Board 8 > Discussing Mafia Mafia Topic 4 - On Your Knees, Cat

(+) Yeah! (+)

htaeD posted...

No wait
I am wrong again, and I keep getting it wrong
Ben voted Lopen right Before Sultan did.

I don't think that really changes anything though? I mean, Sultan doing it makes it more likely, but Ben as Scum pushes that way anyway, right?

[10] Lopen - Rana, (Sultan), Changmas, IGCD, Tidus, Kirby, Ben, Sultan, Lopen, Red, Death
[5] Han - Ulti, (Tidus), Scare, (Kirby), Masterplum, Crescent, Han, (Death)
[1] Crescent - (Ulti), Sbell
[0] Scare - Red, (Ben)
[0] IGCD - (Lopen)
[0] Mzero - (Lopen), (Changmas)
[0] Plum - (Ben)

These are all the votes
Unsure what happened with Lopen or if Bens 1st vote on Plum counts

Lopen posted...

1. To the best of your ability, explain to me how scum Crescent plays this game in contrast to what we've seen.
2. Which Crescent suspect do you like most to lynch today and why.
3. If you could force another player not among you to answer these questions who would it be.

1. I've never observed a scum Crescent game myself, but the majority of what I've seen from her doesn't appear to be outside of what I could expect from town. Non-participation/grandstanding about not wanting to answer the questions / play the King's games is very frustrating to me, but ultimately I think that's a nulltell. It's kind of weird though that if you frame asking questions as a silly game for fun it's no longer within her wheelhouse to participate even though it's hardly different from what might normally get asked during a game. But I digress.

I think the game state that's been created as a result of this situation is inherently less town-favored than a different game state that hasn't been overcentralized on Crescent, but I don't necessarily believe that's intentional on her part. She tends to fill up a lot of space in topics and that naturally pushes the game in a certain direction. That's all present in Town Crescent play too.

The one thing that has me torn is her take on me specifically. I think it's very interesting that she's insistent that I should be able to discern minute differences in her gameplay and personality / mental state and that not doing that as well undermining her scumhunt (based off of like 5 posts in the first few hours of day 1) makes me scum. But she's never explained why that's any different from what I did in the prior game, in the situation with Isquen, that I've brought up many times. I did the exact same thing to her in that game, a soft dismissal of a way too early scumhunt on flimsy evidence, but apparently the difference here isn't my behavior, it's that I should notice that her behavior is different.

I've explained many times why I feel like the situation feels the same as that of the prior game, and I've yet to receive a response that justifies why my behavior there is scumlike this game which doesn't invoke my ability to read Crescent's precise mental state (which I would never claim to be able to do). It's still possible that she's town, but this particular line of thinking has never looked like sound logic to me. A lot of people dislike how I play Day 1 and Day 2 every single game, and that's fine (I wouldn't have it any other way, actually), but that often makes scum/indy open throwing out my name early (or jumping on the train) because a lot of players will find my play distasteful. (See scum ulti in Elden Ring mafia: "There's no possible way this play could come from Town Chang after basically being town MVP last game!"). If Crescent isn't scum, someone who jumped on the train shortly after certainly is.

2. Well clearly not myself. Is SBell a Crescent suspect? I'd probably say him, if so. Ben's a little off for me as well, but not so different from his weird Day 1 play in Elden Ring mafia that I'm particularly concerned about him today. Personally I would also defer to Scare on reading Ben for now before I'd trust my own opinion.

3.

Ok I ran into a formatting issue with trying to get the #3 to appear and not turn into a 1. for some reason and accidentally posted the message with my keyboard somehow.

I'd like to hear from SBell most on those questions, but I'd like to hear from rana most overall. Has he posted anything in the past 24 hours?

Also I've noted that MZero doesn't seem to have posted today, unless I've missed it. Jotting that down mentally for when it comes time to make a read on him (likely early Day 2)

So given those votals... I can believe Death when he said he only voted for Lopen to ensure there would be a King and didn't think Han would get enough votes.

Ben already expressed he wouldn't have voted for Han (and he's an agent of chaos so naturally Lopen's propositions seemed more appealing), Rana and Changmas were MIA, no clue about IGCD and Tidus, Sultan voted to break a tie or some such, Lopen obviously voted for himself, and Red... no clue. Probably abandoned ship after seeing that Ben unvoted from Scare.

And I moved my vote to Lopen early on because I saw Ben explaining the "Hangut" thing and I didn't want to rely on gut feelings. But it seems I underestimate just how much of a reputation the "Hangut" has for its accuracy.

In which case, if Han does flip town, that immediately puts suspicion on the voters for Lopen. I'm starting to see the logic now... but I'm still wary of what happens if Han doesn't die Night 1.

