Current Events > New Manhattan DA doubles down on soft-on-crime approach. Murder? 20 years

(+) Yeah! (+)

voldothegr8 posted...

Or maybe it was and shit is about to get a whole lot worse

Statistics from countries with less harsh sentences show the opposite.

hockeybub89 posted...

What's wrong with 20 years for murder? I'm sorry conservatives think prison is a vacation and that even petty thieves should be given life sentences.

Don't draw comparisons between petty thievery and murder. For fucks sake.

20 years for murder is insane. Life in prison, no parole. That is the only sane sentence. Politics have nothing to do with it.

20 years for killing someone.....I could take that charge actually. If anything it sounds like you should kill as many as possible for the 20.

Nice of Manhattan to open Pandora's box.

I swear to god Hockeybub is just an elaborate troll his opinions are so consistently a parody of what the left believes.

NeoShadowhen posted...

20 years for murder is insane

It is more than the average sentence for murder.

Rayman2943 posted...

I swear to god Hockeybub is just an elaborate troll his opinions are so consistently a parody of what the left believes.

Yeah, every now and again they forget to switch accounts and say something transphobic or something. It might be time.

The_true_king_ posted...

If anything it sounds like you should kill as many as possible for the 20.

Presumably each count would carry its own sentence.

Antifar posted...

It is more than the average sentence for murder.

Which is insane.

Dont get me wrong, I personally believe that most crimes shouldnt carry a prison sentence at all. But murder, there should be separate prisons for murderers.

NeoShadowhen posted...

Yeah, every now and again they forget to switch accounts and say something transphobic or something. It might be time.

Lol he does?

NeoShadowhen posted...

Don't draw comparisons between petty thievery and murder. For fucks sake.

20 years for murder is insane. Life in prison, no parole. That is the only sane sentence. Politics have nothing to do with it.

Why is it insane? Does a longer sentence unkill the victims? Is it eliminating murder from the world? The government should not do anything that it can't back up with facts.

Shouldn't we be the most crime-free paradise on Earth if our methods work?

Intro2Logic posted...

Those are your feelings; the facts are that countries with shorter prison sentences than ours also tend to have lower rates of recidivism. Per this review (https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/715100) of studies that have been done on the matter, "custodial sanctions have a null or criminogenic effect on reoffending when compared with noncustodial sanctions such as probation. Although a small number of factors moderate effect size estimates (e.g., research design, type of reoffending measure), we find no conditions under which custody reduces reoffending."

Should we base policies on the facts, or your feelings?

I think it would depend on what the crime is and how those studies were conducted. I agree that there are certain crimes that should carry a much less sentence, and maybe some of those crimes were included in the study.

I don't think giving people short sentences for things like rape, murder or armed robbery is a good approach. Those are things people are flat out just not supposed to be doing and should be kept away from society.

Houston posted...

I don't think giving people short sentences for things like rape, murder or armed robbery is a good approach.

Define short.

Antifar posted...

Define short.

Not life, apparently

Antifar posted...

Define short.

20 years is definitely short for murdering someone in cold blood. I'm not sure what the new sentences for armed robbery would be, but if it's now considered a misdemeanor, I don't see how it could be more than a few years, if that.

These are really serious crimes we're talking about.

Houston posted...

20 years is definitely short for murdering someone in cold blood.

It's longer than average.

uwnim posted...

20 years is a pretty fucking long time, tbh.

This. Like if the point is you need time behind bars then 20 years serves the purpose. Thats a long time.

If we want to sentence people to death just do it though. Theres no difference between life in prison and a lethal injection to me.

The_true_king_ posted...

20 years for killing someone.....I could take that charge actually. If anything it sounds like you should kill as many as possible for the 20.

Nice of Manhattan to open Pandora's box.

Youre aware charges would still stack right? Meaning two murders would be 40 years.

You can't make this shit up, people.

hockeybub89 posted...

Why is it insane?

Because its the worst thing one human being can do to another human being.

Does a longer sentence unkill the victims?

Does a shorter sentence unkill them? Derp.

Is it eliminating murder from the world?

No, but its eliminating a murderer. Good enough.

The government should not do anything that it can't back up with facts.

Are you arguing that there should be a trial, or that policy changes should have data backing them up?

Shouldn't we be the most crime-free paradise on Earth if our methods work?

Our methods do not work. This is a step in the wrong direction.

How long of a sentence do you think rapists should receive?

