Current Events > I still cannot believe how bad Whedon managed to make Justice League *Spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

I love a lot of Whedon's and Snyder's productions. Wish people appreciated their stuff more.

It actually makes me angry to see how much better ZSJL is. Like I can't believe WB ever decided to seriously release that shit.

sLaCkEr408___RJ posted...

I love a lot of Whedon's and Snyder's productions. Wish people appreciated their stuff more.

I would sacrifice a testicle to get a meaningful Firefly continuation.

Questionmarktarius posted...

I would sacrifice a testicle to get a meaningful Firefly continuation.

(Monkey's paw curls) Zack Snyder's Serenity

DeadBankerDream posted...

I don't understand why people shit on Whedon for this. He was literally hired to turn a grimdark Snyder film that was already in production into a Whedon film. Blame the executives who hired him to do that.

But also lol @ pretending Snyder's films are worth anything.

Right. TC is acting like this was actually a Whedon film and not a recut Snyder film.

Tyranthraxus posted...

(Monkey's paw curls) Zack Snyder's Serenity

there goes my other testicle

lolife67 posted...

Right. TC is acting like this was actually a Whedon film and not a recut Snyder film.

Did you see both versions? Because I'm betting you didn't. A very large portion of the scenes in Whedon's cut weren't actually in the Snyder script at all. Whedon added tons and tons of awful dialogue, rewrote existing scenes to be "funny" instead of, you know..good...

And he literally wrote Darkseid completely out of the film for no reason at all. At least one scene of him should have stayed in.

If you have any doubts about how different it all really is, watch both movies back to back. You'll see that most of the core plot is the same, and a lot of the action is the same, but I'd be willing to bet less than 20% of the Whedon cut's dialogue is actually from the Snyder Cut. They're two insanely different movies on almost every level, from the dialogue to the CGI to the music, and to the story in general.

If you don't have 6 hours to spare (and I can't blame you for not wanting to waste 2 hours watching the Whedon cut), you can watch this ~25 minute video instead for a pretty good rundown of what's different overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uemtKijCHyQ

lolife67 posted...

Right. TC is acting like this was actually a Whedon film and not a recut Snyder film.

yea its weird cause most of the changes whedon made were improvements on snyders crap lol

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Did you see both versions? Because I'm betting you didn't.

You'd be very wrong. Whedon got a 4 hour film and was told to cut it down to less than 2 hours, as well as "lighten it up." Thinking this was the same film he'd have made all on his own is both wrong and stupid.

lolife67 posted...

You'd be very wrong. Whedon got a 4 hour film and was told to cut it down to less than 2 hours, as well as "lighten it up." Thinking this was the same film he'd have made all on his own is both wrong and stupid.

Part of it was recut. A looot of it was completely re-shot to be more of a Whedon film. Dialogue changes are absolutely everywhere. You can literally see from a bunch of scenes (Most notably when Lois and Clark arrive on the farm, and when Cyborg is on the ground after dealing with the motherboxes) in the Whedon version that the lip syncing doesn't even match up in the slightest.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Part of it was recut.

No, most of it was. Again, he was given 4+ hours and mandated to make it into 2.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

A looot of it was completely re-shot to be more of a Whedon film. Dialogue changes are absolutely everywhere. You can literally see from a bunch of scenes (Most notably when Lois and Clark arrive on the farm, and when Cyborg is on the ground after dealing with the motherboxes) in the Whedon version that the lip syncing doesn't even match up in the slightest

This is all incorrect. Again, he had to cut 2 hours out so it wasn't his own film, period. "A lot" wasn't reshot, actually. He didn't do an entire film from scratch.

lolife67 posted...

He didn't do an entire film from scratch.

He changed nearly everything including the core plot of the movie. It's not as if he just cut shit he also filmed entirely new shit for no reason that added negative value.

Like people give Snyder shit for having Superman be this kind of dark and brooding guy in BvS but it was Whedon who shot and filmed Superman holding up Batman by the throat asking him if he bleeds. That didn't happen in the original ZS cut.

lolife67 posted...