UltimaterializerX posted...

So you have Ben, Death, Stu. Anyone else?

Chang was my first read of the game and if I had to kill someone the moment King was voted it proooobably would have been him.

At the very least, Lopen should be forced to kill one of the people who voted for him for King for putting us through that shit in the last topic.

Is it just me or does Hans anger and frustration over nit being king seem fake. I personally haven't seen Han play in a while but ehh idk

Han, what do you think about Red? You're suspecting Sultan for voting Lopen because he could have been following a scum Ben's orders, but looking at the votals alone, Red mimicked Ben's votes and even voted around the same time as him, being the deciding vote for electing Lopen king.

Kirby321 posted...

Okay, I found what you were talking about. I see that Lopen would not have used Crescent as leverage to make people answer his second batch of questions without your influence, and he did specifically thank you for it. I also recognize that you initially disproved of Lopen's methods until he took your advice.

I do remember all of that, now that I Ctrl + F'd my way through the topic. For that, you're right that calling out Death but not you was hypocritical of me. Heck, Death wasn't even on my radar until Han mentioned him.

Though at this point, the only person on my radar is Ben, just because I know that he knows I'm easy to sway, so I'm just being extra cautious about his actions >.>

So are you suspicious of me?

Technically red only voted after the extension started

htaeD posted...

[10] Lopen - Rana, (Sultan), Changmas, IGCD, Tidus, Kirby, Ben, Sultan, Lopen, Red, Death
[5] Han - Ulti, (Tidus), Scare, (Kirby), Masterplum, Crescent, Han, (Death)
[1] Crescent - (Ulti), Sbell
[0] Scare - Red, (Ben)
[0] IGCD - (Lopen)
[0] Mzero - (Lopen), (Changmas)
[0] Plum - (Ben)

These are all the votes
Unsure what happened with Lopen or if Bens 1st vote on Plum counts

So Miz did not vote at all, and Sbell is the only splinter

Kirby321 posted...

In any case, does anyone actually agree with Han's reasoning for why it's anti-town to not have elected him King?

No. Lol. If Chris was in the game I would King him night 1 based on being the day 1 night kill target. But nobody else

ScareChan posted...

So are you suspicious of me?

Not particularly. It seemed more to me like you were trying to direct the conversation toward something productive rather than appease Lopen.

Honestly, I think I jumped the gun on Death. I don't know why I ignored the "if you kill Crescent, I will become King and kill you" comment from Death, because that makes it glaringly obvious that my suspicion/argument held no weight to it aside from just one post out of several within that same page. I think I was just excited for the conversation to finally move away from Crescent/Lopen.

I can say this, it's reassuring that if Lopen doesn't kill me (he's not gunna, I'm fairly certain here), that I also won't get night killed what with everyone jumping on the bandwagon.

Choo Choo baby.

So if I got this right, Rana only made 4 posts all game. 1 asking who wanted to be King, 2 talking game theory and not wanting to be King himself, and then just Kinging Lopen and leaving

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Is it just me or does Hans anger and frustration over nit being king seem fake. I personally haven't seen Han play in a while but ehh idk

I'm more upset that I had to read last topic to catch up.

Kirby321 posted...

Han, what do you think about Red? You're suspecting Sultan for voting Lopen because he could have been following a scum Ben's orders, but looking at the votals alone, Red mimicked Ben's votes and even voted around the same time as him, being the deciding vote for electing Lopen king.

I'm not really suspecting Sultan. Doesn't feel like something a Scum Sultan would do.

And as for Red, I've been pretty clear on him today? He acted different than I am accustomed to him acting which made me think he's Town. His case on me is basically "Town Han has never not been suspicious of me" which is a lazy reasoning that he has to do zero legwork for and he basically only fought against me being King and has done little else.

So logically he's very Scummish, but I stand by my initial read and him prodding me early on on nothing feels like something a Scum Red would never ever do.

tl;dr Red is probably still Town but just subpar, which is in-line from what I expect from him.

ScareChan posted...

So if I got this right, Rana only made 4 posts all game. 1 asking who wanted to be King, 2 talking game theory and not wanting to be King himself, and then just Kinging Lopen and leaving

still more than ulti has done thus game.

htaeD posted...

I also feel like I should point out that Sultan was the one that enabled Ben
I am not sure what Ben would even have done otherwise

I wanted lopen. If the votes were close at all for lopen to win I was going to vote for him. My voting of scare was just to try and see if a counter lopen or han train would form that could be analyzed later

Kirby321 posted...

Not particularly. It seemed more to me like you were trying to direct the conversation toward something productive rather than appease Lopen.

