Current Events > Boeing and Airbus urge a delay in 5G wireless service over safety concerns

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/21/1066240779/boeing-airbus-5g-wireless-delay-aircraft-safety-concerns

The heads of the two largest commercial jet makers, Boeing and Airbus, are warning against a plan to deploy new 5G wireless networks starting next month, saying interference from the upgrade could pose a danger to vital aircraft systems.

In a statement emailed to NPR, Boeing said the aerospace industry was "focused on fully evaluating and addressing the potential for 5G interference with radio altimeters."

"We are collaborating with aviation authorities, government leaders, airlines, and industry groups to ensure the continued operational safety of aircraft throughout the aviation system worldwide," it said.
According to Reuters, Boeing Chief Executive Dave Calhoun and Airbus Americas CEO Jeffrey Knittel have called for postponing a planned Jan. 5 rollout of the new technology by AT&T and Verizon Communications.

"5G interference could adversely affect the ability of aircraft to safely operate," the executives wrote in a letter to Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, adding that this could have "an enormous negative impact on the aviation industry."

The companies have expressed concern that 5G, which operates on a frequency close to that used by aircraft systems such as radio altimeters, could cause interference. They've warned of possible flight delays in snowstorms and low visibility if 5G is deployed.

Last year, the Radio Technical Commission for Aeronautics, or RTCA, a nonprofit that studies aircraft electronic systems, issued a report concluding that interference from 5G was a legitimate concern and potential safety hazard.

And earlier this month, the Federal Aviation Administration issued airworthiness directives echoing those concerns.

"[R]adio altimeters cannot be relied upon to perform their intended function if they experience interference from wireless broadband operations," the FAA said, adding it would require "limitations prohibiting certain operations requiring radio altimeter data when in the presence of 5G C-Band interference" for both fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters.

Airlines are also worried. Southwest CEO Gary Kelly told a Senate hearing last week that the industry's top near-term concern "is the deployment of 5G."

In November, AT&T and Verizon delayed the launch of C-Band wireless service by a month, and in an effort to break the stalemate, they also reportedly offered to limit power levels emanating from 5G towers for six months to give regulators a chance to assess whether the new technology would cause problems for aircraft.

Airplane internals are all shielded to the point where you need a nuke level emp to get them to stop working

How many plane crashes has Europe and Asia had due to 5G? 0? ok

Tyranthraxus posted...

Airplane internals are all shielded to the point where you need a nuke level emp to get them to stop working

This is in relevance to radio altimeters, which are essentially radar pointed straight down.
It sends a signal down and counts how long it takes to bounce back, which becomes useless if some phone tower is blasting out the same frequency.

Another shit America propaganda.

South Korea have been using 5g since 2019 no problems.

It shows America infrastructure is old and behind every modern country that have modern infrastructure.

It gives the airplanes cancer

I don't really know enough about airplanes to make any comment on this but I do know there is significant worry about 5G interference with weather forecasting satellites so it's not totally unbelievable

I thought they worked at entirely different frequencies with no interference, given all the countries with 5g haven't had these companies have any problems yet.

This is not the same thing as conspiracist nutters believing 5G is going to turn you into a crocodile or whatever. It is very reasonable to think that one technology that uses radio waves of a certain frequency might interfere with another that also uses radio waves of a similar frequency - and it will also be possible for them to find a solution, they just need to put that time in to actually do so.

Asus-Sony posted...

Another shit America propaganda.

South Korea have been using 5g since 2019 no problems.

It shows America infrastructure is old and behind every modern country that have modern infrastructure.

Airbus is a European company

Trumble posted...

This is not the same thing as conspiracist nutters believing 5G is going to turn you into a crocodile or whatever. It is very reasonable to think that one technology that uses radio waves of a certain frequency might interfere with another that also uses radio waves of a similar frequency - and it will also be possible for them to find a solution, they just need to put that time in to actually do so.

It's not really reasonable because each type of device operates on reserved frequencies. Let's break this down:

Radio altimeter frequency: 4.2 - 4.4 GHz
AT&T 5G Frequencies: 80 MHz, 850MHz, 39GHz
Verizon 5G Frequencies: 28 Ghz, 39Ghz
T-Mobile 5G Frequencies: 850 MHz, 1.7 - 2.1GHz
2.4GHz wifi: 2.400 to 2.4835 GHz
5GHz wifi: 5.035 - 5.990 GHz

With 2.4GHz wifi in the US, there are 3 "clean channels," 1, 6, and 11.

• 1: 2.412 GHz
• 6: 2.437 GHz
• 11: 2.462 GHz

They're called "clean channels" because they do not interfere with each other. So if those 3 frequencies that are much closer to each other don't interfere with each other, there is no chance that the reserved 5G frequencies would collide with the reserved radio altimeter frequencies.

Funkydog posted...

I thought they worked at entirely different frequencies with no interference, given all the countries with 5g haven't had these companies have any problems yet.

This is correct. In the US, the FCC governs reserved frequencies for any device that sends out radio signals. This includes radio altimeters, 3G towers, 4G towers, 5G towers, 2.4GHz wifi, 5GHz wifi, microwaves, bluetooth, CB radios, etc.