Again, he had to cut 2 hours out so it wasn't his own film, period. "A lot" wasn't reshot, actually. He didn't do an entire film from scratch.

He didn't just cut two hours. He cut two hours and then completely changed the two hours that were left. He rewrote Steppenwolf to be a crazy person who worships boxes instead of being a disgraced warrior of Apokolips trying to use the boxes to garner favor with Darkseid and return home. Cyborg barely says anything at all, but when he does, he says "Booyah"

There's an entire subplot in the Whedon version that focuses on this weird Russian family that's just kinda...living near where Steppenwolf is gathering the boxes. I get the impression we're supposed to care about them, but there's no reason for them to exist at all. Whedon literally added several minutes of running time to service a plot thread that did not need to be there.

The entire scene of Bruce and Diana arguing about bringing Superman back to life wasn't in the original. Bruce randomly decided to go on some Tony Starkian spiel about how science is meant to do wondrous things or w/e. Everybody told jokes. The Flash was rewritten to not only be goofy, but to also be grossly incompetent and pretty cowardly.

The Flash's character arc in ZSJL is about coming into his own, finding his place, realizing that he is absolutely one of the earth's most powerful heroes. In the Whedon version, The Flash's arc is to...be scared, then push a truck. That's more or less how his part in the story ends.

In the Whedon version, Superman shows up and basically single-handedly solves the entire problem while Batman stands on a ledge and basically cries. In the ZSJL, Superman died like the rest of them when the Mother Boxes synchronized and exploded, and only The Flash was capable of saving them all and giving Cyborg the power jump needed to break into the Mother Boxes and force them apart.

Speaking of mishandled characters...Cyborg in the Whedon cut was just kind of there. He didn't have a real character arc. He didn't have that huge, impactful character moment. He never said "I'm not broken...and I'm not alone."

You can make the argument that if you mute the audio and turn everything black and white, you might not be able to tell the difference between certain scenes in the Whedon cut and certain scenes in the ZSJL, but even then...tons of them are definitely reshot with wider angles, brighter lighting, completely different sets, etc.

There are huge differences. I'd say around 35% or more of the 2 hour Whedon cut was actually completely new footage shot by Whedon, with another 50% or so being Snyder footage that was tweaked or redubbed in some way. Pretty much ALL of the original music was replaced, too.

Tyranthraxus posted...

He changed nearly everything including the core plot of the movie.

This is completely false. The core plot is the exact same.

He made it worse but it was already bad.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

He didn't just cut two hours. He cut two hours and then completely changed the two hours that were left. He rewrote Steppenwolf to be a crazy person who worships boxes instead of being a disgraced warrior of Apokolips trying to use the boxes to garner favor with Darkseid and return home. Cyborg barely says anything at all, but when he does, he says "Booyah"

There's an entire subplot in the Whedon version that focuses on this weird Russian family that's just kinda...living near where Steppenwolf is gathering the boxes. I get the impression we're supposed to care about them, but there's no reason for them to exist at all. Whedon literally added several minutes of running time to service a plot thread that did not need to be there.

The entire scene of Bruce and Diana arguing about bringing Superman back to life wasn't in the original. Bruce randomly decided to go on some Tony Starkian spiel about how science is meant to do wondrous things or w/e. Everybody told jokes. The Flash was rewritten to not only be goofy, but to also be grossly incompetent and pretty cowardly.

The Flash's character arc in ZSJL is about coming into his own, finding his place, realizing that he is absolutely one of the earth's most powerful heroes. In the Whedon version, The Flash's arc is to...be scared, then push a truck. That's more or less how his part in the story ends.

In the Whedon version, Superman shows up and basically single-handedly solves the entire problem while Batman stands on a ledge and basically cries. In the ZSJL, Superman died like the rest of them when the Mother Boxes synchronized and exploded, and only The Flash was capable of saving them all and giving Cyborg the power jump needed to break into the Mother Boxes and force them apart.

Speaking of mishandled characters...Cyborg in the Whedon cut was just kind of there. He didn't have a real character arc. He didn't have that huge, impactful character moment. He never said "I'm not broken...and I'm not alone."

