Current Events > 72% of American support some form of UBI (Universal Basic Income)

(+) Yeah! (+)

WingsOfGood posted...

I would actually worker harder if I had UBI than I do on my job that pays me well.

This is because UBI would allow me to pursue interests like writing which doesn't have a instant payoff and might take some time to figure out how to do well.

Meanwhile, sitting on my butt at my IT job which affords me to post here during workhours gives me instant payoff and financial security. It doesn't however help me innovate beyond providing some sort of value to shareholders who themselves are not innovative either.

Oh fuck no I definitely wouldn't be more productive lol. I'd totally just chill at home and collect that sweet sweet mollah. Make it happen already government! I'd be all happy and quit my job instantly. Better be at least $2k a month though.

It is never going to happen, get your head out of the clouds

With UBI I'd be able to quit my job and visit gamefaqs on a more regular basis and hang out with you fine fellas.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Yikes.

At least youre consistent lol.

I am, I always am. There is a notion that people can change the world by half-assing effort. I sincerely believe this to not be true.

It's a difference of philosophy. I refuse to accept any handout, with the exception of med school tuition since I don't come from a rich family. However I did my due diligence and have nearly paid it off.

Once my mortgage is paid off I'm going to stop working as a doc.

Its called social security.

Yeah but I want that money now.

NightingaleMD posted...

I am, I always am. There is a notion that people can change the world by half-assing effort. I sincerely believe this to not be true.

It's a difference of philosophy.

Oh for sure. I respect you infinitely more for not cherry picking.

Theres a disagreement on what constitutes half assing ofc.

Arnold Schwarzenegger did great things through hard work.

But I personally think its unfair to expect the above average performance out of the average person.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Arnold Schwarzenegger did great things through hard work.

But I personally think its unfair to expect the above average performance out of the average person.

You're not wrong. Arnold is actually the epitome of the american dream: poor immigrant that becomes A-list movie start, world class body builder, multimillionaire and governor. Too bad he's apparently a rapist?? Other than that he's a true idol for hard work.

Here's the key contention: If someone is willing to commit average performance, what kind of lifestyle should they expect to live? That's where the discrepancy comes in.

For context, I did a medical mission to a mountain village to Nepal back in residency. This was true, abject poverty. yet everyone able worked, even the elderly. The work ethic was amazing and they lived in squalid conditions.

By comparison, living in a 1BR apartment on gov't cheese and doing nothing seems like a low quality of life. Yet, they do nothing and exist for free. When you compare it's hard to see why people would ask for even more for less effort.

WingsOfGood posted...

To explain some more what I mean above that this is exactly what UBI is.

The point of UBI is to cover BASIC needs to not die.
Will you be able to buy a car with UBI? No.
Will you get a fancy place to live? No.
Can you eat at a fancy steakhouse with UBI alot? No.

Will it help you pay for rent and food? Yes.
Will it help you cover medical costs? Yes.

So, most people will infact still work jobs, even flipping burgers at McDonalds. Infact, more people might fill low wage jobs since they can afford to live while being at them.
More people can go to college since they won't have to kill themselves as much working multiple jobs to pay for it (unless greedy universities raise prices more).

Why? Because most people don't want just the lowest standard economy apartment as their standard of living.

Will there be male neets who are ok with that and just playing video games all day? Probably, but also most likely not anymore then than there is now.

If there's anyone out there that thinks the intention of UBI is "free money so you don't have to work" should really read this and then read it 4 more times.

Anyone pushing UBI tends to go no higher than a $1000 a month payout. Which is $12k a year.

That would barely cover groceries and utilities for a family of 4.

BUT, it would allow that family of 4 to take $12k of their actual income and put it away to help their children in the future, pay down their mortgage faster, replace a car they probably should've replaces years ago, afford home improvements they've been putting off for too long, etc.

NightingaleMD posted...

Elon musk has an excellent quote about this. Something to the effect of "no one ever accomplished anything on a 40 hour work week." It's true.

So you are a billionaire now?
Otherwise why you assume that applies to you?
Also, lol Elon Musk was rich his whole life.

NightingaleMD posted...