Honestly, I think I jumped the gun on Death. I don't know why I ignored the "if you kill Crescent, I will become King and kill you" comment from Death, because that makes it glaringly obvious that my suspicion/argument held no weight to it aside from just one post out of several within that same page. I think I was just excited for the conversation to finally move away from Crescent/Lopen.

I appreciatie you admitting you were just looking for an excuse to be suspisious of death. Or sus. I don't like 'sus' though

Now that things are progressing more and the game feels more open, what way are you thinking?

PunishedBen posted...

No. Lol. If Chris was in the game I would King him night 1 based on being the day 1 night kill target. But nobody else

This is 100% lie, thanks for playing Ben, see you next game.

ScareChan posted...

So Miz did not vote at all, and Sbell is the only splinter

YEAH TOO BAD WE DIDN'T ELECT MZERO AS KING THAT WAS REALLY SOMETHING WE MISSED OUT ON

PunishedBen posted...

I wanted lopen. If the votes were close at all for lopen to win I was going to vote for him. My voting of scare was just to try and see if a counter lopen or han train would form that could be analyzed later

I mean, you got Red

Analyze that

So something that I have tried not to focus too much on, but it has been on my mind. Scum gain their abilities by spending points that they have to earn. The first thing I thought of when that was floated was things like 'being elected king' or having so many on to influence the vote for king. Being the person with the most votes out there for King, things like that. Post counts seem like another thing that could be a factor. Fewest posts in the day is maybe not the most likely of criteria, but it's something that will be in my mind, at the very least for today

ScareChan posted...

Fewest posts in the day is maybe not the most likely of criteria

I couldn't see Chris going with something like this. He wouldn't reward someone for playing less.

ScareChan posted...

Now that things are progressing more and the game feels more open, what way are you thinking?

I'm still a little suspicious of Han's power grab (or attempt thereof), but ugh, I'm not entirely sure anymore. I think I'll be more interested to see if Han dies Night 1 or not. Granted, it doesn't logically make sense to paint a target on his back like that and claim he's gonna die and then... doesn't die. I've never seen a scum Han, obviously, but surely he would be more low-key about it rather than turning it into the focal point of his argument.

Ben I'm wary of. I feel like I need to take notes on which posts he's responding to, because I feel like there's a pattern there. Someone else mentioned that Ben hasn't really been contributing to the discussion a whole lot (or something like that), so if he's responding as minimally as possible, something might be up there.

But if Han's theory of Ben being scum and directing other scum toward certain actions or plays is true...
You know, maybe it's time to put the spotlight on Ben.

Otherwise, I think I'd like to hear more from plum, red, and IGCD, but I'm also gonna skim through Topic 3 just to make sure I didn't miss anything.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

You want to talk facts Death, here's facts:

Not electing me King is purely anti-Town.

In my consideration of this this morning, it certainly made me reconsider Red a bit as he didn't really do anything aside from say "Not Han as King" which is purely a Scum move, but could also just be a bad move and he's not very good so

But here's what I'll give you Death. If you're not Scum, Ben certainly is.

Here's a question for you - if you are told there's an 80% chance of me getting night killed night 1, then do you think it's suspicious to vote someone else as King so that I can't get protection?

Why can't you get protection?

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Also you can edit for minor grammar fixes but if you are caught abusing this its obviously a modkill. I am a monster but grammar errors suck.

Omg thats great.

ScareChan posted...

I mean, you got Red

Analyze that

No I voted after Red to see if I could get it going, but no one voted after me.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I couldn't see Chris going with something like this. He wouldn't reward someone for playing less.

Agreed. I think they're mostly going to be rewards for more skilled play. I don't think they have to be individual either - I'm thinking something like a mislynch (or mis-kill by the team) probably earns the whole team points

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Well you'll be so happy to see me confirmed Town when I die.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because you're new, but I'm letting you know that every player in this game, unless their ego is making them act intentionally dumb, is most afraid of me as Town if they are Scum. If Scum can deny protection to me and kill me night 1, then they'll do it.

Fucking lawl. The only player I'm scared of as scum is myself, considering I've gotten myself modkilled as scum just as many times as I've been caught by anyone else.

mis-kill by the king*

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Why can't you get protection?

Because the King is given protection from everything the night after they're elected and I wasn't elected King.

Kirby321 posted...

Granted, it doesn't logically make sense to paint a target on his back like that and claim he's gonna die and then... doesn't die.

Sure it does. Can you come up with some reasons why?

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Fucking lawl. The only player I'm scared of as scum is myself, considering I've gotten myself modkilled as scum just as many times as I've been caught by anyone else.

I can read you perfectly, you know.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I couldn't see Chris going with something like this. He wouldn't reward someone for playing less.

I had that thought, but Chris is also the one that hosted the Lite game when we tried that out

it's much more likely that you're just right, it's not a thing. But the lack of posts by Rana already has me concerned.