You can make the argument that if you mute the audio and turn everything black and white, you might not be able to tell the difference between certain scenes in the Whedon cut and certain scenes in the ZSJL, but even then...tons of them are definitely reshot with wider angles, brighter lighting, completely different sets, etc.

There are huge differences. I'd say around 35% or more of the 2 hour Whedon cut was actually completely new footage shot by Whedon, with another 50% or so being Snyder footage that was tweaked or redubbed in some way. Pretty much ALL of the original music was replaced, too.

Bruh, Whedon didn't plot, story board or come up with the main story beats himself. You can not like his changes, that's fine. But blaming him as though he made the film from scratch is dumb. Nobody could've salvaged this based in the stipulations.

lolife67 posted...

This is completely false. The core plot is the exact same.

Where in the theatrical cut did they talk about Anti-Life?

Tyranthraxus posted...

Where in the theatrical cut did they talk about Anti-Life?

The core plot would be an invasion from Apokolips lead by Steppenwolf and the League forms to combat that. Tell me what was changed there?

lolife67 posted...

The core plot would be an invasion from Apokolips lead by Steppenwolf and the League forms to combat that. Tell me what was changed there?

The only time Darkseid is mentioned in the theatrical cut is at the very end in a throwaway line during the final battle. So basically everything changed.

Tyranthraxus posted...

The only time Darkseid is mentioned in the theatrical cut is at the very end in a throwaway line during the final battle. So basically everything changed.

Darkseid being omitted doesn't change the plot. I'm not sure you know exactly what "core plot" actually means? The word you're looking for is "motivation," which isn't the same thing.

Ok now I'm wondering if I should rewatch the Whedon cut instead of BvS prior to ZS cut..

lolife67 posted...

Darkseid being omitted doesn't change the plot. I'm not sure you know exactly what "core plot" actually means?

The only unchanged part of the "core plot" is about bringing Superman back to life to fight steppenwolf. The reasons why they're doing it are different. The stakes for failure are different. And finally the means through which it's accomplished are different.

lolife67 posted...

Bruh, Whedon didn't plot, story board or come up with the main story beats himself. You can not like his changes, that's fine. But blaming him as though he made the film from scratch is dumb. Nobody could've salvaged this based in the stipulations.

He didn't make the film from scratch, no. That's true. But the things he changed made the film significantly worse. If he had just taken Snyder's scenes and cut two hours out, it would have been a weirdly paced affair, but it would have been much, much better than what we got from Whedon. Whedon is responsible for the bad jokes. He's responsible for the Russian Family. He's responsible for the lack of Darkseid in the final product. He's responsible for Superman saying that being dead felt "itchy and so, so weird."

He's responsible for useless Flash and useless Cyborg. He's responsible for the eye-scorching bright red tone of the final act. He's responsible for a lot of the dumb stuff that was in the Whedon cut. The good stuff from the Whedon cut is the stuff he changed the least from the Snyder cut, but everything is a bit different from top to bottom because of the change in music. The whole score was replaced. If you don't think music is a major component of a film, then I dunno, dude. If you count the musical changes, it's more like a full 90%+ of the film was changed outright.

The DC Cinematic Universe Snyder films are bad.

If Snyder had gotten his way and made his Justice League film in black & white the fanboys would still be defending it.

iPhone_7 posted...

The DC Cinematic Universe Snyder films are bad.

I disagree strongly with this statement.

im stuck inside i could dedicate an entire day to a Snyder Cut of the Titanic

Gobstoppers12 posted...

He didn't make the film from scratch, no. That's true. But the things he changed made the film significantly worse. If he had just taken Snyder's scenes and cut two hours out, it would have been a weirdly paced affair, but it would have been much, much better than what we got from Whedon

If that's all WB wanted they wouldn't have hired Whedon to begin with.

Batman Returns is better than BvS btw. Much more entertaining and memorable film even with its flaws.

Punished_Blinx posted...

Batman Returns is better than BvS btw

I'm gonna have to fiercely contest you on this point. Batman Returns is a true disaster on every level.