That probably applies to full, professional writers. I don't accept advances for due dates because I'm not a "professional writer," insofar as it's not my full time job. Like I said, it's a quarter of my total income. I'm a full time doctor by profession. So yes, 2,000 words every day or few days is enough for me. If I were a fulltime writer then no, that would be quite lazy :P

Writing a good novel requires more than just writing 2000 words whenever.

It requires research, meditation, rewriting because your editor said what wrote sucks.

Idk what you write, but to claim wanting to use UBI to the end of being professional with some income is lazy is ignorant.

WingsOfGood posted...

Writing a good novel requires more than just writing 2000 words whenever.

It requires research, meditation, rewriting because your editor said what wrote sucks.

Wow. That's a lot of advice from someone that has never published anything. That seems straight copied out of a writing blog. Elements of that are correct, I do spend about as much time editing as I do writing. Editing is what makes a manuscript good.

I'll take personal experience over your own advice pls :P

NightingaleMD posted...

Anyway, my point is don't hide behind your job as a reason to not be writing. Rowling wrote her first book homeless. My idol Stephen King wrote carrie as a high school teacher. Very few people start as "full time writers." If you've got a good idea in your head, write it down! Don't hide behind work as a reason to delay. If you can't write right now, you won't be able to write fulltime, I promise.

Homeless meant she spent the whole day doing it.

King wrote since he was a child and was on drugs so heavily he didn't remember writing those books.

I know this becuase I read his book titled "On Writing"

2000 words a day is actually easy.
2000 good words is a different story.

NightingaleMD posted...

Wow. That's a lot of advice from someone that has never published anything. That seems straight copied out of a writing blog. Elements of that are correct, I do spend about as much time editing as I do writing. Editing is what makes a manuscript good.

I'll take personal experience over your own advice pls :P

How much time exactly? I broke down the hours you had that you squeezed it all in.

Less and less does this sound truthful.

The hours you're referencing are when I was a resident. I worked 80 hours a week most months in that three year period.

I'm an attending now. I work 120 hours a month. Huge difference in lifestyle. I get plenty of sleep nowadays.

NightingaleMD posted...

Here's the key contention: If someone is willing to commit average performance, what kind of lifestyle should they expect to live?

Average would be my say.

NightingaleMD posted...

By comparison, living in a 1BR apartment on gov't cheese and doing nothing seems like a low quality of life.

This is where we disagree. I dont consider that low quality of life. Nor do I think you know enough to claim confidently people do nothing through lack of ambition (Which I assume is your implication.)

And tbh, sometimes people make mistakes that make it immensely harder to recover from. Like getting a criminal record, or going into collections, or pregnancy unintended etc.

I think the concept of UBI is to provide a safety net. Not replace the need to work. Im unsure why folks keep bringing up the notion of doing nothing.

It's muddled by abusers, unfortunately. There are legitimate people using welfare to get back on their feet and those people I would shunt money towards. It's just so, so hard to separate them. I don't have a solution for that, I can't even begin to think of one.

People against UBI are the same ones jealous of welfare recipients

NightingaleMD posted...

The hours you're referencing are when I was a resident. I worked 80 hours a week most months in that three year period.

I'm an attending now. I work 120 hours a month. Huge difference in lifestyle. I get plenty of sleep nowadays.

Oh so you only work 15 days in 1 month.
Yet you look down on the poor despite you being the lazy one.

This man is really ITT scared people won't work if they get UBI, then says he only 15 days a month.

Wtf. Projection much?

WingsOfGood posted...

Oh so you only work 3 days in 1 month.
Yet you look down on the poor despite you being the lazy one.

WingsOfGood posted...

This man is really ITT scared people won't work if they get UBI, then says he only 3 days a month.

Wtf. Projection much?

Kind of curious how you got to 3 days from 120 hours, given that 120 hours is itself more than three full days.

I would have given you the benefit of the doubt that you meant 3 weeks out of every month instead of 3 days, but you repeated your point two posts in a row.

NightingaleMD posted...

It's muddled by abusers, unfortunately.

I feel you are too concerned about them?

NightingaleMD posted...

There are legitimate people using welfare to get back on their feet and those people I would shunt money towards. It's just so, so hard to separate them. I don't have a solution for that, I can't even begin to think of one.

I think it comes down to:

Help everyone, including abusers
Vs
Help nobody, including those trying

I personally value the former more. Because ultimately, more people being helped would benefit society more than ensuring abusers cant benefit.

