of us.

I'm going to defer to them for the science (rather than CE folk who "just know") and stick to my ideals and values with regards to participation.

averagejoel posted...

until someone posts actual data to the contrary, there is no legitimate reason to believe there's any significant difference

You made an affirmative claim, bucko. Just acknowledge that what you said was bullshit that you cant back up in any way already.

Lorenzo_2003 posted...

All of these terms are made up.

We use what we use because this is a time of ambiguity and wariness, where we cant all agree on anything concrete and not using socially approved words can easily lead to being silenced.

You're not actually saying anything. Yeah you can call it an 'emergency induction port' but everyone else calls it a straw so you're just making things more complicated for no reason.

I mean yes, all terms are made up, but I was wondering if "sex-women" was something regional or if that person just came up with it.

I was accused of being American so it's possible they're not.

CyricZ posted...

I mean yes, all terms are made up, but I was wondering if "sex-women" was something regional or if that person just came up with it.

I was accused of being American so it's possible they're not.

They made it up

IamtheViking posted...

Yeah pretty much everyone on the "there is absolutely nothing wrong with trans females shattering cis women's athletic records" engages in non stop bad faith

I'm not even saying we should ban them from competing with cis females, but it is incredibly ridiculous to not acknowledge that an advantage exists. There's all sorts of options for how to handle this, but you can't just deny reality here.

There should be a thorough physical evaluation of them and they should be automatically set with a handicap based on bone density, speed, strength, testosterone level etc.

This recent swimmer woman for example, she should have a massive penalty deducted from all results.

Social commentaries make for such convenient distractions. Maybe switch off the talking heads on TV and look outside your window once in a while. The situation of us humans on this planet is a lot more dire than any implication that might come from allowing transwomen in sports.

Oh_Boy_ posted...

There should be a thorough physical evaluation of them and they should be automatically set with a handicap based on bone density, speed, strength, testosterone level etc.

This recent swimmer woman for example, she should have a massive penalty deducted from all results.

People of Afro-heritage have denser bones than Caucasians.

Testosterone is already a thing trans women are tested on, since it's a type of performance enhancing drug. In fact, after a few years most trans women have less testosterone than cis women. Especially if they've had their testicles removed at some point.

Basically you're saying that our achievements don't matter and that if we do well it doesn't count.

By that same logic, there's a disparity in the number of African Americans in the NBA. Should we take similar measures so other races can compete fairly? Of course not, that would be nonsensical and the discrimination it would lead to enforcing would only hurt people of color.