Kirby321 posted...

In any case, does anyone actually agree with Han's reasoning for why it's anti-town to not have elected him King?

No.

Rana also might just be busy.

How many games has Rana played on Board 8?

ScareChan posted...

I had that thought, but Chris is also the one that hosted the Lite game when we tried that out

it's much more likely that you're just right, it's not a thing. But the lack of posts by Rana already has me concerned.

Scare always picks at low hanging fruit huh. I mean o agree Rana needs to contribute more but idk if concerned would be the right word

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Rana also might just be busy.

How many games has Rana played on Board 8?

2 i think

So I have half written posts like 4 times today before deciding against it, but I think we have gotten to the point where I can't just not say anything for the rest of the day.

I was strongly against Lopen from the start of his campaign, and I think his absurdly elaborate production of selecting a kill target is exactly what scum pretending to give honest consideration of every target would do. My hope was I could smile, pli, and shuffle to the back of the line to avoid lopen murdering me because I was one of the few people suspicious of him, but the way this day keeps going I don't think that is a realistic path forward at this point. If he wants to kill me he probably could with cause if I keep avoiding posting and perhaps if I am more vocal it will guarantee his lynch if he does kill me.

If I do die, I would first go after lopen obviously but then look to see who implicitly supported his lynch before eventually voting for him. That was why I was most suspicious of Red, because he was ok passively letting Lopen be king until his vote was absolutely required and then he sealed Lopen as king. I bet there are more, but I would have to reread the game and I don't have time to do that right now.

You just described Ben but went with Red

Rana is experienced at least

ScareChan posted...

You just described Ben but went with Red

Red was the hammer vote. I don't remember what Ben did, but Ben could fir that scenario as well

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Sure it does. Can you come up with some reasons why?

This is probably a bait. I think it should be obvious why it would look bad for you. Your entire argument for why you should've been King is that you would be dead Night 1, because any logical/veteran scum team would gun for you immediately. So if you don't die Night 1, that would look suspicious because you should have been dead, according to your logic.

So the only explanation would be that either the scum decided to spare you (unlikely if they truly are scared of you) or that you are scum. It wouldn't make sense for you to be the independent since you likely have no control over preventing your death (at least, I don't think I've heard of an independent with such powers). This is assuming that there aren't any shenanigans like bodyguards or roles that can swap/redirect targets.

Granted, I recognize that you were championing yourself as King long before it came down to Lopen. The major flaw in my logic is that you obviously didn't know you wouldn't be elected King, so if you were scum, vying for this gambit makes 100% sense as you would get a free pass for at least two nights if successful, since people wouldn't be suspicious of you being alive until Day 3.

However, it's still a gamble and a risky play. If you aren't elected King Day 1, then you would have made yourself look suspicious by calling attention to the fact that you should be dead on Night 1. You strike me as an analytical type who takes avid notes on the game, and I can't see this miscalculation being worth it from your perspective as a scum. Granted, I don't know you very well, so that's just speculation.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Scare always picks at low hanging fruit huh. I mean o agree Rana needs to contribute more but idk if concerned would be the right word

This last half hour or so is the first time I've even looked Rana's way

please pay more attention

To my knowledge Ulti didn't elaborate on questioning with Crescent. Specifically what makes him think she's being particularly "emotional" about this game. Crescent seems very confident to me here. Like sure I won't lynch her because she's town. She is annoying me, but no one else.

Han's annoyance about not being king resonates with me. I've frequently been killed night 1 (including last game!) and part of why I wanted to be king was a guarantee I'd be able to play day 2. I'm not convinced he does today any better than I would in terms of content as I think this day has been pretty useful as it went along.

Do think that Deaths reaction of "the silence being telling" is... interesting. I really don't want to lynch him today though. I feel I need to give him a chance to play after killing Lassie. Poor Lassie.

I agree Rana super phoning things in currently, even if he was one of my first supporters

Rana is ordered to cast a massacre vote on someone and justify the vote. Penalty will be decided later.

I do intend to answer my own questions. Would like to see my answers beforehand. Did Mzero answer the questions? I don't see them.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

At the very least, Lopen should be forced to kill one of the people who voted for him for King for putting us through that shit in the last topic.

Denied.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Denied.

Goes without saying!

Still trying to figure out of Plum is genuinely over paranoid this game or has been keeping up the fake paranoia charade since before Lopen was even on the tip of anyone's tongue. It's been consistent and i dont like it

Who all wanted us to have a standard vote when the king was elected

I gave you all a chance to cast votes for fun to influence my decision and literally no one has. I don't like that literally no one has. Death and Plum were talking about it I think. Red said it was tactically sound but no fun zone I think. Uhhh