But I digress.

s0nicfan posted...

Kind of curious how you got to 3 days from 120 hours, given that 120 hours is itself more than three full days.

I would have given you the benefit of the doubt that you meant 3 weeks out of every month instead of 3 days, but you repeated your point two posts in a row.

Yea I miscalculated.

Point still stands, seems you just worried people can live similar to you and can't have that.

Which is usually the general way these things go.

Do you got another job besides writing for those 15 days or just be lazy? Remember, writing something you don't need 15 days to do :pppp

Oh you not same guy

WingsOfGood posted...

Yea I miscalculated.

Point still stands, seems you just worried people can live similar to you and can't have that.

Which is usually the general way these things go.

Do you got another job besides writing for those 15 days or just be lazy?

Oh you not same guy

Take a deep breath and slow down. You're in such a hurry to troll that other poster that you're not even reading what you're writing or who you're even replying to.

"miscalculated?" I saw three days as well. Math is not your strong point.

No one on welfare can live similar to me. I want a high standard of living. If I wanted to live in a small condo I could easily retire today.

I just like collecting rare bourbon and traveling. I'm only working to pay for life at this point. And as I said, once the mortgage is paid I'm probably going to stop anyway. I don't need to be a billionaire or even that far into the multi millions. Everyone can decide how much money is enough for them to live off of. You also need to decide how hard to work to get there.

And 15 days of being an emergency doctor a month is very different than being a cubicle jockey...trust me I did both....

NightingaleMD posted...

I just like collecting rare bourbon and traveling.

So the goal is to be lazy at the end of the day?
Or would you continue in medicine to help people anyways?

Also, your writing. You do it for the money? Yes or no?

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Help everyone, including abusers
Vs
Help nobody, including those trying

I personally value the former more. Because ultimately, more people being helped would benefit society more than ensuring abusers cant benefit.

That is 100% the issue, I'm glad you recognize this. From there it really comes down to individual belief.

Let's take this one step further, if you don't mind.

Ohio has an evolving health policy. Like most things in this world, money dictates everything. It's fun to just say, "let's throw money at the problem" but when you're an adult you need to consider sourcing of where things come from and, critically, what the effect of that money actually is.

Drug abuse is an excellent example. We used to spend millions of dollars on opiate addiction. That funding has been slashed to bare bones now. Reason? Results. The relapse rate of opioid and alcohol abuse is over 90%. This is multifactorial but the statistics are there.

The legislators that oversee the funding of these treatment programs noticed and rephrased it differently: 90% of funding is wasted.

Now all the funding goes to prevention. The logic is more money can be spent on preventing abuse and addiction with better outcomes.

Which is, by the way, I think true. However it leaves the current addicts holding the bag. I'm not aware of a solution here.

WingsOfGood posted...

So the goal is to be lazy at the end of the day?
Or would you continue in medicine to help people anyways?

Also, your writing. You do it for the money? Yes or no?

I prefer "self sufficient" appended to "lazy" :P

My goal is only to live off of interest from my stocks and keep expenses low.

"Helping people" is a complex topic. There is a reason the burnout rate in EM is over 60% now per 2022 medscape report....

In any case I would assume you write because you want to, not the money.

Then why assume other people would not do things if they had UBI? If even you who wants to travel and enjoy bourbon after getting wealth still wants to produce something?

This is infact a trait most people share. Maybe not opoid addicts but that is another discussion.

NightingaleMD posted...

The legislators that oversee the funding of these treatment programs noticed and rephrased it differently: 90% of funding is wasted.

Now all the funding goes to prevention. The logic is more money can be spent on preventing abuse and addiction with better outcomes.

Which is, by the way, I think true. However it leaves the current addicts holding the bag. I'm not aware of a solution here.

Its funny you mention this particular thing, because I generally agree with the notion of Prevent a fire instead of trying to put one out.

Its why I personally dont agree with student loan forgiveness, for example. I think its too short sighted of a fix. The actual problem isnt being resolved. Its trying to put out a fire that already exists.

I agree it comes down to personal belief though. I personally believe UBI is a preventative measure, and while not everyone will make use of it for their own sake, I think it would overall improve the lives of people positively.

