Board 8 > I don't think I've ever read a comic book where the Avengers weren't fucking up.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Just reading a comic right now where the Avengers are royally screwing a situation up like always, and it's occurred to me that I have never once seen this team actually being heroic or saving the day even once outside of the movies.

And to be fair, this is partially my fault. I've read hundreds of Marvel comics but never Avengers proper. But obviously they show up a lot, because they're the fucking Avengers.

But, straight up, literally ever Avengers appearance I have ever seen is one of the following:

• Fighting amongst themselves
• Tricked into fighting someone they shouldn't be/Following the orders of a bad guy without realizing it
• Causing accidental destruction
• Causing INTENTIONAL destruction "because they didn't have a choice"
• Losing
• Winning, but it was a fight they shouldn't have been fighting in the first place, and them winning is actually bad

It is a quagmire of incompetence.

Batman?

UshiromiyaEva posted...

even once outside of the movies.

Haha you could even say in the movies as well

BetrayedTangy posted...

Haha you could even say in the movies as well

I mean...yeah I guess you're right.

Except the first one, I thought, but they fought there too huh?

Kurt Busiek is the only one who I think ever let the Avengers truly be an admirable super-team. But that's all right, I suppose. At least there are real heroes out there like the Exiles who will clean up after the Avengers once their mistakes get too big to bring down on their own.

When I was reading Hickman FF, the team obviously had some ISSUES but boy did it ever feel like a more genuinely heroic team when it needed to be.

I haven't read much FF outside of his legendary run, but based off of that it feels like they were closer to being Marvel's JL than The Avengers are.

The Avengers are the Justice League in that they're solos cobbled together into a club of heroes. But that's kind of where the comparison honestly ends, unless you have the right writers on the book.

True, but I find it funny that when JL had a story about one of the members betraying the trust of the team and royally fucking everything up, it stood out so much that it became one of the most famous stories the book has ever seen.

With Avengers that just seems to be the day to day.

But that's the point, isn't it? And even in that betrayal of trust, there was reason and purpose. And Jesus, that story is so phenomenal because it IS unique. You never get a better moment than Plastic Man casting his vote. PLASTIC MAN.

I think that's why I've always preferred the JLA and JSA to the Avengers; the Avengers reach the point of melodrama, and the arguments in the League always felt... headier. More steeped in serious stakes.

Not that I dislike melodrama. But I think there's a reason it's never better than in Ultimate Spider-Man - it's for the kids.

Exactly. I want my super teams to feel like they have a connection, like a family. JSA, especially the Johns era, was a defining comic book in my life and effects how I view the entire superhero comic industry.

Totally the same for me! I think Johns' JSA (and Starman/Golden Age, which are definitely the prototypes for his run) stack up together as the perfect balance for what a super-team should be. And he doesn't dismiss the drama either. Hell, Stargirl/Captain Marvel remains a hilarious little side plotline that gets into the melodrama without being overwrought, I guess? Earth 2 never really filled the JSA void for me.

Meanwhile here I am reading The Immortal Hulk, which brought his topic on. Mainly a part near the end but it was an early scene that started it in my mind. INCREDIBLE series, one of the best runs I've ever read. Reminded me of what it was like when I read John's GL, though obviously the tone is super different: A story that establishes a new status quo for a character that had been faultering for years, completely establishes a new set of lore and rules, pulls HEAVILY form past stories and characters while never once making you feel like you have to go read or ever look up that stuff to follow along and enjoy it.

...Got on a tangent there. Anyways.

Early on, Avengers get involved. Fight the Hulk. Didn't honestly have a reason to fight the Hulk, just them punching first and asking questions later. Getting their ASS beat. They could literally just leave. Instead, Tony NUKES A TOWN IN IOWA TO TAKE HULK OUT. DESTRUCTION HUNDREDS OF TIMES MORE THAN WHAT HULK HAD DONE SINCE THE RUN STARTED. Literally annihilated the entire livliehoods of thousands of people.

"Had to be done."

Fuck offffff Tony.

Yeah, the avengers were always supposed to be dumb in the comics

The series was a holding tank for characters that might deserve their own comic in the future

The mcu avengers have been fulfilling the role of the marvel comics fantastic four

You kind of need interpersonal conflict for the sake of a compelling story. A team that never makes mistakes is going to make for really dull drama. They need to be able to grow and overcome some personal demons.

Granted, this is not easy to do and writers screw it up very easily, but I understand the mentality.