TMo may be a problem, due to weird harmonic stuff.
Frequencies that are multiples of eachother, tend to mess with eachother.

"Folks we fucked up and we're comin in too fast. Brace for impact but enjoy your 4k porn on Verizon 5g! "

Questionmarktarius posted...

TMo may be a problem, due to weird harmonic stuff.
Frequencies that are multiples of eachother, tend to mess with eachother.

Does that also apply to light waves? Good point, if so

you can check the report linked in the article, I guess. it's too technical for me to really summarize but I'm going to assume there's at least some research behind it (though it's also a bit old??) https://www.rtca.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/SC-239-5G-Interference-Assessment-Report_274-20-PMC-2073_accepted_changes.pdf

notably, it seems as they are more concerned with what frequencies the government has allowed for use than what frequencies companies have actually chosen to use.

The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) has recently taken action to reallocate a portion of the 3.74.2 GHz frequency band, making the frequency spectrum from 3.73.98 GHz available for flexible use including 5G applications. This spectrum will be auctioned to new licensees beginning in December 2020. The aviation industry noted in the FCC rulemaking process that deployment of 5G networks in this frequency band may introduce harmful radio frequency (RF) interference to radar altimeters currently operating in the globally-allocated 4.24.4 GHz aeronautical band.

Sounds like a Boeing problem. Not a problem for the rest of the country.

Johnny_Nutcase posted...

"Folks we fucked up and we're comin in too fast. Brace for impact but enjoy your 4k porn on Verizon 5g! "

"According to altimeter, we're already half a mile underground anyway"

kirbymuncher posted...

you can check the report linked in the article, I guess. it's too technical for me to really summarize but I'm going to assume there's at least some research behind it (though it's also a bit old??) https://www.rtca.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/SC-239-5G-Interference-Assessment-Report_274-20-PMC-2073_accepted_changes.pdf

notably, it seems as they are more concerned with what frequencies the government has allowed for use than what frequencies companies have actually chosen to use.

The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) has recently taken action to reallocate a portion of the 3.74.2 GHz frequency band, making the frequency spectrum from 3.73.98 GHz available for flexible use including 5G applications. This spectrum will be auctioned to new licensees beginning in December 2020. The aviation industry noted in the FCC rulemaking process that deployment of 5G networks in this frequency band may introduce harmful radio frequency (RF) interference to radar altimeters currently operating in the globally-allocated 4.24.4 GHz aeronautical band.

I doubt the frequencies centered in the 3.7-3.98 GHz range are going to be wide enough to come anywhere near 4.2 Ghz, though

CableZL posted...

I doubt the frequencies centered in the 3.7-3.98 GHz range are going to be wide enough to come anywhere near 4.2 Ghz, though

That's feasibly close enough to screw with systems leveraging the doppler effect.

We should inject the planes with vaccines so they'll be resistant to 5G.

Questionmarktarius posted...

That's feasibly close enough to screw with systems leveraging the doppler effect.

How so? Legitimately asking because I'm only familiar with these frequencies from a network engineering standpoint and I'm not familiar with the doppler effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect
A 3.98GHz signal could be confused for a 4.2GHz return-signal the plane is moving away from, maybe.

Questionmarktarius posted...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect
A 3.98GHz signal could be confused for a 4.2GHz signal the plane is moving away from, but it doesn't seem very likely.

Ah... but still, that's referring to sound waves, which aren't exactly the same as electromagnetic waves that would be coming from radio altimeters, 3G/4G/5G towers, wifi, microwaves, etc. Does the same concept apply?

CableZL posted...

Does the same concept apply?

Yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift

Questionmarktarius posted...

Yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift

Ah, interesting. Today, I learned. Thanks for the info

Sorry air industry. You're done. Sacrifices have to be made in order for the rest of us to watch porn on command.

On another note, congrats to the train and bus industries.

Jiek_Fafn posted...

On another note, congrats to the train and bus industries.

Amtrak wifi is terrible, tho.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift

Also, from what I'm reading so far, this document is referring to redshifts being detected between stars and within galaxies. Would a redshift it still be a legitimate concern in the scope of an airplane moving toward or away from a 5G tower with a relatively short distance of a number of miles?

CableZL posted...

Would a redshift it still be a legitimate concern in the scope of an airplane moving toward or away from a 5G tower within the scope of a number of miles?

Probably not, unless the altimeter is badly maintained - which is inevitably going to happen.
It'll be a decent episode of some "disaster" show, though.

Ask yourself whats the more likely culprit?

5G cell towers or the inert nanobot remnants used to manufacture covid vaccines? Seriously do the research.

divot1338 posted...

Ask yourself whats the more likely culprit?

5G cell towers or the inert nanobot remnants used to manufacture covid vaccines? Seriously do the research.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/8/4/AARLwzAACM0Q.jpg

Questionmarktarius posted...

TMo may be a problem, due to weird harmonic stuff.
Frequencies that are multiples of eachother, tend to mess with eachother.

Harmonics would be the only issue I could think of...but I can't imagine the harmonics being strong enough to impact planes once they're at a high distance. Since 5G doesn't have a wide range in the first place

This going to make conspiracies theory worst