I get your concerns though, reading your points.

I definitely aint arrogant enough to claim UBI will 100% work, but Id be willing to risk it is all.

I haven't really given my opinion at all on UBI in this topic. My initial protest was TC's phrasing of it.

I do think there is a way it could be implemented. I can't articulate it, but I suspect it's possible to be done in a way to minimize fraud and distress to the needy.

It probably could be done.

NightingaleMD posted...

I haven't really given my opinion at all on UBI in this topic. My initial protest was TC's phrasing of it.

I do think there is a way it could be implemented. I can't articulate it, but I suspect it's possible to be done in a way to minimize fraud and distress to the needy.

It probably could be done.

Well if you aren't against UBI and just think I personally am lazy I will take that.

Get writing!

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Umm...landlords will raise rent regardless. If your idea is they will up the rent $2000 overnight, I don't believe even they are that stupid.

Also, landlords would get UBI too unless we put it in the law they would not. But as someone else said, then it isn't universal.

NightingaleMD posted...

I refuse to accept any handout, with the exception of med school tuition since I don't come from a rich family.

Well, so long as its ok when you do it

greyfox747 posted...

Well, so long as its ok when you do it

I'm paying it all back with 2.8% interest

Not gonna ask for, or lobby for, forgiveness. I took the loan, I'm paying it back. It's fair.

I'm 80% there and I'll have it paid off next year.

NightingaleMD posted...

Get writing!

Btw, since you are a King fan, just as an aside, King is kinda strange in this regard.
Idk if you read his book about writing but I would recommend it if you are fan of his and aspiring writer.

He has a chapter about how he had to get off of binge drinking and all that because it was becoming hard on his health and his marriage. After he did, he was no longer able to write like he had before.
Essentially, he would get black out drunk and wake up with his manuscript written lol. He had to relearn a new process that is akin to other writers when he was sober.

I never read it, but I heard it's really good.

I know details of his health history though, at least in broad strokes like you mentioned. His best writing seemed to be from the blackout drunk stages. He hit a lull with garbage like the Regulators but his mercedes work is back to form.

Huge variation in his quality but I suppose when some of what you've written is the best fiction of all time it's a high bar to consistently cross.

I see people forgot not to take nightingale seriously again.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Counter to that is that people (or a married/dating couple) could take that $2000 (assuming people will be getting $1k a month) and use it to buy their own home, build their own equity, and not worry about having a landlord.

They would then have their regular income to cover all other expenses.

BettyWhite posted...

As a person who grew up around a lot of welfare abuse, it's always been that the second you start working you lose food stamps, medicaid, housing assistance. So hustling under the table plus collecting welfare is the most advantageous position you can take. Especially when entry-level jobs essentially cause you to make less money and create more stress than the welfare/hustle combo.

I always thought you could just expand assistance and even incentivize working without the threat of losing your security. Only taking it away once you reach an actual comfortable income level.

There's no doubt that some exploitation of the welfare system does happen. No one can really deny that. The issue is that there's so much more to the unemployment spike during the pandemic than the government cutting people a check. The claim that welfare or UBI encourages laziness or raises unemployment rates is a completely baseless argument, and some research in Finland may suggest the opposite:

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector/our-insights/an-experiment-to-inform-universal-basic-income

But even they acknowledge it's a complex topic with many factors, and we can't draw any definitive conclusions about it. Nightingale just refuses to get into it any further because he knows the correlation between handouts and laziness doesn't stand up to even the tiniest bit of scrutiny.

Imagine calling people lazy while working 120 hours a month and saying you wont work after your mortgage is paid off.

Nightingale straight embarrassing himself in this topic. More proof you can have all the money in the world and still be a clown.

CanuckCowboy posted...

I see people forgot not to take nightingale seriously again.

Yeah why though?

Imagine our ancestors putting in blood sweat and tears to create and improve civilization over thousands of years so everyones can get access to the most basic needs, and yet to this day we still dont have a system that can guarantee a person wont go hungry or have access to shelter

Nobody cares about fraud until its helping poor people. Opposing UBI is just lame. We let the rich get away with evading taxes, fraud, insider trading and all kinds of shit but when its poor people getting paid everyone is angry.

Its lame. Just say you dont support it so you can feign superiority. At least I could respect that.