A lot of those older movies I used to think were awesome like Batman Returns and Terminator 2 are actually kind of fucking terrible if you rewatch them today.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

I'm gonna have to fiercely contest you on this point. Batman Returns is a true disaster on every level.

Catwoman and Penguin are more entertaining than anything from any DC Snyder movie.

Tyranthraxus posted...

The only unchanged part of the "core plot" is about bringing Superman back to life to fight steppenwolf. The reasons why they're doing it are different. The stakes for failure are different. And finally the means through which it's accomplished are different.

steppenwolf wants to fuse 3 boxes together and the justice league has to stop him

its the exact same plot lol

ThePusher posted...

steppenwolf wants to fuse 3 boxes together and the justice league has to stop him

its the exact same plot lol

Bad guy does thing and good guy stop them all superhero movie plot the same

Isn't it kinda obvious they removed the Darkseid stuff because they already knew all of their plans would have to be scrapped after the reception to BvS?

Tyranthraxus posted...

Bad guy does thing and good guy stop them all superhero movie plot the same

smh lmao

Tyranthraxus posted...

A lot of those older movies I used to think were awesome like Batman Returns and Terminator 2 are actually kind of fucking terrible if you rewatch them today.

oh ur just a troll lol carry on

ThePusher posted...

steppenwolf wants to fuse 3 boxes together and the justice league has to stop him

its the exact same plot lol

Bad guy wants to fuse multiple ancient items together and the superhero team has to stop him.

It's the exact same plot as Infinity War.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Bad guy wants to fuse multiple ancient items together and the superhero team has to stop him.

It's the exact same plot as Infinity War.

pretty similar yea

tell me the plot differences in the whedon and snyder cuts pls

ThePusher posted...

pretty similar yea

tell me the plot differences in the whedon and snyder cuts pls

There are more than you must think, if you're saying this. But I'm sure if I listed all the ways it's different, you'll hit me with a "but it's still the same," so something tells me my time is better served doing literally anything other than that.

Punished_Blinx posted...

Isn't it kinda obvious they removed the Darkseid stuff because they already knew all of their plans would have to be scrapped after the reception to BvS?

No. Just no

Bishop9800 posted...

No. Just no

Really? I thought it was pretty obvious that WB had lost all faith in the DCEU on the lead up to Justice League. Which was why Whedon was brought in to begin with. To try and salvage it into a more mainstream Marvel type movie and make some of their sunk costs back.

It would make sense for them to try and not make it feel like a movie with a lot of loss ends as much as possible. So Darkseid was pretty much cut.

That's what I remember at least. Hype for JL was pathetically low.

*flash has super cool action scene where he saves everyone from danger at high speed*
*superman flies by with a house full of people*
Why they gotta turn the most likeable hero in the DCU (at the time) into a cuckboy like that?

Gobstoppers12 posted...

There are more than you must think, if you're saying this. But I'm sure if I listed all the ways it's different, you'll hit me with a "but it's still the same," so something tells me my time is better served doing literally anything other than that.

i promise to acknowledge if theres any major plot differences pls enlighten me

ThePusher posted...

i promise to acknowledge if theres any major plot differences pls enlighten me

Knightmare sequence

ThePusher posted...

i promise to acknowledge if theres any major plot differences pls enlighten me

Cyborg's father sacrifices himself in order to reveal the location of Steppenwolf's stronghold, which leads directly to the scene within the mother box which Cyborg has to overcome. The promise of being reunited with his mother, his father, and his human body. None of this happens in the Whedon cut.

The Anti-Life equation is revealed to be on Earth, and this is why Darkseid decides to involve himself, but this is never mentioned in the Whedon cut and Darkseid doesn't even make an appearance.

The Whedon cut has some kind of goofy blue's clues situation where Batman keeps randomly finding images of the mother boxes. On random bar walls, in the viscera of exploded parademons, etc. It's silly, makes no sense, and didn't need to happen.

The Flash is revealed during the Superman revival scene to have the ability to reverse time if he runs fast enough, which comes into play later.

The heroes fucking fail. The boxes converge together. They explode across the entire planet. Even Superman is vaporized. Then we see that The Flash is the last one standing, on the precipice of oblivion, and he resolves then and there to run as fast as he can to reverse the calamity.

