Current Events > Anti vaxxers simply don't like being told what to do

(+) Yeah! (+)

UnholyMudcrab posted...

Neither of those options will persuade anti-vaxxers, so we might as well call them names.

Personally I know several people who in the early days of the covid vaccine were uncertain but later became convinced that it was a good choice, the amount of people who choose to get the covid vaccine has increased over time.

I think it is a bad strategy to resign yourself to an antagonistic stance you know is doomed to fail rather than be open to people adopting a calm data based stance that may be slower that many of us would like but still will persuade many.

I'm not saying your frustration is invalid, I'm just saying people's approach should be aligned with the goals, and thus if the goal is getting more people vaccinated the approach should be aligned with that.

Strider102 posted...

Idunno, they did what Trump told them to do.

More like they do what they're told but only if it aligns with their own personal beliefs.

Crazy to think Ice Cube and Kyrie Irving are that obsessed with Trump.

Gucci_Josh posted...

Personally I know several people who in the early days of the covid vaccine were uncertain but later became convinced that it was a good choice, the amount of people who choose to get the covid vaccine has increased over time.

I think it is a bad strategy to resign yourself to an antagonistic stance you know is doomed to fail rather than be open to people adopting a calm data based stance that may be slower that many of us would like but still will persuade many.

I'm not saying your frustration is invalid, I'm just saying people's approach should be aligned with the goals, and thus if the goal is getting more people vaccinated the approach should be aligned with that.

Nah. They can shut the fuck up. Be correct or get left behind. No tolerance for bullshit. They have no excuse.

gatorsPENSbucs posted...

Crazy to think Ice Cube and Kyrie Irving are that obsessed with Trump.

Are black people not allowed to think for themselves?

The fact of the matter is that there are far too many people who essentially have to experience tragedy because of covid personally in order to change their minds.

It shouldn't take millions of people individually getting severe covid infections, ending up in the hospital, and coming out with long term symptoms that may never go away or dying from it in order for them to change their minds a few at a time.

CableZL posted...

The past couple years have proven this to be absolutely false for a large portion of the population. When presented with data, they just come up with a conspiracy theory that says the exact opposite.

We know:
* The overwhelming vast majority of people going to the hospital with covid are unvaccinated.

They claim:
* Vaccinated people are the ones filling up hospitals

I am completely open to being proven wrong, but I don't believe I've seen even the most crazy anti-vaxxers claim that you are more likely to be hospitalized if vaccinated.

If you look at that gallop poll, for example, even the republicans clearly thought that vaccination reduced the risk of hospitalization considerably.

CableZL posted...

The fact of the matter is that there are far too many people who essentially have to experience tragedy because of covid personally in order to change their minds.

It shouldn't take millions of people individually getting severe covid infections, ending up in the hospital, and coming out with long term symptoms that may never go away or dying from it in order for them to change their minds a few at a time.

I'm not disagreeing with the frustration at them. Or saying their logic isn't flawed.

The main thrust of my argument is that if increasing vaccination is the goal, a clear and sober presentation of the data, (and the data being well known and easily shared/found) is the means to that end IMO.

But that said, I do very much sympathize with your frustration towards them.

Gucci_Josh posted...

I am completely open to being proven wrong, but I don't believe I've seen even the most crazy anti-vaxxers claim that you are more likely to be hospitalized if vaccinated.

Someone literally said that on CE last week. Lots of anti-vaxxers are repeating that garbage.

CableZL posted...

Someone literally said that on CE last week. Lots of anti-vaxxers are repeating that garbage.

Let's hope they were trolling, because that is nonsense.

I'm no longer willing to give them the benefit of the doubt of being disingenuous. We're at over 900,000 covid deaths in the US alone and over 5.5 million globally. Their dumbassery is getting people killed needlessly.

CableZL posted...

It shouldn't take millions of people individually getting severe covid infections, ending up in the hospital, and coming out with long term symptoms that may never go away or dying from it in order for them to change their minds a few at a time.

This is happening mainly because govt is pretending early treatment doesn't exist.