Vicious_Dios posted...

You can't make this shit up, people.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

MrDrMan posted...

Youre aware charges would still stack right? Meaning two murders would be 40 years.

In the case of murder, Bragg says his office will limit sentences to 20 years. He is refusing to seek the state-mandated "life without parole" for murderers, who would include terrorists, cop killers and even serial killers

Says serial killers.

NeoShadowhen posted...

Our methods do not work. This is a step in the wrong direction.

Why do the countries whose policies lie in this direction see lower rates of both crime and recidivism?

hockeybub89 posted...

Facts don't care about your feelings.

You can't make this shit up, people.

Antifar posted...

Why do the countries whose policies lie in this direction see lower rates of both crime and recidivism?

Because clearly they're worse countries than america

...wait

Because this other countries actually rehabilitate their criminals? Pleading people to misdemeanors and having them pay fines or do community service isn't going to rehab anyone.

Sounds fair.

lilORANG posted...

Because this other countries actually rehabilitate their criminals? Pleading people to misdemeanors and having them pay fines or do community service isn't going to rehab anyone.

Not our problem.

The rest of the functioning society rightfully shouldn't cater to the fuck-ups. Can't pay nor do the time? Then how about not doing that shit to begin with? No? Then fuck off to jail/prison and break rocks away from those who can act right.



It's a rather simple concept really.

NeoShadowhen posted...

Because its the worst thing one human being can do to another human being.

Does a shorter sentence unkill them? Derp.

No, but its eliminating a murderer. Good enough.

Are you arguing that there should be a trial, or that policy changes should have data backing them up?

Our methods do not work. This is a step in the wrong direction.

How long of a sentence do you think rapists should receive?

And sending someone to prison for decades is the worst punishment we give. Seems to track. Why isn't every country with shorter sentences or an abolished death penalty seeing more murder per capita than us? Shouldn't those "light" sentences be turning the world into a hellscape? I think rape should also be 20 years.

There is no proof our methods are making us superior. People get too emotional discussing crime. We'd be executing everyone that commits a crime if we actually let our reactionary brain dictate our justice system consistently.

Vicious_Dios posted...

Not our problem.

The rest of the functioning society rightfully shouldn't cater to the fuck-ups. Can't pay nor do the time? Then how about not doing that shit to begin with? No? Then fuck off to jail/prison and break rocks away from those who can act right.



It's a rather simple concept really.

So we should execute every criminal? Weird how the people tough on crime love doing nothing to stop it, but I guess we need a constant stream of reoffenders so we can constantly feel good for stopping them. Rehabilitation doesn't fatten our wallets or satisfy our bloodlust.

Vicious_Dios posted...

Not our problem.

(Needless to say, it is their problem, they just wants to satiate their lust for violence rather than take appropriate actions to curb crime.)

NeoShadowhen posted...

Yeah, every now and again they forget to switch accounts and say something transphobic or something. It might be time.

Rayman2943 posted...

Lol he does?

I'd appreciate you guys not making up lies, or thinking of everything in terms of the bullshit American political system.

uwnim posted...

20 years is a pretty fucking long time, tbh.

Tell that to families who will never see their loved ones again

Houston posted...

I don't think giving people short sentences for things like rape, murder or armed robbery is a good approach. Those are things people are flat out just not supposed to be doing and should be kept away from society.

20 years is not short. Like at all. It is about 1/3 of the average American's adult life. That is absolutely huge. Like you go in jail and during that time folks you know had kids and those kids are now adults. You see someone for the first time after 20 years and they look way older than they used to. Like 20 to 40 is massive. 50 to 70 is massive. Like losing that much of your life sounds absolutely terrifying to me.

uwnim posted...

20 years is not short. Like at all. It is about 1/3 of the average American's adult life. That is absolutely huge. Like you go in jail and during that time folks you know had kids and those kids are now adults. You see someone for the first time after 20 years and they look way older than they used to. Like 20 to 40 is massive. 50 to 70 is massive. Like losing that much of your life sounds absolutely terrifying to me.

For murder? If you take away someones life you should have your life ended in prison.

Antifar posted...

Why do the countries whose policies lie in this direction see lower rates of both crime and recidivism?

Which countries? Also, did these countries formerly have a comparable crime and recidivism rate and then after making changes see a decrease? If so, when were these changes implemented?