Literally, without the Flash, the day was lost. Without Cyborg, the day was lost. Superman may have beaten Steppenwolf physically, but it took Victor and Barry's contributions for the mission to actually succeed.

Darkseid ends the film preparing his armada to invade the earth personally. Keep in mind he wasn't in the Whedon version at all, whereas he's the entire driving force behind the plot in ZSJL.

Also, in Whedon's, the parademons have this Saturday morning cartoon thing going on where they pounce on Steppenwolf because he shows fear or some nonsense, whereas in the real story he gets taken down personally by the combined efforts of Aquaman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. They sent his severed head through Darkseid's boom tube as a hell of a message.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Cyborg's father sacrifices himself in order to reveal the location of Steppenwolf's stronghold, which leads directly to the scene within the mother box which Cyborg has to overcome. The promise of being reunited with his mother, his father, and his human body. None of this happens in the Whedon cut.

The Anti-Life equation is revealed to be on Earth, and this is why Darkseid decides to involve himself, but this is never mentioned in the Whedon cut and Darkseid doesn't even make an appearance.

The Whedon cut has some kind of goofy blue's clues situation where Batman keeps randomly finding images of the mother boxes. On random bar walls, in the viscera of exploded parademons, etc. It's silly, makes no sense, and didn't need to happen.

The Flash is revealed during the Superman revival scene to have the ability to reverse time if he runs fast enough, which comes into play later.

The heroes fucking fail. The boxes converge together. They explode across the entire planet. Even Superman is vaporized. Then we see that The Flash is the last one standing, on the precipice of oblivion, and he resolves then and there to run as fast as he can to reverse the calamity.

Literally, without the Flash, the day was lost. Without Cyborg, the day was lost. Superman may have beaten Steppenwolf physically, but it took Victor and Barry's contributions for the mission to actually succeed.

Darkseid ends the film preparing his armada to invade the earth personally. Keep in mind he wasn't in the Whedon version at all, whereas he's the entire driving force behind the plot in ZSJL.

Also, in Whedon's, the parademons have this Saturday morning cartoon thing going on where they pounce on Steppenwolf because he shows fear or some nonsense, whereas in the real story he gets taken down personally by the combined efforts of Aquaman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. They sent his severed head through Darkseid's boom tube as a hell of a message.

your naming differences in the movies. im asking you how the plots are different

darkseid not being in the movie has little to no effect on the plot

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Very false. Those are both high-tier movies. Even if you absolutely hate Snyder, I can't imagine a world in which either BvS:UE or MoS are considered worse than Batman Returns.

I can. It's called reality.

I always see ppl praising Watchmen, but it was mostly a straight rip from the original with a slightly different ending sequence that didn't matter too much in the grand scheme of things. Maybe Zack Snyder has talent in certain aspects of directing, and it's difficult to deny him of that, but creating an original story or a whole extended universe obviously isn't his forte. Whedon has already had a history of successfully pulling this off, though of course plenty of others came later that proved to have even better talents in this regard. But to say the whole original cut was his fault just doesn't sound right to me.

I mean this movie kinda killed his entire career lol. Though I guess the allegations that came for Whedon later dealt the final blow. I still think he's made better stuff than Snyder has ever done. Firefly is still one of my favorite shows ever

Gobstoppers12 posted...

...

All this plus

The reason the motherboxes were on earth in the first place is because of a failed invasion by Uxas. In Whedon's cut they're on earth because ayy lmao.

Superman's death scream is what triggers the motherboxes to reactivate. In Whedon's cut they're active because ayy lmao.

The reason Superman went berserk and attacked the Justice league is because the future (the knightmare future where Superman has succumbed to Anti-Life) manifested in the present. In Whedon's cut he's just confused.

DC fans might not want to admit it, but Marvel has the formula down and DC should partner up with the studios for movies only.

--Zero- posted...

DC fans might not want to admit it, but Marvel has the formula down and DC should partner up with the studios for movies only.

No thanks. If I want more marvel movies I'd watch marvel movies

What if you want good DC movies?