Doesn't matter. Can't pretend the truth isn't the truth

and When you see a picture of them they all loook the same fake tough guy drives a truck to seem like theyre a macho too

onedarksoul posted...

This is happening mainly because govt is pretending early treatment doesn't exist.

No, it's happening because anti-vaxxers are spreading blatantly false information that people are choosing to believe. Then when they're in the hospital with severe infections, many of them are begging for vaccines even though it's too late at that point. Others argue with doctors and nurses about whether they really have covid or not. And a few are even threatening the lives of the people treating them.

Source: their ignoring everything but vaccines campaign over the last 13 months

So you need sources for blatantly obvious statements of fact
Says a lot of your observation skills

onedarksoul posted...

Source: their ignoring everything but vaccines campaign over the last 13 months

I think he was asking for the source that early treatment does exist and is effective.

Was he? Let him say it if so.

onedarksoul posted...

Was he? Let him say it if so.

What you posted in response was not a source.

so what?

onedarksoul posted...

so what?

If you expect people to take you seriously, you should be able to back up your claims with some sort of actual evidence. Your claim that the government has been ignoring everything except for vaccines is blatantly false. Guidelines about mask wearing, social distancing, and sanitizing have been repeated ad nauseum since the pandemic began. Then when vaccines were made available, they were recommended in addition to those safety guidelines.

Anti-vaxxers just want to disregard all of that and continue to spread their bullshit.

Maskwearing/distancing/sanitizing are not treatments. They are billed as preventative measures, just like the vaccine.

Maybe I should've clarified. Thought it was obvious but maybe not. I meant once you already have the disease. Early treatment comes into play once you've contracted something, not as precautions against contracting it. Once you've contracted it: what do you do? What should all of the people have done who died before the vaccine was available? Were there truly no options at that point?

onedarksoul posted...

Maskwearing/distancing/sanitizing are not treatments. They are billed as preventative measures, just like the vaccine.

Maybe I should've clarified. Thought it was obvious but maybe not. I meant once you already have the disease. Early treatment comes into play once you've contracted something, not as precautions against contracting it. Once you've contracted it: what do you do? What should all of the people have done who died before the vaccine was available? Were there truly no options at that point?

And your statement would still be blatantly false. Yes, there was a long stretch of time where no early treatment was known. The medical community was scrambling to come up with solutions, and in many aspects, they still are. We currently have anti-viral pills specifically for covid, monoclonal antibodiy treatments, and treatments for some symptoms. There are reports that monoclonal antibody treatments that were made for older strains are nowhere near as effective against the omicron variant, though. Then there are also the supply chain issues causing the pills and antibody treatments to be scarce.

Someone in the medial community feel free to correct me on this, but if you get a severe infection that causes your lungs to lose their ability to absorb oxygen, we don't really have a treatment for that.

onedarksoul posted...

Maskwearing/distancing/sanitizing are not treatments. They are billed as preventative measures, just like the vaccine.

Maybe I should've clarified. Thought it was obvious but maybe not. I meant once you already have the disease. Early treatment comes into play once you've contracted something, not as precautions against contracting it. Once you've contracted it: what do you do? What should all of the people have done who died before the vaccine was available? Were there truly no options at that point?

What should people do? What, in your estimation, are the most effective early treatments? And what is the best data showing their efficacy?

I'll let Forcena clarify if thats what he was asking for.

Gucci_Josh posted...

Most people operate on emotion/intuition, but if you want to persuade people generally that is done through data and objective and calm means.

It's literally not.

It would be a lovely world if people were swayed by facts and data.

The reality is that all it takes is one passionate, charismatic jackass who tells people what they want to hear to convince them to abandon logic and data completely.

Cue 45

Gucci_Josh posted...

Fauci says it's very likely to become endemic, meaning completely preventing people from being exposed is unlikely:
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2022/01/18/1073802431/fauci-says-covid-19-wont-go-away-like-smallpox?t=1643569902335

This plus the fact that vaccinated can still spread the virus (even though they almost always have better outcomes for themselves) suggests that the "get vaccinated to protect others from catching it" doesn't seem like a logical argument anymore.

The mandate makes some sense if it completely stopped the spread and if most people would never be exposed, but with Fauci saying it's becoming endemic neither argument is true anymore.