Frankly, I think anyone who has studied the subject at all knows that the threat of imprisonment is not a deterrent to criminal behavior. Likewise, there is a very serious problem with felons being unable to turn their life around due to being branded as such. There could definitely be improvement on this front.

Im all in favor of reclassifying a lot of felonies as misdemeanors, and making a lot of misdemeanors violations, and decriminalizing a whole shit load of things.

Its probably just sensational media bullshit that the focus landed on armed robbery and murder in particular, probably to get jack asses like myself all riled up for clicks.

But cmon. Were talking about murder. With something like that, remove them from society. Its not meant to be a deterrent, or rehabilitation or even punishment. Its about removing them.

Rayman2943 posted...

For murder? If you take away someones life you should have your life ended in prison.

And what good does that do? Like seriously how does that make anything better? It doesn't bring anyone back to life. And really, a punishment needs to end for the full weight of it to ever be felt.

Also, after 20 years, the person who committed the crime is dead. You are no longer the person you were 20 years ago. And the person you'll be in 20 more is not the you that exists now. We lose memories, we gain new ones. Our cells die, we age, transform. People aren't static.

Okay, so, I want to say something important

Murderers are still human beings and all human beings deserve certain basic human rights.

Furthermore, the circumstances of individual murders vary drastically, and its not rational to assert that everyone who murders has some innate "murder gene" or whatever.

Imagine a scenario in which a child gets assaulted by a predator, and their Father goes on to track down and kill the predator. That is very different from a sadist killing for pleasure or a sociopath killing for personal gain. The Father who murdered the predator should of course have their mental health evaluated while isolated from society for a number of years, but they shouldnt be branded as an evil person.

wiiking96 posted...

Okay, so, I want to say something important

Murderers are still human beings and all human beings deserve certain basic human rights.

Furthermore, the circumstances of individual murders vary drastically, and its not rational to assert that everyone who murders has some innate "murder gene" or whatever.

Imagine a scenario in which a child gets assaulted by a predator, and their Father goes on to track down and kill the predator. That is very different from a sadist killing for pleasure or a sociopath killing for personal gain. The Father who murdered the predator should of course have their mental health evaluated while isolated from society for a number of years, but they shouldnt be branded as an evil person.

Exactly. That scenario is definitely murder, but contextually different than others. Criminals, even violent ones, are generally made, not born. They might have made terrible choices, but we change them if we make an effort, or at least learn how to produce less of them in the future.

I think of some scenes in Mindhunter where the police of old were absolutely pissed off that someone was trying to learn what makes a killer rather than say they were born bad and continue just catching them after the fact.

At first I said, I cant believe what Im reading in this topic.

then I see who posted, then it all makes sense.

voldothegr8 posted...

On the flip side of that coin, what about when they get out and just keep on killing?

What about they go to jail for 50 years but turn out to be innocent and it was just a racist cop lying on their testimony?

uwnim posted...

20 years is not short. Like at all. It is about 1/3 of the average American's adult life. That is absolutely huge. Like you go in jail and during that time folks you know had kids and those kids are now adults. You see someone for the first time after 20 years and they look way older than they used to. Like 20 to 40 is massive. 50 to 70 is massive. Like losing that much of your life sounds absolutely terrifying to me.

I would kill myself if I went to prison for 20 years.

"Several serious crimes, like armed robbery, are being reduced to misdemeanors."

This is just stupid.

Solid Snake07 posted...

Tell that to families who will never see their loved ones again

I've yet to hear of a life sentence that made that feel better.

America needs Paul Kersey, thank you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1Bk1IsaWm0

MrDrMan posted...

Theres no difference between life in prison and a lethal injection to me.

There certainly is if there is a false conviction.

Armed robbery becoming a misdemeanor is the funniest thing I've heard all day

Vicious_Dios posted...

Not our problem.

The rest of the functioning society rightfully shouldn't cater to the fuck-ups. Can't pay nor do the time? Then how about not doing that shit to begin with? No? Then fuck off to jail/prison and break rocks away from those who can act right.



It's a rather simple concept really.

I'm sorry that your solution is to pretend that society isn't at fault for creating its own criminals.

Murderers do not deserve rehabilitation. If you kill an innocent person on purpose you deserve the same fate.

hockeybub89 posted...

I've yet to hear of a life sentence that made that feel better.

If you ignore the vast majority of victim impact testament statements that say they take some solace in the fact that the person who murdered them will spend the rest of their life behind bars, sure.