At this point a person choosing to not get the covid vaccine is jeopardizing their own health/well being, but having little (if any) impact on the lives of others.

you endanger the lives of people who cannot get vaccinated by spreading it to them. having more severe symptoms increases the likelihood of spread

Fam_Fam posted...

you endanger the lives of people who cannot get vaccinated by spreading it to them. having more severe symptoms increases the likelihood of spread

If it becomes endemic, as Fauci argues, then isn't he saying that everybody will likely get it?

If Fauci is right, and it is spreading to everybody, then "stopping the spread" is impossible, is it not?

onedarksoul posted...

I'll let Forcena clarify if thats what he was asking for.

I was personally curious what your response to that question is.

I want to be up to date in my knowledge of the most effective early treatments, if they exist.

50% not wanting to be told what to do, even if it benefits themselves and everyone else
50% regressing to little boys and girls who don't want to get their shot

If you guys are genuinely curious, I'll put together some bullet points about whats out there. It'll be a week or so, have a busy work week coming up. Real facts could help some of you and thats precisely why the media doesn't give us any.

onedarksoul posted...

If you guys are genuinely curious, I'll put together some bullet points about whats out there. It'll be a week or so, have a busy work week coming up. Real facts could help some of you and thats precisely why the media doesn't give us any.

You'd think the media would do a better job of not making these "real facts" accessible to anyone with an Internet connection, but I guess "the media" has conditioned me to think with logic and reject conspiracy theories from people who think they are brilliant if the media they believe without question tells them the rest of the media is lying to them.

I've never met someone who talked about real facts or being a free thinker that had actually possessed facts or self-awareness

Gucci_Josh posted...

If it becomes endemic, as Fauci argues, then isn't he saying that everybody will likely get it?

If Fauci is right, and it is spreading to everybody, then "stopping the spread" is impossible, is it not?

its not about stopping, and never has been, its about minimizing and reducing the number of deaths/hospitalizations/very sick people. one outcome is a higher number, one is a lower, it should be clear which is better from a public health standpoint

AssultTank posted...

Here we go, some data for you @Gucci_Josh
This is using data for Jan 20-26, so Omicron data.
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/data-tables/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf

Unvaccinated 12-34 year-olds in Washington are
2 times more likely to get COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 12-34 year-olds.
5 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 12-34 year-olds.

Unvaccinated 35-64 year-olds are
3 times more likely to get COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 35-64 year-olds.
7 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 35-64 year-olds.

Unvaccinated 65+ year-olds are
4 times more likely to get COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 65+ year-olds.
7 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 65+ year-olds.
11 times more likely to die of COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 65+ year-olds.

Oh hey, looks like being vaccinated reduces the risk of catching COVID (And therefore the risk of spreading it. Can't spread it if you don't catch it.)

Thanks!

I honestly think if they just handed out this data sheet with sources it would be more effective at persuading people to get vaccinated than the emotional tactics some people employ.

In the end it's not an emotional or even political argument, but a data one.

Fam_Fam posted...

its not about stopping, and never has been, its about minimizing and reducing the number of deaths/hospitalizations/very sick people. one outcome is a higher number, one is a lower, it should be clear which is better from a public health standpoint

I'm still slightly confused by this. Yes getting vaccinated keeps the person who is vaccinated safer, but if Fauci is arguing that it will become endemic, then getting vaccinated doesn't protect others from catching COVID, because as Fauci argues, everybody is going to get it eventually.

What's wrong about this understanding?

onedarksoul posted...

If you guys are genuinely curious, I'll put together some bullet points about whats out there. It'll be a week or so, have a busy work week coming up. Real facts could help some of you and thats precisely why the media doesn't give us any.

I am genuinely curious.

I hear having good vitamin D levels (in addition to vaccination obviously) improves outcomes, but I am not aware of what effective treatments (if any) there are for people who catch COVID.

The D in vitamin D stands for DICK, which means PENIS, just fyi...

Lol I regret making this topic

If onedarksoul's suspension lasts longer than a week, he won't be able to post his bullshit on time...